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Canon 200-800?

IndyFab
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p.11 #1 · p.11 #1 · Canon 200-800?

F stop advantage goes to the 100 -500 @ 472 @ 6.3

Anything past 268 on the 200-800 and your @ 7.1 >>> Best used in good light !!

Nov 03, 2023 at 10:59 PM

crisdesign
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p.11 #2 · p.11 #2 · Canon 200-800?

Not to mention 600mm or 800mm 6.3 in nikon land but I can’t really understand this lens. I would have preferred a high performance crop body (7d2 mirrorless if you like) to pair with a 100-500 to get to 800mm than having a lens which is heavier, without a focus limiter and 7.1 for most of it’s range.

Nov 04, 2023 at 07:17 AM

OwlsEyes
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p.11 #3 · p.11 #3 · Canon 200-800?

From a Nikon shooter's perspective, I see this lens in the following way:
1. It is a competitive move to capture nature and sports photographers. Canon now has the least expensive pathway into serious "birder" photography. I always felt that the Nikon gear was a bargain, but it is still significantly more expensive than Canon's offering into ultra-telephoto lenses with high quality AF and build. Somebody wanting to get into wildlife photography using mirrorless gear now can: a. Go with Fuji w/ XH2s + 150-600 at a moderate price and moderate AF performance : B. Go with Nikon with a 180-600 + Z8 at a moderate to high price (bc the AF in other bodies are limited) : C. Go with Sony with a 200-600 w/ A1/A9ii/A?r (at a moderated to very high price) : D. Go with Canon with a 200-800 + R7 for around $3500.
For people who enjoy travel for wildlife photography... safaris, tropics, Yellowstone, etc... this is a small price to pay relative to the other systems. Pair this with a kit lens or 24-105 f/4 and you are done.

2: It is a gateway drug for Canon shooters. The 200-800 may be enough to pull a chunk of EF / DSLR shooters into the R-system and give photographers a taste of working with RF glass.

While the lens is not for me, I can already see that this will be a high-volume sale lens for Canon.

bruce

Nov 04, 2023 at 07:32 AM

alundeb
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p.11 #4 · p.11 #4 · Canon 200-800?

crisdesign wrote:
Not to mention 600mm or 800mm 6.3 in nikon land but I can’t really understand this lens. I would have preferred a high performance crop body (7d2 mirrorless if you like) to pair with a 100-500 to get to 800mm than having a lens which is heavier, without a focus limiter and 7.1 for most of it’s range.
If you factor in equivalent apertures, 500 mm f/7.1 on 1.6 crop is equivalent to 800 mm f/11 on FF. The 200-800 on FF gathers more light than the 100-500 on crop by 2/3 to 1/3 stops throughout the range. Naturally, since it is bigger and heavier.

Nov 04, 2023 at 09:11 AM

steamtrain
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p.11 #5 · p.11 #5 · Canon 200-800?

Mike_5D wrote:
I'm not printing for galleries, mainly screens and smaller prints. I took a few test shots, cropped the 400mm shot to match the FOV of the 800mm shot, exported both from LR at full res (so the 400mm shot got enlarged), and viewed them side by side on my dual 27" 1440p displays. The 800mm shot was a touch softer with lower contrast. Maybe I had a bad 800 or an exceptional 100-400, but if the 800/11 doesn't soundly beat just cropping the lens I already own, I'd rather save my money.
If it doesn't satisfy your eyes >> save the money, weight and lens changes.

For me for birds 400mm isn't long enough. 600mm is too expensive or so diffraction limited it doesn't do much over 400mm, and at 800mm you really need the option to zoom wider for enough convenience when trying to get the subject in the frame.

I think the new 200-800mm does a lot of things better. It's f/9.0 in stead of f/11, it zooms (considerably) wider, it doesn't cost as much as the 100-500mm + f/1.4 extender. Oh, and on the R5 it will likely give AF across the frame.

I'm not a heavy telephoto addict, but if I would invest in anything heavy telephoto it would likely be the 200-800mm.

Nov 04, 2023 at 09:13 AM

lighthound
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p.11 #6 · p.11 #6 · Canon 200-800?

