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Archive 2023 · Canon R5 II

Stoffer
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Canon R5 II

arbitrage wrote:
The only camera out there that puts any pressure on Canon releasing a stacked high-MP (45+) sensor in a mid-grade body is the Nikon Z8.
Sony has nothing in that ballpark with the $6500 A1 being their only high-MP stacked sensor and that will compete with hypothetical R1.
Sony is rumoured to be releasing an A9III between Nov-Feb....Olympic camera. There have been no good rumours on what the MP count will be but it is guessed it will be as low as the current 24MP (just way faster) or up to at best 33-35MP. So even that at current A9II $4500 price...Show more →

This would be very atypical of Canon, but they may get ambitious and do what Nikon has done, reuse the same stacked sensor in R1 and R5 mark II as Nikon did with Z9 and Z8.

Two things goes against this though: 1) we are talking Canon here, they still have that cripple hammer stored down in the basement, and 2) Nikon had the flagship Z9 to shine for quite some time before releasing Z8. And it seem that R5 Mark II might be out before R1 according to rumors?

Sep 16, 2023 at 08:08 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Canon R5 II

VailJohnson wrote:
Depending if you buy grey market or not. But it won’t be more than $4,000.

The R6 came out 2020: MSRP: $2,499
The R6 II came out 2022: MSRP: $2,499

The R7 came out 2022: MSRP: $1,499
The R8 came out 2023: MSRP: $1,499

So yes. I don’t believe the R5 II will be more than $3,899

The orginal claim was the range would be between $500 LESS than the original

It is possible that an update could be released at the same price (esp when the time interval between releases is short), though one prior example of that happening does not denote a trend. (Note also that comparing two different cameras —R7 and R8 — this way doesn't make sense, especially when Canon uses the higher number to denote a camera lower in their lineup. So your second example actually contradicts the price claim in the post I replied to.)

I have not looked, but I'd be willing to bet that if you looked at the entirely of the Canon (and other manufacturer's) line-up and tracked costs across the evolution of particular cameras that there are few (almost none? none?) where the cost of the new model is lower.

I don't know what gray market prices would have to do with this. They are notoriously variable and hard to compare... and they would also be available, we assume, on a new R5II.

We can compare list prices since those are essentially fixed reference points. While it is true that once a camera reaches the market there will be various bundles and other discounts, those are always relative to that initial list price.

I can't rule out the price being the same for the R5II —in fact, that was the lower end of what I said was possible — but it is virtually impossible that it will be lower than that of the R5.

Time will tell.

- - -

Stoffer wrote:
Canon here, they still have that cripple hammer...

Is anyone else around here getting tired of that "cripple hammer" terminology? :-(

Edited on Sep 17, 2023 at 09:11 AM · View previous versions

Sep 16, 2023 at 09:44 AM

tomasr
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Canon R5 II

If Canon is reading I would like a Nikon Z8 replica please (with much better EVF) at similar price. Or I'm getting the NIKON next time.

Sep 17, 2023 at 08:27 AM

Doppler9000
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Canon R5 II

Not sure why we should expect that Canon will introduce a new, upgraded version of a popular, successful camera at the same or lower list price than when the original was introduced roughly five years earlier. (R5 list price is $3899.99.)

I have not looked, but I'd be willing to bet that if you looked at the entirely of the Canon (and other manufacturer's) line-up and tracked costs across the evolution of particular cameras that there are few (almost none? none?) where the cost of the new model is lower.

The Fuji GFX 100II is a significant upgrade on the 100, and has a 25% lower list price.

Sep 18, 2023 at 02:03 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Canon R5 II

The Fuji GFX 100II is a significant upgrade on the 100, and has a 25% lower list price.

Fair point, but...

... prices in the larger-than-full-frame digital space have been dropping consistently for some years now, and while the $10k price of the original GFX 100 seemed like a real deal at the time — and far less expensive than other competitors — that's no longer the case. Lots of folks who might have been attracted to the GFX 100 when it was the only such camera didn't buy it... but more of them did by the equally powerful GFX 100s when it arrived. (I know at least one owner of the original GFX 100 who "downgraded" to one of the later, less expensive, smaller models.)

