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Nikon Plena

  
 
swifty168
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p.18 #1 · p.18 #1 · Nikon Plena




AcuteShadows wrote:
Sure. But the Digaron-W does not use the F mount - and the data sheet also shows the 1-cos4 illumination curve, which is quite hard to beat at f/4, and more so at f/1.4.

Sorry, was referring to Otus and Milvus before. I’m not familiar with the Digaron but a quick glimpse shows it has a very large image circle and a pretty long flange back which means it can be adapted to Z mount. Would it still show much vignetting on a 24x36mm frame?
One lazy way of reducing vignetting is just to use a much larger image circle than necessary so any FF lens adapted to a smaller format like m43 or DX basically cuts away the peripheral circle.
But f/4 is not particularly challenging and most 135 format lenses don’t vignette much after stopping down to f/4 and smaller anyways so the challenge would be a relatively fast aperture of course.
But again you could still be lazy and adapt eg. an already fast FF lens design onto a much smaller format like m43 with a speedbooster/reducer adapter and boost the f-number whilst still cutting out some vignettes on the periphery.
But these make the lens unnecessarily large and I doubt that’s what Plena is about but just saying there are many ways to achieving things. It just depends what the designer’s objectives are.



Oct 05, 2023 at 07:20 AM
AcuteShadows
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p.18 #2 · p.18 #2 · Nikon Plena


swifty168 wrote:
Sorry, was referring to Otus and Milvus before. I’m not familiar with the Digaron but a quick glimpse shows it has a very large image circle and a pretty long flange back which means it can be adapted to Z mount. Would it still show much vignetting on a 24x36mm frame?
One lazy way of reducing vignetting is just to use a much larger image circle than necessary so any FF lens adapted to a smaller format like m43 or DX basically cuts away the peripheral circle.
But f/4 is not particularly challenging and most 135 format lenses don’t vignette much after
...Show more

Optical vignetting depends - in the first approximation - on the angle of the chief ray and the optical axes. So a larger image circle in and of itself cannot eliminate that kind of vignetting. As for the Digaron-W, the vignetting at the FX corner is much less that on the edge of the image circle, but still significant - I would suspect any vignetting for a 24mm f/1.4 lens to be quite a bit higher than the 1-cos(angle of ray)^4 formula would suggest. The actual vignetting of the Digaron-W, as well as the 1-cos^4 baseline curve, is shown on the Rodenstock website (click on "Performance Diagrams").

While there may exist an adapter for the Digaron to Nikon Z mount somewhere, that lens is supposed to be used with a technical camera or view camera, with a digital back.



Oct 05, 2023 at 07:42 AM
swifty168
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p.18 #3 · p.18 #3 · Nikon Plena




AcuteShadows wrote:
Optical vignetting depends - in the first approximation - on the angle of the chief ray and the optical axes. So a larger image circle in and of itself cannot eliminate that kind of vignetting. As for the Digaron-W, the vignetting at the FX corner is much less that on the edge of the image circle, but still significant - I would suspect any vignetting for a 24mm f/1.4 lens to be quite a bit higher than the 1-cos(angle of ray)^4 formula would suggest. The actual vignetting of the Digaron-W, as well as the 1-cos^4 baseline curve, is shown on
...Show more
I’m not familiar with the 1 cos (ray angle)^4 formula so thanks for pointing it out and something for me to read up on.
But do you mind doing a quick explanation?
Which ray angle is it referring to?
And I guess I should just clarify I was only referring to light fall off vignette vs cat’s eye vignette which I guess might have some relation but it’s beyond my understanding.



Oct 05, 2023 at 08:22 AM
AcuteShadows
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p.18 #4 · p.18 #4 · Nikon Plena


swifty168 wrote:
I’m not familiar with the 1 cos (ray angle)^4 formula so thanks for pointing it out and something for me to read up on.
But do you mind doing a quick explanation?
Which ray angle is it referring to?
And I guess I should just clarify I was only referring to light fall off vignette vs cat’s eye vignette which I guess might have some relation but it’s beyond my understanding.


The ray angle is the angle of the chief ray and the optical axes. The chief ray travels along the axis of the cone of light rays that hit the sensor at a given location.

The formula refers to optical vignetting only, i.e. without the effect of any obstacles that are in the way of a bundle of rays that hit the sensor (or some other plane parallel to the sensor, in the case of bokeh) at a given location.

As a very brief illustration, consider a bundle of parallel light rays hitting a plane surface at an angle. The larger the angle of incidence (between a straight line perpendicular to the surface and the light ray that hits the surface at the intersection of that line with the surface), the lower is the number of light rays that hit a given area of the surface, resulting in lower illumination.