IndyFab wrote:
F stop advantage goes to the 100 -500 @ 472 @ 6.3

Anything past 268 on the 200-800 and your @ 7.1 >>> Best used in good light !!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53308112156_76eb66d375_o.jpg

I agree that it's best to use this new lens in good light, however the real world differences will not be all that significant as it looks on paper.
Here's a comment I left on another thread that explains my reasoning for choosing this lens over the 100-500.

If the IQ of this lens is nearly as good as the 100-500 such that it's difficult to see without pixel peeping, why would anyone choose the 100-500 over this lens considering the three major advantages of lower cost, 200mm longer reach and no need for a TC. Yes, this lens might be considered slow by some, but the speeds are so close at the various focal lengths that in real world situations there will be negligible differences.
It's not like the 100-500 is some kind of Bokeh dream lens, so that's not even a concern. I'm personally a Bokeh whore so when I pick-up my 100-500 rather than my 500II, I'm already prepared for the challenges that a "slow" lens presents.
And perhaps the IS + IBIS combination (especially with future body designs) this lens could allow for a slightly slower shutter speed in low light situations such that it would eliminate the need for an ISO shift.

IDK, the more I think about it, the more appealing the lens is getting, especially at the price. With the high ISO capabilities we are already enjoying with our current RF Canon bodies plus the huge improvements in NR softwares recently, these slightly slower lenses aren't as big of deal as they were just a few years ago in the DSLR days. And that's not even considering the high ISO and AF improvements in Canon bodies in future releases.

Here's an ISO 25,600 out of the R5 as an example.

Hungry boy

Nov 04, 2023 at 10:24 AM

AmbientMike
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p.11 #7 · p.11 #7 · Canon 200-800?

I'd almost certainly be using this or f/11 lenses in "poor light," in the forest. I already use the 55-250 there, and usually use it at 7.1 to improve performance.

1/50 is my semi-arbitrary cutoff on that lens shooting several to get a sharp one. If 1/30 is doable like it looks like on the f/11 800mm, there's the 2/3 stop to f/9, right there

And 12800 on FF should beat 6400 on the aps like I currently use. 25600 should be possible. So there's another stop or 2 so it should be pretty doable

Nov 04, 2023 at 12:16 PM

Z250SA
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p.11 #8 · p.11 #8 · Canon 200-800?

OwlsEyes wrote:
...
D. Go with Canon with a 200-800 + R7 for around $3500.
...
2: It is a gateway drug for Canon shooters. The 200-800 may be enough to pull a chunk of EF / DSLR shooters into the R-system and give photographers a taste of working with RF glass.

While the lens is not for me, I can already see that this will be a high-volume sale lens for Canon.

bruce

It should be noted that the 200-800 will have a 320-1280mm field of view on the crop R7. As I have used the 800/11 on the R7, I can report that 1280mm is hilariously narrow, "enhances" anything +-vertical in the background, foreground and subject by tilting it hilariously if any movement during exposure, and exponentificate heat shimmer making any nice capture a hilarious mush. But when it is a hit, there are lots of pixels per duck! If you managed to find the duck in time for the exposure.

But the 200-800 will be _so_ perfect on my R5. Furthermore it will balance my gear in a way that makes the 200-800 a must have and not only GAS. Last spring I found myself leaving the R5 at home as the R7 with 100-500 FoV 160-800 was spot on for BIF and all tele work from my small expedition boat (10ft, 9.9hp Mariner). The 24-105 STM on my RP took care of the vide end as well as the documentation needs in the many, short and rocky landings for biology stuff. Leaving the R5 at home when visiting the closest to Heaven I have here on this planet... hilariously silly! And now Canon bring me the 200-800, the best focal length, to the best camera I have ever used.

For me the 200-800 is perfect when I have amputated the bloody foot with my 2600W Metabo angle grinder!

Nov 04, 2023 at 12:29 PM

Mike_5D
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p.11 #9 · p.11 #9 · Canon 200-800?

AmbientMike wrote:
I'd almost certainly be using this or f/11 lenses in "poor light," in the forest. I already use the 55-250 there, and usually use it at 7.1 to improve performance.

