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Archive 2023 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Knut.
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

I had some contact with Leica M cameras in film times. At that time a properly calibrated rangefinder focussing system was faster to excute and more precise than an SLR, at least for lenses in the range of 18 to 50mm. Photographers using these cameras for street photography had a clear speed advantage with rangefinder cameras. This advantage tapered off when moving into the telephoto range.

The disadvantage of the rangefinder has always been that depth of feld cannot be judged in the viewfinder and that calibration of the rangefinder as well as the coresponding lenses has allways been an issue requiring constant attention.

Having recently moved to Sony, I‘m amazed how precisely focusing can be done with the new high resolution viewfinders found in the A1 or A7rv. Especially if you add a small amount of focus peaking, the plane of focus can be placed very quickly and precisely. Additional precission can be achieved when zooming in (which I have placed on one of the buttons).

With all these advantages in present day mirrorless cameras, I wonder what keeps people in the rangefinder camp for manual focus lenses. I’m definitely not trolling, just extremely curious, since I come from a manual focus background myself.

There must be additional advantages of Leica M-cameras that I am missing due to lack of knowledge.

Sep 20, 2023 at 03:53 AM

panos.v
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

You are missing due to lack of personal experience with one. Anything else is just talk and specs. There is no objective advantage nor any objectively measurable benefit for the huge premium. It is simply down to how it feels in hand, how you use it and how it fits your personality and photogaphy.

This is in the realm of is a Bentley better than an S-Class Merc or why a Hermes bag costs 10x an equivalent top-end high-street leather bag.

Sep 20, 2023 at 04:44 AM

ftllens
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Satisfying haptics in the least possible volume with minimal distractions.

Sep 20, 2023 at 05:20 AM

Xavier Rival
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

ftllens wrote:
Satisfying haptics in the least possible volume with minimal distractions.

This.
Not only an M body is very compact, but also there are many very compact M lenses that are top quality, and work best on M cameras due to the optimisation of their sensor. And when used to working in manual exposure + focusing mode, the M system is a pleasure to use.

Sep 20, 2023 at 05:43 AM

1bwana1
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

I shoot both a Sony A1 and Leica M 11 systems. I really can't put together a rational argument regarding superiority for either system based on merit alone. I personally will prefer one or the other depending on subject and circumstances. They both produce excellent image quality. There are differences in rendering, colors, how I see and compose images when using them.

The big difference for me is the shooting experience and the size.
These strongly favor the Leica as the camera I most often have with me, so integrates with my daily life.

Sep 20, 2023 at 06:10 AM

bjhurley
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Knut. wrote:
I had some contact with Leica M cameras in film times. At that time a properly calibrated rangefinder focussing system was faster to excute and more precise than an SLR, at least for lenses in the range of 18 to 50mm. Photographers using these cameras for street photography had a clear speed advantage with rangefinder cameras.

That's not quite right: zone focusing at f8 or f11 works just as fast and accurately on SLRs as it does on rangefinders or any other camera for that matter.

To me the main advantages of rangefinder cameras and lenses over traditional SLRs are their small size, quiet shutter (compared with SLRs), and the ability to shoot at low shutter speeds (below 1/60) handheld without worrying about mirror slap blurring your image. Many of these advantages are no longer relevant in the age of mirrorless cameras, some of which are also quite small.

I have two film rangefinder cameras (no interest in digital M), two film SLRs, and two digital mirrorless Sony cameras. I find the Sonys to be by far the fastest, most accurate, and easiest for manual photography, at least the kind of photography I do. But almost all my favorite lenses are rangefinder lenses, LTM and M mount. If I were primarily a street shooter I'd probably go for a rangefinder simply for the small size, quiet shutter, and general inconspicuousness.

Sep 20, 2023 at 06:40 AM

krug
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

SIMPLICITY !

Sep 20, 2023 at 06:45 AM

algrove
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Most of the above plus a special image quality. I remember a NYC ICP class where we submitted images for group review on a large overhead. Brands were many and varied with 8 of us including Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, Sony and Leica. When we got to my images of the same areas as the rest of the group had shot in, the instructor could not believe the beautiful colors and rendering he saw in my images versus the rest. When asked which Leica I used, I said it was an M10 (before the R came out). His assistant who shot with Nikon made a verbal and mental note that whenever financially possible he was going to get an M. The instructor, a Leica shooter, said he was going to upgrade at first opportunity as in his 50 years of photography he had not seen such beautiful rendering in an M. As for the lenses used in that class, they were the 35/1.4 FLE and the APO 50/2.0.

I have had multiple Sonys but could never get as one with any. As for a small AF camera, I now prefer the Fuji XT-5. Even though APS-C it provides plenty of resolution for my needs.