Oct 05, 2023 at 09:08 AM
1bwana1
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p.18 #5 · p.18 #5 · Nikon Plena


If you don't want to get tangled up the formulas, the applications of Snell's law, the effects of RI differences, and dispersion differences, then think of it this way:

Take a look at a full frame image from any of your lenses, at any aperture, and whatever background you are interested in for Bokeh. Then cut the image to approximately the APS-C frame area. You will likely see less vignetting, less aberrations, rounder smoother bokeh, less sharpness fall of toward the edges of that new frame. Just look at the MTF charts for the effect of this on sharpness and aberrations, and the light fall off charts for vignetting. It is easy to see the improvements.

This is the core concept of how the Plena works. The Plena was designed to project a significantly larger image circle than standard full frame lenses do. The sensor of course only shows a crop out of the middle therefore reducing all these aberrations in the FF image.

The above greatly oversimplifies the engineering that Nikon has put into this lens. The large Z mount diameter is an advantage when using this approach to a lens design. Further, Nikon has optimized its elements to take best advantage of this core concept. That includes the use of SR glass elements (I think these are Nikon proprietary and this is only the second lens to have them) that bias the diffraction at the blue end of the spectrum. This reduces aberrations cause by the greater bending of light required to produce the larger image circle.

Other lenses have used the larger image circle concept previously. Still, I think overall the Plena is a innovative lens that delivers some visible differences from standard designs. It will produce a distinct visual esthetic under some circumstances.

Once it is out and available I would be interesting to see how close we could come to creating a similar visual signature with other high quality full frame lenses cropped to a smaller image circle. I am thinking we could get close. This could become another shooting technique in our tool kits. Especially when applied to the very high resolution full frame image sensor cameras.

I find this approach interesting. I have experimented with it briefly on some existing shots, and it does produce round bokeh balls, no vignetting, no CA, and even sharpness across the new frame. This of course is not a meaningful comparison. We will need to shoot the exact same scene framed to the exact same crop, with the exact same f/stop to really see how close we can get. It has potential however.



Oct 05, 2023 at 11:00 AM
agrumpyoldsod
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p.18 #6 · p.18 #6 · Nikon Plena


BSPhotog wrote:
So I have heard the point made already about the large rear element and likely larger image circle coming off the back of the lens. I am already wondering how this will look adapted to a medium format body.


The challenge would be the fact it uses focus by wire and electronic aperture control.
Have you been able to adapt other Nikkor Z lenses to a X2D or GFX-100?



Oct 05, 2023 at 11:59 AM
Vento
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p.18 #7 · p.18 #7 · Nikon Plena


NR posted a link to some sample photos (Nef) taken with the new Nikkor Z 135mm f/1.8 S Plena lens on Nikon Z8 and Zf cameras.
So if you want to get a first, fleeting impression.
In any case, you can see the potential, even if these are mostly snapshots.

https://nikonrumors.com/2023/10/05/sample-photos-taken-with-the-new-nikkor-z-135mm-f-1-8-s-plena-lens-on-nikon-z8-and-zf-cameras.aspx/

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-49QU9PpMhZ2bbbLeP3CKfhMyY9fSysZ



Oct 05, 2023 at 12:09 PM
lukemeup
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p.18 #8 · p.18 #8 · Nikon Plena


Vento wrote:
NR posted a link to some sample photos (Nef) taken with the new Nikkor Z 135mm f/1.8 S Plena lens on Nikon Z8 and Zf cameras.
So if you want to get a first, fleeting impression.
In any case, you can see the potential, even if these are mostly snapshots.

https://nikonrumors.com/2023/10/05/sample-photos-taken-with-the-new-nikkor-z-135mm-f-1-8-s-plena-lens-on-nikon-z8-and-zf-cameras.aspx/

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-49QU9PpMhZ2bbbLeP3CKfhMyY9fSysZ


The photos of the child look pretty damn amazing to my eyes.



Oct 05, 2023 at 02:56 PM
swifty168
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p.18 #9 · p.18 #9 · Nikon Plena




1bwana1 wrote:
If you don't want to get tangled up the formulas, the applications of Snell's law, the effects of RI differences, and dispersion differences, then think of it this way:

Take a look at a full frame image from any of your lenses, at any aperture, and whatever background you are interested in for Bokeh. Then cut the image to approximately the APS-C frame area. You will likely see less vignetting, less aberrations, rounder smoother bokeh, less sharpness fall of toward the edges of that new frame. Just look at the MTF charts for the effect of this on sharpness and aberrations,
...Show more
Do we know that’s what’s happening with the Plena though?
My first conjecture when we were all guessing what Plena meant was that it was indeed projecting a larger image circle than necessary and may even be possible to be used with a theoretical a tilt-shift adapter.
But it was pointed out to me that whilst the image circle may be larger, it isn’t necessarily the case. And I do recall tests in the past looking at image circles (shooting lenses for APS-C on FF sensors) that showed some significant variations in characteristics of peripheral light fall off. Some are almost hard edged but far more evenly illuminated in its intended image format area and some gradually faded. The Nikon DX 35m f/1.8G comes to mind.