However, you do point up that there are specific market conditions – especially with a new technology product following its initial first penetration into a market as scale increases — that can lead to lower new product prices.

On the other hand, that's not the same situation in the FF high MP market. Here the pricing is likely going to fit in with that of similarly-capable cameras from other manufacturers and with past pricing and position within the line-up. Again, there really aren't many (and recent?) examples of Canon introducing cameras at this equipment level at lower cost than their predecessors.

One more thing about that Fujifilm camera. The GFX 100 II seems like a fine camera. But the GFX 100s will produce the same image quality, is smaller and lighter, and costs less. in fact, the current difference is $2300! That's going to persuade a lot of folks interested in miniMF to look at the 100s!

Dan

Sep 18, 2023 at 04:07 PM

Doppler9000
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Canon R5 II

As far as I can see, the R6 II is the same price that the R6 was at launch, in nominal terms.

Sep 18, 2023 at 06:18 PM

Imagemaster
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Canon R5 II

And the R6 II is all around better.

Sep 18, 2023 at 09:45 PM

armd
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Canon R5 II

Yes, it is better and I certainly expect the R5II to be better. Will it be radically different as some hope? Again, I think not and more than likely it will appear with improvements in r/o speed, AF, and a few other things.

Sep 19, 2023 at 09:19 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Canon R5 II

armd wrote:
Yes, it is better and I certainly expect the R5II to be better. Will it be radically different as some hope? Again, I think not and more than likely it will appear with improvements in r/o speed, AF, and a few other things.

I agree. No company can make "radically different" cameras with each upgrade cycle. The big change was moving from the 5D series to the R5, and now the most likely thing is continuous, incremental improvements, just like we see with most camera models from Canon and other manufacturers.

The biggest potential change — though it is far from a sure thing, it seems — would be the introduction of a "R5s" higher-resolution version. But even that would likely be functionally and ergonomically pretty similar to the R5.

Sep 19, 2023 at 10:51 AM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
No company can make "radically different" cameras with each upgrade cycle.
take Sigma... every generation = new mutation

Sep 19, 2023 at 01:05 PM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
. But even that would likely be functionally and ergonomically pretty similar to the R5.

predict moving ON/OFF switch and VIDEO/STILL to be like the did for R6II to screw all of us !

Sep 19, 2023 at 01:07 PM

tomasr
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Canon R5 II

Imagemaster wrote:
And the R6 II is all around better.

In my view on paper the differences are very minor unless you own or plan to buy an external video recorder like Ninja V+. That of course gives you 6K RAW video and that's a pretty big deal if you need it. Other than that a minor resolution bump, same body, same outdated pixelated EVF. If the later was update I probably would upgrade, but now just waiting for R5 II or going Nikon.

Sep 19, 2023 at 01:12 PM

rscheffler
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Canon R5 II

Imagemaster wrote:
And the R6 II is all around better.

tomasr wrote:
In my view on paper the differences are very minor unless you own or plan to buy an external video recorder like Ninja V+. That of course gives you 6K RAW video and that's a pretty big deal if you need it. Other than that a minor resolution bump, same body, same outdated pixelated EVF. If the later was update I probably would upgrade, but now just waiting for R5 II or going Nikon.

In use, the differences, IMO, are not very minor. But also not huge.

I guess it depends on what you need/expect. I have both the R6 and R6II and the R6II is the more 'refined' camera. Core capabilities are not hugely better, such as overall AF performance. But the R6II does have much better battery life and additional, if minor, features such as high frequency flicker reduction, more subject recognition types, ability to combine subject recognition with all AF point types. Its ability to operate at 40fps in stills capture suggests a fair amount more processing horsepower under the hood. Probably a combination of sensor speed and processor speed. And it is an all new sensor. For some these differences may be irrelevant. But I appreciate the improvements, otherwise I'd just have two R6s. Yet, because it's not a fundamental leap past the R6, I can and do still use the R6 with the R6II and it's a fairly seamless transition between the two (for stills work).