1/50 is my semi-arbitrary cutoff on that lens shooting several to get a sharp one. If 1/30 is doable like it looks like on the f/11 800mm, there's the 2/3 stop to f/9, right there

And 12800 on FF should beat 6400 on the aps like I currently use. 25600 should be possible. So there's another stop or 2 so it should be pretty doable

And ISO performance and noise reduction will only continue to improve over time. Lenses are designed for the long haul. 10 years from now when ISO 51k looks like ISO 12,800 does today, f/9 will be less of an issue. Even the big aperture look is being faked today and I'm sure will eventually be baked into SOOC jpegs.

Nov 04, 2023 at 02:12 PM

melcat
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p.11 #10 · p.11 #10 · Canon 200-800?

lighthound wrote:
If the IQ of this lens is nearly as good as the 100-500 such that it's difficult to see without pixel peeping, why would anyone choose the 100-500 over this lens considering the three major advantages of lower cost, 200mm longer reach and no need for a TC.

Because it zooms out to 100mm.

I regard the 100–{400,500}mm and 200–{600,800}mm lenses as two different classes of lens. An example where you’d want the 100–400mm is shooting from a Zodiac in Antarctica, where you’re quickly switching between landscapes and seals. (Somehow, I brought back many admired photos with 180mm as my longest lens down there; 400mm would get you lots of shots.) In other situations – for example on some safaris – you want the extra length and don’t need or are prepared to forgo the wider focal lengths, and for that the 200–600mm class is more suitable.

Sony still offer their 100–400mm lens for one purpose, and their 200–600mm for the other. Nikon also offer the two. Canon up to now had one and not the other, and for some reason people bought into the system wanting the 200–600mm class when only the 100–400mm was available.

I bought the EF 100–400mm II and later the RF 100–500mm because that’s the class of lens I need. Occasionally I do the type of shooting where the 200–600mm class would be better, and for that a teleconverter on the lens I do have will have to do. It’s really no different from someone who rarely takes formal portraits pressing into service their 70–200mm f/4 rather than going out and buying an 85mm f/1.2 for the few times they do.

Edited on Nov 04, 2023 at 09:54 PM · View previous versions

Nov 04, 2023 at 04:31 PM

melcat
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p.11 #11 · p.11 #11 · Canon 200-800?

Mike_5D wrote:
And ISO performance and noise reduction will only continue to improve over time.

ISO performance has got about as good as it ever will, because most of the noise with modern sensors is shot noise, a physical property of light itself.

AI noise reduction may continue developing, but I predict a backlash against its use once it starts producing obviously made-up results.

Nov 04, 2023 at 04:40 PM

lighthound
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p.11 #12 · p.11 #12 · Canon 200-800?

melcat wrote:
Because it zooms out to 100mm.

I regard the 100–{400,500}mm and 200–{600,800}mm lenses as two different classes of lens. An example where you’d want the 100–400mm is shooting from a Zodiac in Antarctica, where you’re quickly switching between landscapes and seals. (Somehow, I brought make many admired photos with 180mm as my longest lens down there; 400mm would get you lots of shots.) In other situations – for example on some safaris – you want the extra length and don’t need or are prepared to forgo the wider focal lengths, and for that the 200–600mm class is more suitable.

Sony still offer...Show more →

Yes, I suppose for those that shoot from a Zodiac in Antarctica, 100mm might be useful. I however don't ever plan on ever shooting from Zodiac in Antarctica.

On a serious note. I just dug through thousands of images on my system that I've taken in the past 2 or 3 years. I found 5 wildlife photos shot at 100mm and about 35 shot at 200 or slightly less. Clearly the 100-200 focal range is nearly meaningless for my type of shooting. That said, everyone is different and has different subjects and environments in which to shoot in, so as you point out, there are now RF tools for everyone to choose from based on their needs.

Nov 04, 2023 at 05:53 PM

melcat
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p.11 #13 · p.11 #13 · Canon 200-800?

A gentle reminder: 95mm filter diameter (same as the Sony 200–600mm).

B+W MRC-nano Master C-POL from B&H New York, including GST but not shipping: $541 AUD.
Pre-order price for the Canon 200–800 from large online Australian retailer: $3489 AUD.

The filter is 15% of the price of the lens, or 13% of the lens and filter together. There are cheaper C-POLs, I just priced the same model I already have in other diameters.

I find a polarizer very useful with waterbirds, although you need even higher ISO with a slow lens.

(My RF 100–500mm takes 77mm, which I already had.)