Sep 20, 2023 at 07:12 AM

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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Knut. wrote:
I had some contact with Leica M cameras in film times. At that time a properly calibrated rangefinder focussing system was faster to excute and more precise than an SLR, at least for lenses in the range of 18 to 50mm. Photographers using these cameras for street photography had a clear speed advantage with rangefinder cameras. This advantage tapered off when moving into the telephoto range.

The disadvantage of the rangefinder has always been that depth of feld cannot be judged in the viewfinder and that calibration of the rangefinder as well as the coresponding lenses has allways been an issue...Show more →

If you don’t get it what can I possibly say that will make you go “ohhhh. Got it!”.. just use whatever works for you.

For me is rangefinders and I wouldn’t go back to mirrorless. I don’t think it would do any good trying to explain why. It is what it is.

I enjoy using a rangefinder infinitely more than all the auto focus in the world. Been there done that.

Sep 20, 2023 at 07:15 AM

retrofocus
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Using both - rangefinder M and an older Sony MLC, the A7R. I have no experience with more modern Sony MLC cameras though since my workflow uses now predominantly rangefinder cameras. In the past I started out with the A7R and attached Leica M lenses before even owing a digital M camera. I am now using my A7R only with third party DSLR and SLR lenses and for special applications like microscopy photography. For the rest I am using rangefinder M cameras.

I see the following advantages for using M lenses:

Size, weight, and quality: easy to carry 3-4 prime lenses in a smaller camera bag plus camera. Impossible to do with DSLR or MLC and AF-based lenses.
Manual focusing: rangefinder lenses have sometimes the focus tab. Even I am personally not a fan of it, it can have an advantage for zone focusing in regard to the tab's position. Some like it others don't.
Compatibility: Older M and even LTM lenses can be used on film and modern digital M cameras. This has a big advantage when shooting film and digital in parallel with M cameras: the same kind of lenses can be used on both camera bodies.
Built quality: I personally find modern Sony E-mount lenses very plasticky built which have never convinced me to invest into this lens environment. I rather prefer more rigidly built M lenses (considering different manufacturers).
Value: M lenses tend to keep their value, especially Leica M lenses. Some of them even increase in sales value over time. Opposite to modern AF-based lenses which depreciate easily 40% of original price and more.
Used market: Used market for M lenses is huge - finding good deals takes patience and is not always easy, but you rarely can get wrong buying a used well maintained M lens from a reputable seller.

Big advantage of rangefinder based OVF is seeing outside of the lens-related frame lines. I used this a couple of times effectively when objects came into the frame from the side. I was able to release the shutter exactly in the right moment because I saw the momentum outside the frame first. Second advantage is the rangefinder focusing. Compared to my older A7R, it is way more accurate and especially faster than focus peaking and magnification tools in EVF. There might be improvements done in newer Sony MLC cameras to compensate and improve, but I doubt it will be better/faster than with a rangefinder focus. This said, there are situations where a rangefinder OVF and a MLC-based EVF is advantageous to use. This is one reason why I keep also my A7R with EVF.

Edited on Sep 20, 2023 at 07:58 AM · View previous versions

Sep 20, 2023 at 07:41 AM

Knut.
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Thank you for the extensive answers. As I understand, the following points are most relevant:
- small size
- simplicity (shutterspeed, f-value, Iso, focus) - that‘s it.
(no bogus menues to dwelve into)
- quality feeling of body and lenses (not explicity said, but can be read in between the lines)

Anything I missed?

I can clearly feel into this. I ran around with a Sigma Merrill for years and adored pushing the boundaries of this small jewel.

I find it amazing how some have found words to describe this attachment and I can follow these thoughts. Not everything can be brought down to lines per mm. There are qualities more difficult to describe, but nevertheless valid.

Sep 20, 2023 at 07:57 AM

retrofocus
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Best of both worlds merging EVF with rangefinder-based M lenses is a hypothetical Q-based camera with exchangeable (M or L?) lens mount. It will happen at some point I am sure, but will take some time due to potential in-house competition with current Q and SL cameras. Such camera would replace my currently used MLC for sure, and I would love to use it in parallel with my rangefinder M cameras. Best of two worlds combined!

Sep 20, 2023 at 08:02 AM

bjhurley
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Knut. wrote:
I find it amazing how some have found words to describe this attachment and I can follow these thoughts. Not everything can be brought down to lines per mm. There are qualities more difficult to describe, but nevertheless valid.

There's a reality distortion field around Leica and rangefinders that makes Steve Jobs seem like an amateur. I love my rangefinder cameras and lenses for all the reasons touched on above, but there are some significant disadvantages to be aware of:

1. What you see is not what you'll get: because you are not looking through the lens, you won't know if your lens is flaring; less of an issue for lenses with modern coatings but a lot of the older M and LTM lenses are very susceptible to veiling flare. Furthermore, if your lens has focus shift, the rangefinder can fool you into thinking your image is in focus when in fact it is not, depending on the aperture. On digital M cameras with live view, you can avoid these issues. But you can't on film rangefinders or digital rangefinders without live view, unless you only buy lenses that don't have no focus shift. This cuts out some very nice lenses though, like the Zeiss C-Sonnar 50/1.5 and many of the MS Optics lenses.

