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Archive 2023 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

formula4speed
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

I was actually somewhat surprised by how different my Leica M240 files look compared to the original Sony A7 (some of us don't have big time M11 money) with them being 24mp FF from roughly the same era.

But mostly the Leica is a different and kind of fun shooting experience, and I'm generally taking pictures just because I like to do it.

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:03 PM

rscheffler
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

rscheffler wrote:
They won't know the brand, but they like the look of the camera. I have had ladies comment on my Leicas over the years. When I'm working with Canon gear, only guys ever want to talk shop. The Leica seems to attract attention more based on its style and leads to different kinds of non gear-centric conversations. Canon-initiated conversations tend to be about the gear: comparing specs, comparing each other's gear inventory, etc.

retrofocus wrote:
I second this experience as long as it was related to an early Leica model. My IIIc is indeed a starting point of conversations due to its unique vintage look. More modern M cameras look similar to e. g. Fuji MLCs cause not much point of interest if not having the knowledge of the brand.

Hmm, good point about the Fuji cameras. My M experience predates the popularity of the Fuji X100 line, but more recently I have had people (guys) ask if the M is a Fuji. The other common question I'm sure others have also heard, is if I'm shooting film (which of course some of you are, but not me).

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:13 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Knut. wrote:
Thank you for the extensive answers. As I understand, the following points are most relevant:
- small size
- simplicity (shutterspeed, f-value, Iso, focus) - that‘s it.
(no bogus menues to dwelve into)
- quality feeling of body and lenses (not explicity said, but can be read in between the lines)

Anything I missed?

I can clearly feel into this. I ran around with a Sigma Merrill for years and adored pushing the boundaries of this small jewel.

I find it amazing how some have found words to describe this attachment and I can follow these thoughts. Not everything can be brought down to lines per...Show more →

I think what you are missing is that some of us prefer to use a rangefinder for viewing the scene than an EVF. One thing I like about a rangefinder is that for 35 to 90mm lenses I can see more of the scene through the viewfinder than the lens does which often aids in taking the shot at just the moment I want to do so. This matters to me quite a bit. I also like that I often just have to estimate depth of field rather than see it. I have often suspected if someone doesn't like to estimate they probably won't like a rangefinder, but if you like the simplicity of estimation the rangefinder will often appeal to you. I love the strategy of creating a shot by estimating the depth of field, the light, the bokeh, and even the composition a little. I really enjoy the process of estimating (i.e., creating) the shot in my head and then creating something that comes close to matching what was in my mind's eye. I think that either works for you or it doesn't. If it does, then I think the rangefinder is very enjoyable to use. If it doesn't it is probably very frustrating.

Sep 21, 2023 at 02:28 PM

Knut.
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Desmolicious wrote:
Knut: The disadvantage of the rangefinder has always been that ..calibration of the rangefinder as well as the corresponding lenses has always been an issue requiring constant attention…

Desmolicious: Not in my experience.

I was all over (film)-Leicas when I was a student (I studied in Giessen, just a stone throw away from Wetzler, e.g. 10 miles).
This of course attracted me. I used to cycle there every once in a while, since I could not afford a car, but invested everything in cameras…

The precission of the Meßsucher (rangefinder) is a real thorn: The accuracy is dependent on the distance between the two windows and the magnification of the viewfinder. I just looked it up for the present Leica M10R; as Leica themselves state:

Leica M10-R, Effektive Messbasis: 50.6mm (mechanische Messbasis 69,31mm x Sucher-Vergrößerung 0,73x)
The f-value of a lens that can be focussed precisely (vision1.0), is calculated with the formula:

f = (focal length of lens / Messbasis)^2

For a 50mm lens this means: (50mm/50.6mm)^2 = f 0,98
- Not bad, with attention it should be possible to focus a Noctilux f1.0

But what about other focal lengths? The formula yields some surprising results:
Lens: f-value that can still be focussed:
18mm f 0.1
21mm f 0.2
35mm f 0.5
50mm f 1.0
75mm f 2.2
90mm f 3.2
135mm f 7.1

While focusing precission is excellent for wide angle lenses, f-values that can be focussed reliably clearly go up with focal length.

Two things must be remembered:
1) These calculations are based on a circle of confusion of 0.03mm.
- These are ~7 pixels on the 40mp M10R and ~ 5 pixels on the 24mp M10
- To play it safe and get a precise distance measurement, the lens should thus be closed 1 or 2 f-stops more than the borderline f-stops above. In practice this also means, be wary about going above 50mm on a rangefinder lens.
Or -at least- close a 75mm lens to a minimum of f4.0 (or a 90mm lens to f5.6) if you want sharp eyelashes. Forget a 135mm lens.

Some Leica lenses 75/1.25; 75/1.4; 75/2.0; 90/1,5; 90/2.0; 90/2.2; 90.2.4 or 135/3.4 definitely can no longer be focussed precisely wide open with the rangefinder (neither on an M10R nor an M10)!