Nov 05, 2023 at 12:22 AM

Ferrophot
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p.11 #14 · p.11 #14 · Canon 200-800?

I think this lens will be a great seller for Canon, maybe not as popular as the 100-400L IS but as an entry into birds and distant wildlife it will attract a large group of enthusiasts who cannot afford the thousands of dollars for a big white. A lot of wild birds are very skittish and this lens will allow bigger images in the frame than the budget 150-600s. As someone who has a 150-600, and often finds this too short, the 200-800 looks good to me. Angst over the f9 aperture, that is a compromise for cost and handling, will be accepted especially by those with the lower resolution FF R series cameras. I'm looking forward to the real life test reports.

Nov 05, 2023 at 02:00 AM

cpe1991
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p.11 #15 · p.11 #15 · Canon 200-800?

melcat wrote:
ISO performance has got about as good as it ever will, because most of the noise with modern sensors is shot noise, a physical property of light itself.

AI noise reduction may continue developing, but I predict a backlash against its use once it starts producing obviously made-up results.

True, but what has improved remarkably is noise reduction software that removes noise with minimal effects on detail. Iso 10k on the R5 is happily usable now.

Nov 05, 2023 at 03:24 AM

alundeb
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p.11 #16 · p.11 #16 · Canon 200-800?

melcat wrote:
Because it zooms out to 100mm.

I regard the 100–{400,500}mm and 200–{600,800}mm lenses as two different classes of lens. An example where you’d want the 100–400mm is shooting from a Zodiac in Antarctica, where you’re quickly switching between landscapes and seals. (Somehow, I brought back many admired photos with 180mm as my longest lens down there; 400mm would get you lots of shots.) In other situations – for example on some safaris – you want the extra length and don’t need or are prepared to forgo the wider focal lengths, and for that the 200–600mm class is more suitable.

Sony still offer...Show more →

+1

The 100-400/500 L lenses are excellent landscape and general purpose lenses on a FF body, something the 150/200 - 600/800 class will never be. Not only because of the important 100-150 mm range, but also because of the optical characteristics.
The 100-400/500 have less CA/astigmatism giving better consistency across the frame, and better coatings. These characteristics are more important for landscape use than for wildlife.

Nov 05, 2023 at 04:42 AM

alundeb
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p.11 #17 · p.11 #17 · Canon 200-800?

IndyFab wrote:
F stop advantage goes to the 100 -500 @ 472 @ 6.3

Anything past 268 on the 200-800 and your @ 7.1 >>> Best used in good light !!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53308112156_76eb66d375_o.jpg
True, but it is not like the 100-500 is a low light champion at shorter focal lengths either. Luckily, I still have my EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS II. In low light where I would have to lower my reach ambitions anyway, it is nice to have 200 mm f/2.8 or 280 mm f/4

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:02 AM

Zenon Char
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p.11 #18 · p.11 #18 · Canon 200-800?

Ferrophot wrote:
I think this lens will be a great seller for Canon, maybe not as popular as the 100-400L IS but as an entry into birds and distant wildlife it will attract a large group of enthusiasts who cannot afford the thousands of dollars for a big white. A lot of wild birds are very skittish and this lens will allow bigger images in the frame than the budget 150-600s. As someone who has a 150-600, and often finds this too short, the 200-800 looks good to me. Angst over the f9 aperture, that is a compromise for cost and handling,...Show more →

It will fly off the shelves.

Nov 05, 2023 at 07:03 AM

IndyFab
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p.11 #19 · p.11 #19 · Canon 200-800?

If any one used the 100-400 V1, the best thing about that lens was the way it zooms with the push/pull vs twist. As I mentioned in a earlier post, it will be a lot of twisting with the new 200-800 that will cost you missed shots.

Canon, bring back the smooth push/pull zoom !!

Nov 05, 2023 at 09:11 AM

Zenon Char
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p.11 #20 · p.11 #20 · Canon 200-800?

IndyFab wrote:
If any one used the 100-400 V1, the best thing about that lens was the way it zooms with the push/pull vs twist. As I mentioned in a earlier post, it will be a lot of twisting with the new 200-800 that will cost you missed shots.

Canon, bring back the smooth push/pull zoom !!

Wonder why they stopped using that design?

Nov 05, 2023 at 11:07 AM

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