2. Focusing with the rangefinder can be fast and easy if you have vertical lines or even semi-vertical lines in the area you're focusing on. But if you're shooting something with complex textures it's a lot harder to see when you're in focus. I generally resort to the distance scale on my lens in those cases and stop down to give me some depth-of-field wiggle room for focus.

3. The rangefinder patch is in the center of the frame. If you focus centrally and then move the lens to put your subject in midfield, you will lose focus on some lenses. This is related to item 1 above: what you see is not what you'll get.

4. Leica is not the company it was back in the film days. They stumbled badly in their early attempts to make digital cameras; their more recent models are excellent but you'll find lots of horror stories about poor customer service and quality control right here in this forum.

Sep 20, 2023 at 08:17 AM

RexGig0
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Knut. wrote:
The disadvantage of the rangefinder has always been that depth of field cannot be judged in the viewfinder…

DOF can be judged by the shooter’s brain, can it not? (This does require more thought, and work.) Also, DOF can be seen on the scale, on the top of the lens barrel. Of course, distance and DOF markings are not exclusive to Leica M-mount lenses.

I have a foot in each of two “camps.” I use Leica M, plus my two previous SLR/DSLR systems. My wife, who was my first local mentor, made certain that I was comfortable focusing manually, because macro shooting was a serious goal, and that required manual-focusing skills. Soon after starting with a bag of modest pre-owned Canon gear, I bought a Novoflex EOS-to-Nikon F adapter, and was buying us Nikkor lenses with beautiful distance and DOF markings on the lens barrel, and learning how to use those, for normal walking-about shooting.

On the day that I bought into the Leica M system, I first requested to buy a particular pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH lens. At that moment, I did not yet know which M camera I would be acquiring, or that I would buy it, that day. During several visits, I had tested this lens on pre-owned and demonstrator M9 and M Type 240 cameras. Firstly, I liked that I could see what was happening, outside the 50mm frame lines, and, secondly, liked that there was no black-out of the viewfinder, while shooting. Thirdly, I liked the unique background blur, in the Summilux 50mm images shot at maximum aperture. These are three things that I could have, with a Leica M camera and lens.

I knew that distance/scale focusing would be a challenge, with a 50mm lens, but, reckoned that I would add a 35mm, 28mm, or 21mm lens, soon enough.

On that day in April 2018, after requesting the sale of the lens, I then learned that the store had just received two M10 cameras, that were not allocated to anyone on the waiting list. The waiting list had just been fulfilled, finally, more than a year after the M10’s intro date. I could buy a new M10, if I could sort-out the funding. Well, I simply scuttled plans to buy a very expensive, top-tier Nikkor “super telephoto” lens. Either a 600mm f/4, or a 400mm f/2.8, had been a long-term grail-quest, but a left rotator cuff injury had, fortuitously, caused me to postpone that idea. That which I did not spend on the ultimate bird lens, instead funded the Summilux, a new M10, and, an alternative grail-quest, for the Nikon F mount, a Zeiss Otus 85mm.

Yes, I had, and still have, a foot in two camps, appreciating manual-focus lenses for multiple systems.

Edited to add: I never did buy an ultimate bird lens. By the time my left rotator cuff healed, it had become less fun to carry heavy lenses, and bulky tripods, on quests for tiny birds, and our nature photography had shifted toward macro, wee beasties, plants, and such.

Sep 20, 2023 at 05:50 PM

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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

1bwana1 wrote:
I shoot both a Sony A1 and Leica M 11 systems. I really can't put together a rational argument regarding superiority for either system based on merit alone. I personally will prefer one or the other depending on subject and circumstances. They both produce excellent image quality. There are differences in rendering, colors, how I see and compose images when using them.

The big difference for me is the shooting experience and the size.
These strongly favor the Leica as the camera I most often have with me, so integrates with my daily life.

I'm in the same situation . . . A1 and M11. And while my journey with Leica is relatively new, I'm finding myself drawn to Leica in certain situations and Sony in others. I really like the compactness of the Leica M system. When I use the Leica and pick up the Sony A1, it feels huge by comparison. But I still love my A1 along with Leica. Now, I've added a Leica M4-P. Where the A1 travels at the speed of light, the M11 is a race car and the film Leica is a stroll in the park.

Sep 20, 2023 at 06:10 PM

RustyRus
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

I enjoy shooting M series in almost every scenario except for sports.

The real reason though is I always take my camera with me with an M system. Like said above, its just easily fits into my life style.

