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Canon R5 II

cohenfive
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Canon R5 II

One of my points is that if the R5ii does not have a stacked sensor, they will look very much behind the technology trend and that may hurt them in a very important segment, the 'all around' camera. It's not like the tech doesn't exist since all of the big three have had stacked sensors in cameras for some time now. What works in terms of tech at a $2k price point (R6ii) will not work up against the best that Sony and Nikon have to offer. Price isn't really the issue, Canon gear tends to be higher priced these days so they could get away with a small premium to the Z8....but not without a stacked sensor. IMO

Sep 13, 2023 at 07:05 PM

Scott Stoness
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Canon R5 II

artsupreme wrote:
I hear you, so something possibly like this:

R1 flagship - 45MP stacked sensor, very fast dual Cfe - $6k range
R5r - non-stacked 61MP and slow - $3800 range
R5 - non-stacked 45MP and great all a-rounder - $3600 range
R3 - 24MP stacked sensor, super fast and reduced price closer to $4K range
R6 - 24MP affordable great all a-rounder - $2499
R7- 32.5MP budget crop
R8 - 24MP budget FF

They are not likely to get my buy with just R5R at 61mpx and slow. R, 80+ mpx, and 450 grams (skip the IBIS and make it light) is way more persuasive to landscape R5 people. If they just put a 80mpx R sensor in the R8 I would pay $3500. IBIS and extra weight do little for me. The R8 is a perfect camera with more mpx. It does great 4k/60fps video (that I seldom use) and 40fps eye focus wildlife (that I use a considerable amount).

It's odd how the R8 as the least expensive ff now has almost all the best ff landscape features. It is also pretty close to the R3 in features. And aside from battery, its so close to the R6ii.

Sep 13, 2023 at 08:25 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Canon R5 II

Scott Stoness wrote:
[They are not likely to get my buy with just R5R at 61mpx and slow. R, 80+ mpx, and 450 grams (skip the IBIS and make it light) is way more persuasive to landscape R5 people. If they just put a 80mpx R sensor in the R8 I would pay $3500. IBIS and extra weight do little for me. The R8 is a perfect camera with more mpx. It does great 4k/60fps video (that I seldom use) and 40fps eye focus wildlife (that I use a considerable amount).

It's odd how the R8 as the least expensive ff now...Show more →

R5 with 61 MP won't be very compelling to me either. It isn't enough of a bump over what my 5DsR already does. I know that sensors will improve and other things will be faster, but... the 5DsR works great for what I use it for

75MP to 80MP would probably convince me, though it isn't a slam-dunk thing at the point since I'd ultimately likely be looking at a full set of new lenses, which suggests considering other brands, too — since the benefits of upgrading a body and keeping the lenses is minimized.

I think your 450g hope is pretty unrealistic for a FF body. It could be done, but not in a camera that would have wide appeal, I'm afraid. Getting down to that weight would require some real compromises in handling, probability durability, and other things, at least from the perspective of the majority of the market.

While my use of such a camera probably would not rely on IBIS that much — though I do use IS when photographing birds with my 5DsR — at this point it is going to be included in a high end camera. Hoping for a 450g camera and one that eschews IBIS is asking Canon to do the impossible in the market, I'm afraid.

Oh, they also aren't going to put their highest resolution sensor in a R8-like body. But you knew that. :-)

(SLIGHTLY EDITED)

Edited on Sep 14, 2023 at 11:35 AM · View previous versions

Sep 13, 2023 at 11:29 PM

artsupreme
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Canon R5 II

Scott Stoness wrote:
They are not likely to get my buy with just R5R at 61mpx and slow. R, 80+ mpx, and 450 grams (skip the IBIS and make it light) is way more persuasive to landscape R5 people. If they just put a 80mpx R sensor in the R8 I would pay $3500. IBIS and extra weight do little for me. The R8 is a perfect camera with more mpx. It does great 4k/60fps video (that I seldom use) and 40fps eye focus wildlife (that I use a considerable amount).