I get what’s happening cropping a smaller imaging area from a larger image circle which is what I was proposing as one method for the wide Plena like lens using the Diagaron lens as an example that Acuteshadow mentioned.



Oct 05, 2023 at 05:20 PM
1bwana1
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p.18 #10 · p.18 #10 · Nikon Plena


swifty168 wrote:
Do we know that’s what’s happening with the Plena though?
My first conjecture when we were all guessing what Plena meant was that it was indeed projecting a larger image circle than necessary and may even be possible to be used with a theoretical a tilt-shift adapter.
But it was pointed out to me that whilst the image circle may be larger, it isn’t necessarily the case. And I do recall tests in the past looking at image circles (shooting lenses for APS-C on FF sensors) that showed some significant variations in characteristics of peripheral light fall off. Some are almost hard
...Show more

Yes, we know for certain that this is the core principle behind the Plena design. It is confirmed by Nikon here in this video. That doesn't diminish Nikons achievement in bringing this lens to market. There are lots of optimizations done to achieve maximum performance from this concept. IT also should be recognized that out of the major full frame mounts the large diameter of the z mount is probably the best one to implement it on.

Enjoy the video. Good information an many things in it.






Oct 05, 2023 at 05:27 PM
 


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swifty168
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p.18 #11 · p.18 #11 · Nikon Plena




1bwana1 wrote:
Yes, we know for certain that this is the core principle behind the Plena design. It is confirmed by Nikon here in this video. That doesn't diminish Nikons achievement in bringing this lens to market. There are lots of optimizations done to achieve maximum performance from this concept. IT also should be recognized that out of the major full frame mounts the large diameter of the z mount is probably the best one to implement it on.

Enjoy the video. Good information an many things in it.




Have not seen this particular vid. Thanks



Oct 05, 2023 at 05:34 PM
swifty168
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p.18 #12 · p.18 #12 · Nikon Plena




Vento wrote:
NR posted a link to some sample photos (Nef) taken with the new Nikkor Z 135mm f/1.8 S Plena lens on Nikon Z8 and Zf cameras.
So if you want to get a first, fleeting impression.
In any case, you can see the potential, even if these are mostly snapshots.

https://nikonrumors.com/2023/10/05/sample-photos-taken-with-the-new-nikkor-z-135mm-f-1-8-s-plena-lens-on-nikon-z8-and-zf-cameras.aspx/

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-49QU9PpMhZ2bbbLeP3CKfhMyY9fSysZ

The pigeon shot is particularly interesting to me in terms of the focus transition. Comparing to the Z85 f/1.2 it appears smoother and more appealing to my eye but hard to know for sure without a real side by side.
There’s a recent shot of a cat in the Z 85 f/1.2 thread that would be a close approximation but that was shot even closer so is at a greater disadvantage (from focus transition POV).
I’ll link one of mine of the 105E:

Again not really a fair comparison as my subject was further away but the 105E has excellent focus transition characteristics.



Oct 05, 2023 at 05:40 PM
patotts
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p.18 #13 · p.18 #13 · Nikon Plena


I got to test the Plena today (as well as the Zf) at a local AD who had a Nikon rep there. It seems to everything we all hoped it to be. It is a lot of moolah but if I was a pro, I'd buy it right away.


Oct 05, 2023 at 07:12 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.18 #14 · p.18 #14 · Nikon Plena


1bwana1 wrote:
If you don't want to get tangled up the formulas, the applications of Snell's law, the effects of RI differences, and dispersion differences, then think of it this way:

Take a look at a full frame image from any of your lenses, at any aperture, and whatever background you are interested in for Bokeh. Then cut the image to approximately the APS-C frame area. You will likely see less vignetting, less aberrations, rounder smoother bokeh, less sharpness fall of toward the edges of that new frame. Just look at the MTF charts for the effect of this on sharpness and aberrations,
...Show more

I don't know the actual optical design of the Plena, but a lens that merely enlarges the image circle to achieve the desired effect would be probably much larger than the Plena.