Given the larger timespan since the R5's intro and the likely R5II compared to the R6 and R6II, the R5II *should* offer more noticeable improvements over the original. And since then cameras like the Z8 have complicated matters for Canon to only offer a minor refresh.

Sep 19, 2023 at 03:15 PM

tomasr
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Canon R5 II

rscheffler wrote:
In use, the differences, IMO, are not very minor. But also not huge.

I guess it depends on what you need/expect. I have both the R6 and R6II and the R6II is the more 'refined' camera. Core capabilities are not hugely better, such as overall AF performance. But the R6II does have much better battery life and additional, if minor, features such as high frequency flicker reduction, more subject recognition types, ability to combine subject recognition with all AF point types. Its ability to operate at 40fps in stills capture suggests a fair amount more processing horsepower under the hood. Probably...Show more →

Battery life would be the most significant one on that list, but to be fair I have a couple of old generic batteries that work fine when you just need to get through to the end of the shoot. I bought mine less than 2 months before II unexpectedly came out so I didn't feel exactly great about it, but wasn't going to just go ebay it and replace for a fairly limited number of new features. Internal RAW probably would have swayed me, and certainly a better EVF because that is one thing I truly hate about current camera. For video work you obviously don't need one, and for stills like interiors and landscapes I just use DSLR every single time.

40 fps is where it gets interesting. I personally find 20fps to be overkill, like I have to spend serious time picking The shot from like 60 frames. Imagine 1 out of 120. The good news is II can be customised and be set at less than 20fps while mk1 is stuck at either 1 or full 20. Curiously I have seen reviews claiming mk1 has a larger buffer and I can shoot a few good s to a fairly slow gen II SD card, whereas mkII just stops after 2s if that is correct. Anyway I am not a sports shooter, so that's only relevant if I want to be able to pick the sharpest shot at marginal settings or avoiding blinkies in a group shot.

The sensor upgrade is very relevant if it significantly improves 1) SNR, 2) rolling shutter 3) removed AA filter. +4MP is nice but has a long way to go to match even A7IV, let alone R5, and sometimes smaller files just means lower overhead for editing when clients just need images for web, and that's a lot of my work.
So maybe Canon just ran out of 20MP sensors, or 24MP one is much cheaper to make and they just threw in a few minor upgrades along the way.

Sep 19, 2023 at 03:57 PM

Imagemaster
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Canon R5 II

What is a relevant about whether the R6 II is better depends on what each individual photographer wants. The in-camera focus-stacking alone made it a better camera for me than the R6. I use the feature a lot, mostly for close-up shots. The improved AF for detecting and locking onto moving subjects is better with the R6 II from my experiences.

https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/canon-vs-canon/r6-vs-r6-mark-ii/

Sep 19, 2023 at 05:18 PM

Toothwalker
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Canon R5 II

tomasr wrote:
40 fps is where it gets interesting. I personally find 20fps to be overkill, like I have to spend serious time picking The shot from like 60 frames. Imagine 1 out of 120. The good news is II can be customised and be set at less than 20fps while mk1 is stuck at either 1 or full 20.

Customized is a big word when the only option available under 20 fps is 5 fps. I don't understand why Canon doesn't allow the user to set a custom frame rate.

Curiously I have seen reviews claiming mk1 has a larger buffer and I can shoot a few good s to a fairly slow gen II SD card, whereas mkII just stops after 2s if that is correct. Anyway I am not a sports shooter, so that's only relevant if I want to be able to pick the sharpest shot at marginal settings or avoiding blinkies in a group shot.

I think the buffer size is the same measured in bytes. Measured in number of shots it will be a bit lower in the Mark II since the files are larger. Measured in seconds it will be noticeably lower - if you set the Mark II to 40 fps.