I can take a fast aperture prime with me anywhere I want to go, I can even take some 60 year old classics or remakes with me if I want as well. All in incredible compact packages.

Sorry for the awful picture but here is

Sony A7rV with 35 1.4
Leica M11 with 35 1.4 SR attached
35 f/2 APO
50 1.2 Noctilux
50 1.4 Summilux

I love and carry these with me all the time. Usually only one at a time but adding one is a simple task in my bag. To each his own though!!!!!

Edited on Sep 20, 2023 at 06:50 PM · View previous versions

Sep 20, 2023 at 06:36 PM

la-px
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

For me it comes down to size and the tactile experience. There are definitely other compact options, particularly the Fuji XT series, but lenses on that system can get pretty large in comparison to similar offerings for the M system. On tactility, manual focus lenses exist for EVF systems like Fuji, but I find it much harder to nail focus on that compared to using a rangefinder system.

Sep 20, 2023 at 06:41 PM

madNbad
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Maybe Leica should bring back the DOF notches. The M2 viewfinder has one for 5.6 and the other for 16.

Sep 20, 2023 at 08:07 PM

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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

I can think of two. Others have already mentioned the compact size. I'll add the availability of character/legacy lenses.

Sep 20, 2023 at 08:29 PM

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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Manual focus lenses: What is the allure of a M-LEICA IN 2023?

Knut. wrote:
Anything I missed?

Yes.

I agree with what others have posted, but another aspect of the M that I find kind of liberating is the fact that it is inherently rather imprecise, particularly with the optical viewfinder. Things like parallax error, even though the frame lines shift for some compensation, you're inherently viewing the scene from a slightly different angle than the lens, and things line up slightly differently. So if you want something lined up a certain way, you kind of have to fly by the seat of your pants and use intuition and experience to get you there without falling back to live view, or chimping between shots. Because I know framing won't be that precise, I don't usually spend a lot of effort trying to perfectly line up a scene and just do it intuitively. Sometimes it doesn't quite work out the way I wanted it to, but that's usually OK, too. At least for me.

If not shooting wide open, or at wider apertures, you can kind of just get focus in the ballpark, kind of line up the focus patch. You don't have to be super careful about it because depth of field covers the minor focusing errors, allowing you to work quickly and intuitively. I never found SLRs to be like this, nor mirrorless for the most part. For me this is different than zone/scale focusing. I'm sometimes not very good at judging distances so to have the rangefinder patch in the viewfinder as a guide, but not having to perfectly line it up if there's ample depth of field, works well for me.

You mentioned not being able to see depth of field through the M's optical viewfinder as a negative. For me it's more of a positive. With an SLR, or a mirrorless that only stops down at the moment of exposure (with native lenses, rather than adapted manual lenses), it's the opposite. One only sees wide open shallow depth of field, unless using the DoF preview button. With the M, I find it's the closest to viewing the scene with the naked eye, because it essentially is. The optical viewfinder is primarily a framing device and doesn't become a 'screen' onto which the image is projected, like an SLR's focusing screen, or the EVF of a mirrorless camera. Therefore the view through the M to me feels very natural and low strain on the eye. I just look at the scene and decide where to place focus and use experience and intuition to understand how DoF will play out with the selected aperture. I'm often around f/8 anyway, so the deep DoF natural view through the viewfinder IMO works better for me.

I think what it boils down to with the M, for me, is that it is a simple, fluid experience. The camera for the most part doesn't get in my way. I'm rarely fighting it (usually only if it locks up, which does happen from time to time), which means I'm just concentrating on what's in front of the camera.

bjhurley wrote:
There's a reality distortion field around Leica and rangefinders that makes Steve Jobs seem like an amateur. I love my rangefinder cameras and lenses for all the reasons touched on above, but there are some significant disadvantages to be aware of:

In the spirit of Bob Ross (of The Joy of Painting TV show on PBS in the 80s and 90s) these disadvantages can also be seen as catalysts for 'happy little accidents.'

Leica M is very expensive and this often means a range of photographers are attracted to the system because if it costs that much, it must be "the best" and will therefore make them better photographers. I kind of feel sorry for them because they don't really seem to know the hurt that's in store for them when the M system is approached in this manner. It's not a system that does all the work for you. In fact, it punishes you for being lazy and inattentive. All that money really just buys you a very stripped down, no frills package and then makes you work to extract the maximum benefit from it. So no wonder it often leaves a sour taste with many and a poor value for the dollar in respect to the technology you're paying for. But if you know and understand that going in, and actually want a no-frills experience for the 'purity' or simplicity, or hands-on experience, I can't think of anything else on the market that comes close. Oh, and the lenses - small jewels of optical awesomeness.

And not just from Leica.

Sep 20, 2023 at 10:37 PM

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