2) Considering the high mechanical precission required, calibration can clearly go out of whack.
I vividly remember my frustration with a 50mm/1.4 which was returned several times, till I felt it was right; and a technician who desperately tried to explain the maths and limitations of a rangefinder to me.

Edited on Sep 21, 2023 at 08:30 PM · View previous versions

Sep 21, 2023 at 05:48 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

I have 2 M 10s and have had them one since 2017 and another from 2018. I sent one of them in for calibration right after I bought it with my 90 Cron APO to make sure focus was dead on. Both M 10s are still fine as far as focus. My M 10 Mono is only 2 years old but still fine.

I have no problem focusing my 90 Cron or my Voight 50 1.2 Nokton wide open.

Sep 21, 2023 at 06:00 PM

Knut.
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

airfrogusmc wrote:
I have 2 M 10s and have had them one since 2017 and another from 2018. I sent one of them in for calibration right after I bought it with my 90 Cron APO to make sure focus was dead on. Both M 10s are still fine as far as focus. My M 10 Mono is only 2 years old but still fine.

I have no problem focusing my 90 Cron or my Voight 50 1.2 Nokton wide open.

If you are happy with it, stick with it. There is nothing wrong.

I can only recall my frustration at the time. I found it extremely difficult getting precise focus with a 90mm cron wide open at about 2m (6 feet) distance. Taking 10 shots, some were spot on, while the others were more or less just a bit off. Even a tripod didn‘t solve the problem (eliminating any swaying back and forth). The vicinity to Leica allowed me to rush over and report my sorrows, which unfortunately were not eliminated. In the end I stuck to focal lengths of 50mm and below.
And I can clearly relate to the joys using the lenses on an M Leica (at these lower focal lengths) 😊
horses for courses…

Sep 21, 2023 at 06:24 PM

Knut.
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

And - I‘m no longer familiar with digital M Leicas - is there the possibility to focus on the back screen when precission is more important than the „decisive moment“?
That should solve any problems when extreme precission is required …

Sep 21, 2023 at 06:29 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

You probably needed to send the lens and camera in for calibration. That's why I sent mine in. Now its great. No issues and that was what 5 years ago? Never had any issues with my 50 1.2 or my 35 Lux on any of my bodies.

So I would guess a digital rangefinder is not the right camera for you. Not an issue because if you don't need one then there is a world of other options out there for you For those like me who a true digital rangefinder is perfect for the way I see and work then there is digital Leica M. Thats it.

And yes the M 10 and M 11 both have live view. And I think the M 240 does also. I rarely work on a tripod but the few times I have I have used live view. Works great. Kinda like a view camera only the image isn't upside down.

Sep 21, 2023 at 06:29 PM

Knut.
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

I feel that Leica M has a very strong position for wide angle lenses and any lenses up to 50mm. A rangefinder can be focused faster, and with a wide angle lens (21, 28, 35 and even 50mm) clearly more precisely than on any screen (be it a mirrorless viewfinder like the Sony Alphas or the back screen of a dslr).
Especially for manual focus wide angle lenses with a large diaphragm (f 1,4 or f2) there is no competition. Despite being wide angles these f1.4 or f2 lenses have narrow planes of sharpness and are extremely difficult to focus precisely on a screen (even if peaking helps some).

But thing change when you move into telphoto land, and my math above show why. A short tele like 85/f4 from Zeiss may be fine, but there is less point in using an f 1.4 or f2 telephoto lens with a rangefinder. Or at least you will struggle, even if you manage. This is more about physics …
But as you confirmed, focusing is possible on the back screen, so you might go that way if speed (the advantage of a rangefinder) is not paramount.

Edited on Sep 21, 2023 at 08:34 PM · View previous versions

Sep 21, 2023 at 07:14 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

It just takes practice and a len/ body that is in synch. I shoot pro jobs all the time with my 90 wide open. No issues.

Sep 21, 2023 at 07:42 PM

Knut.
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

airfrogusmc wrote:
…. and that was what 5 years ago?

Oh no. That was 30 years ago, when I was fully into film and wanted a camera with faster focussing capability than the available manual focus SLRs at that time. When AF came and improved I sold my heavily used, but still pristine Leica and moved to SLRs (a pity since prices have since exploded and Leica is no longer affordable for a student as it once was (allthough they always were somewhat more expensive).

I was fully into the technicalities of a rangefinder and I just dug up the notes and documentation I got from Leica in those years. That was a time when photographers pressed Leica that they needed to improve the rangefinder to get a better handle on the telephoto range of lenses. Leica responded by increasing the viewfinder magnification to 0,85. But that barely allowed full view of 28mm (and no framelines as I remember). In addition they brought the 135mm with binoculars, magnifying the windows of the rangefinder. This was enthusiastically embraced by the aficionados because 135mm could finally be precisely focussed. Many others, not aware of the theory, implications and limits of a rangefinder, were less enthralled since they found the contraption rather ugly (and it didn‘t easily fit into a camera bag).