Very likely, the optical design combines several concepts, including image-space telecentricity. The Z mount and the small flange distance probably enable the lens to achieve this easier and in a smaller package.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecentric_lens#Image-space_telecentric_lenses



Oct 05, 2023 at 07:16 PM
1bwana1
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p.18 #15 · p.18 #15 · Nikon Plena


AcuteShadows wrote:
I don't know the actual optical design of the Plena, but a lens that merely enlarges the image circle to achieve the desired effect would be probably much larger than the Plena.

Very likely, the optical design combines several concepts, including image-space telecentricity. The Z mount and the small flange distance probably enable the lens to achieve this easier and in a smaller package.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecentric_lens#Image-space_telecentric_lenses


For sure some advanced engineering went ito optimizing the Plena. I doubt this involved image-space telecentricity which is used to ensure the same sized image no matter the focal distance. The Plena does exhibit some breathing according to test I have seen.




Oct 05, 2023 at 07:59 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.18 #16 · p.18 #16 · Nikon Plena


1bwana1 wrote:
For sure some advanced engineering went ito optimizing the Plena. I doubt this involved image-space telecentricity which is used to ensure the same sized image no matter the focal distance. The Plena does exhibit some breathing according to test I have seen.



The lens would not make use of telecentricity not because it is supposed to be a telecentric lens, but because that concept raises peripheral illumination (as the light ray diagrams on the wikipedia site indicate). The Plena is probably not fully telecentric, but it probably uses the concepts that enable telecentricity to some degree, and combines them with a larger image circle (such as that of, e.g., the Zeiss Otus 100mm f/1.4).



Oct 05, 2023 at 08:07 PM
lukemeup
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p.18 #17 · p.18 #17 · Nikon Plena


I'm wondering if Nikon has a similar design for 105 1.4 Z up their sleeve. Wishful thinking. If 85 1.2 and 135 1.4 are roughly the same size.... 105 1.4 would be right there in between.


Oct 05, 2023 at 08:48 PM
1bwana1
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p.18 #18 · p.18 #18 · Nikon Plena


lukemeup wrote:
I'm wondering if Nikon has a similar design for 105 1.4 Z up their sleeve. Wishful thinking. If 85 1.2 and 135 1.4 are roughly the same size.... 105 1.4 would be right there in between.


The Nikon Rep in the Adorama video insists that like the Noct, this is a one off lens, not the start of a new series.



Oct 05, 2023 at 08:56 PM
1bwana1
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p.18 #19 · p.18 #19 · Nikon Plena


AcuteShadows wrote:
The lens would not make use of telecentricity not because it is supposed to be a telecentric lens, but because that concept raises peripheral illumination (as the light ray diagrams on the wikipedia site indicate). The Plena is probably not fully telecentric, but it probably uses the concepts that enable telecentricity to some degree, and combines them with a larger image circle (such as that of, e.g., the Zeiss Otus 100mm f/1.4).


The Nikon Rep says the the evenness in light comes from the enlarged image circle. If you look a a light fall off chart that plots stops of light accross distance from the center of the sensor, this makes sense.




Oct 05, 2023 at 08:59 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.18 #20 · p.18 #20 · Nikon Plena


1bwana1 wrote:
The Nikon Rep says the the evenness in light comes from the enlarged image circle. If you look a a light fall off chart that plots stops of light accross distance from the center of the sensor, this makes sense.



I don't doubt that the lens uses a larger image circle in some sense. The Nikon representative points this out because it's something that viewers at least think they would understand.

At the same time, it might well be that the "larger image circle" is not actually present, and that this notion is just being used figuratively. It might well be that the light bundles that hit the corners of the FX area are almost complete "inside the lens", as the inner elements of the lens are large enough not obstruct them. Yet, at the same time, light rays that would hit outside of the FX area might still be clipped, as the rear elements are large in order to achieve some telecentricity, but not large enough to avoid blocking light rays that hit far outside of the FX area.

Mirrorless mounts, in general, have been constructed with telecentricity as a concept in mind. The Plena lens probably just uses it a bit more than other lenses.

https://petapixel.com/2019/08/12/telecentric-lens-design-did-nikon-and-canon-follow-micro-four-thirds-lead/





Telecentric lens design. Source: https://www.edmundoptics.com/knowledge-center/application-notes/imaging/telecentric-design-topics/







Arri Zeiss Master Prime 100mm T1.3. Source: https://www.photonstophotos.net/GeneralTopics/Lenses/OpticalBench/OpticalBench.htm



Edited on Oct 05, 2023 at 10:07 PM · View previous versions



Oct 05, 2023 at 09:21 PM
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