The sensor upgrade is very relevant if it significantly improves 1) SNR, 2) rolling shutter 3) removed AA filter. +4MP is nice but has a long way to go to match even A7IV, let alone R5, and sometimes smaller files just means lower overhead for editing when clients just need images for web, and that's a lot of my work.

The only way to improve a removed AA filter is to put it back.

We all have different needs. I would like to see 14 bits of ADC with the electronic shutter, whether it's the R5 Mark II or the R6 Mark III. That is more important for me than reducing the rolling shutter.

Sep 20, 2023 at 03:52 PM

Rudy Pohl
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Canon R5 II

90% of my time with my R5 + RF100-500 combo is spent doing high-resolution wildlife videos (4KHQ and 4K120p). I do mostly birds including Hummingbirds, Snowy Owls, Ospreys, Terns, Shorebirds, Warblers, Herons and Egrets, Geese and Ducks, Woodland and Grassland birds and others. I do stationary shots and lots of flight shots of all these species in there various habitats.

The two big R5 problems I have to deal with are, 1) rolling shutter during panning shots and, 2) IBIS wobble during handheld shots. I have had to discard many otherwise good clips because of one or the other of these two issues making the footage unusable.

I really hope that the R5II radically reduces, or better yet, eliminates these two issues. Fingers crossed.

Cheers,
Rudy

Sep 20, 2023 at 04:38 PM

armd
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Canon R5 II

Rudy Pohl wrote:
90% of my time with my R5 + RF100-500 combo is spent doing high-resolution wildlife videos (4KHQ and 4K120p). I do mostly birds including Hummingbirds, Snowy Owls, Ospreys, Terns, Shorebirds, Warblers, Herons and Egrets, Geese and Ducks, Woodland and Grassland birds and others. I do stationary shots and lots of flight shots of all these species in there various habitats.

The two big R5 problems I have to deal with are, 1) rolling shutter during panning shots and, 2) IBIS wobble during handheld shots. I have had to discard many otherwise good clips because of one or the other...Show more →

I think it will. While Canon's IBIS is not as refined as Nikon's VR, I think the greatest impediment for the R5 is the sensor read speed and that is likely to be the R5II's area of greatest improvement. I suspect that Canon will boost read speeds to the 1/180th sec or so +-. FWIW the wobble affects still shots as well.

Sep 20, 2023 at 05:38 PM

artsupreme
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Canon R5 II

armd wrote:
I think it will. While Canon's IBIS is not as refined as Nikon's VR, I think the greatest impediment for the R5 is the sensor read speed and that is likely to be the R5II's area of greatest improvement. I suspect that Canon will boost read speeds to the 1/180th sec or so +-. FWIW the wobble affects still shots as well.

I think the big question is what speed iis physically possible right now with a non-stacked sensor. Could they really achieve 1/180th at this stage? I hope so, but I'm guessing they could maybe double it at 1/120th. Just a complete guess but time will tell. If they are able to get it up to 1/180th that's in the territory of eliminating nearly all of the rolling shutter effects.

Sep 20, 2023 at 05:44 PM

artsupreme
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Canon R5 II

Rudy Pohl wrote:
90% of my time with my R5 + RF100-500 combo is spent doing high-resolution wildlife videos (4KHQ and 4K120p). I do mostly birds including Hummingbirds, Snowy Owls, Ospreys, Terns, Shorebirds, Warblers, Herons and Egrets, Geese and Ducks, Woodland and Grassland birds and others. I do stationary shots and lots of flight shots of all these species in there various habitats.

The two big R5 problems I have to deal with are, 1) rolling shutter during panning shots and, 2) IBIS wobble during handheld shots. I have had to discard many otherwise good clips because of one or the other...Show more →

I've shot a bunch of 4K HQ and 4K120 but I'm thinking of dabbling into some 8K RAW which will give the ability to crop and stabilize in post. Is there a reason why you don't shoot in 8K RAW or RAW light? Is it because of card space or heating issues?

Sep 20, 2023 at 05:45 PM

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