I just asked, because the basic rangefinder has not changed much over these years according to Leica. But the ability to focus on the back screen is a clear pathway for using telephoto lenses (even beyond 135mm, like the CV 180).

Sep 21, 2023 at 07:45 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Sorry I was referring to my M 10 and 90 Cron. After the calibration from Leica of both (about 5 years ago) I have had no issues with focus.

You can also use an attachable EVF.

Sep 21, 2023 at 08:04 PM

Knut.
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

airfrogusmc wrote:
Sorry I was referring to my M 10 and 90 Cron. After the calibration from Leica of both (about 5 years ago) I have had no issues with focus.

You can also use an attachable EVF.

Just looked the EVF up. That is really interesting. It clearly adresses and solves the afore mentioned issues with large aperture telephoto lenses. This brings the best of two worlds together. Rangefinder focussing for lenses < 50mm and EVF for large aperture lenses > 50mm.

Erwin Puts once said that he could see no sense in large aperture telephoto lenses for the Leica M since they would not be compatible with the achievable precission of the rangefinder (at that time he called them prestige or renown lenses without any feasable practical purpose for photography). An EVF opens up a completely new path for these lenses.

Sep 21, 2023 at 08:17 PM

theHUN
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

As others have said, you can learn to nail focus with practice.

The other point of view is that resolution is overvalued. Flip through a couple of photo books of the masters from the last three generations and count the number of pictures where defocus (or lack of ultra-high resolution) does not take away from the resulting composition. In some instances it is the lack of perfect focus that makes the picture sing.

Sep 21, 2023 at 09:02 PM

itai195
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

The shooting experience is just more fun on my M11 than on my Sony cameras. No, it's not as fast or as flexible or reliable and in cases where I value those attributes I'll use my Sony. But for the majority of my personal shooting, it's quite refreshing to realize that those things just don't really matter, technical perfection in every shot doesn't really matter, and the most important thing is to just enjoy the experience and the photos. Since getting my M11, I've had more fun shooting than I have in years. And yeah, I still kick myself for occasionally totally blowing the focus, sometimes even when I have the luxury of taking my time, but that's part of the package.

Sep 21, 2023 at 10:11 PM

pmeheut
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

For me, it has everything to do with the rangefinder experience. I shoot different pictures with it and this has been true for more than 30 years.

Because I can use a m43 Pen-F with primes: it is smaller and lighter than a M, has good enough AF, is totally silent and I find hard to see the quality difference on a A3+ print.

But this is not the same: shooting through a screen and the comfort of a modern camera sets my mind in a different mode than setting the f-stop using a ring, focusing without even thinking about it (or not, hyperfocal is a wonderful thing) and just framing what I saw.

This has nothing to do with Leica, their lenses as I use Voigt ones mostly nowadays, their quality control could be better and the prices are outrageous because they have no competitor.

Except for the fact that my M11 is very, very close to the M6 I bought in the 80s. With other manufacturers, if you have several bodies or if you upgrade, you end up with buttons in different places, new functions or missing ones, a manual you need to read to get the most of it.
For the kind of pictures I shoot with the M, i.e. street, using a camera so simple and so familiar that I can forget about it is what I need.

Sep 22, 2023 at 12:43 AM

algrove
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

OP
Why not just go to a Leica retailer/store and ask questions there while you handle and shoot with your own SD card.

Sep 28, 2023 at 11:46 AM

gordec
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Desmolicious wrote:
Leicas attract da ladies. The only reason I use Leica.

Only if you have matching Canadian Goose down jackets. Otherwise, there is too much pupil flinging.

Sep 28, 2023 at 12:39 PM

Knut.
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

algrove wrote:
OP
Why not just go to a Leica retailer/store and ask questions there while you handle and shoot with your own SD card.

There aren‘t any questions for me to adress at a retail store. I‘m well aquainted with M Leicas.

I wanted to tap into the feeling of the community concerning rangefinder cameras in 2023 and I definitely got wonderful answers. At first sight rangefinders feel like dinosaurs, their relevance is not clearly obvious. Nevertheless they are very valid tools.
As the responses above clearly got across, there is more to using a Leica than the technicalities suggest. It is an experience of simplification of the photographic process, a concentration on the essentials of taking a picture. An M-Leica lends itself to such an approach, because it keeps the basics simple while still being a strong photographic tool for controling these basic parameters influencing the image (focus, f-value, shutterspeed, Iso, DOF) and thus it stays a valid image taking machine.

This has all been very well expressed in the numerous responses and I‘m grateful for these, they have sharpened my view on this issue. Technically a Sony A7rv or an A1 might be the better „picture taking machine)“ but the experience will be different. It will not be as basic, as present and as focussed on the motiv.

Sep 28, 2023 at 12:59 PM

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