It's odd how the R8 as the least expensive ff now...Show more →

This is probably the closest you are going to get for that unless Canon releases an 80MP "R5r Mini":

430 grams with ibis:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1784157-REG/sony_a7cr_mirrorless_camera_black.html

Sep 14, 2023 at 10:34 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Canon R5 II

artsupreme wrote:
This is probably the closest you are going to get for that unless Canon releases an 80MP "R5r Mini":

430 grams with ibis:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1784157-REG/sony_a7cr_mirrorless_camera_black.html

I don't know much of anything about that camera other than what I see here, but such a small, lightweight 61MP FF body looks like a pretty good indicator of what is possible and could be a viable (even excellent?) option for a landscape photographer looking to minimize gear size and weight.

Sep 14, 2023 at 11:37 AM

artsupreme
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
I don't know much of anything about that camera other than what I see here, but such a small, lightweight 61MP FF body looks like a pretty good indicator of what is possible and could be a viable (even excellent?) option for a landscape photographer looking to minimize gear size and weight.

Yeah if I'm a landscape photographer looking for the smallest/lightest/highest MP body available this is the one. There's also a grip that makes it bigger if desired for other use.

Sep 14, 2023 at 11:52 AM

rscheffler
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Canon R5 II

cohenfive wrote:
One of my points is that if the R5ii does not have a stacked sensor, they will look very much behind the technology trend and that may hurt them in a very important segment, the 'all around' camera. It's not like the tech doesn't exist since all of the big three have had stacked sensors in cameras for some time now. What works in terms of tech at a $2k price point (R6ii) will not work up against the best that Sony and Nikon have to offer. Price isn't really the issue, Canon gear tends to be higher priced these...Show more →

The only ~50MP stacked sensor that Sony offers is in the a1, which is effectively their current "R1" camera. The a7rV is not stacked and is slow. It's really only the Z8 that is currently sitting in that 'all rounder' category and the question in my mind is whether Canon will pretend it doesn't exist and offer a ~50MP stacked sensor only in the R1. Had the a7rV been stacked, then yes, I think Canon would be virtually forced to go stacked in an R5II. But it isn't and Sony hasn't yet offered a ~50MP stacked option at the Z8's price point (it could end up being the a1 once the a1 II arrives).

A stacked R5II might cut too close to the rumored R1 for Canon's liking. IMO it will depend a lot on what Sony does, in addition to Nikon's first move. But I don't disagree with you that stacked in an R5II would be a good thing.

Sep 14, 2023 at 02:08 PM

jedibrain
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Canon R5 II

I HOPE it's the same price as the R5 at launch, and stacked sensor. The rolling shutter is what I am after eliminating. MP nice but not necessary. The rest of the features of the R5/6 are already enough for me. So beyond stacking the sensor I don't reallybdesire anything.

I agree with one of the sentiments posted above. Sony has a nice and cheaper lens collection at the moment, if you ignore the used EF market. But body wise I don't see a major advantage. I'm mainly shooting action now, and all the recent Ssony releases are dreadfully slow compared to R5/6. But not everyone has my same needs, so I'm not saying they are junk. Just not absolutely ahead. Nikon is doing some interesting stuff. If only they had Canons's, or Sony's AF!

Brian

Sep 15, 2023 at 01:00 AM

VailJohnson
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Canon R5 II

tanikon58 wrote:
I have heard a rumor will be introduced in the early 2024 to the consumers but it has not mentioned the sale price yet? I would snap one of the first batch since the back order after the first one will take longer than expected.
Does anyone know the same price? Perhaps in the range of $3500-$4000 or more? Thank you

It’ll be between $3,499 and $3,899 but not more. If it’s exactly the same even adjusted for inflation which will be about 2.5% it won’t go over $4,000.

Sep 15, 2023 at 07:49 AM

armd
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Canon R5 II

jedibrain wrote:
I HOPE it's the same price as the R5 at launch, and stacked sensor. The rolling shutter is what I am after eliminating. MP nice but not necessary. The rest of the features of the R5/6 are already enough for me. So beyond stacking the sensor I don't reallybdesire anything.

I agree with one of the sentiments posted above. Sony has a nice and cheaper lens collection at the moment, if you ignore the used EF market. But body wise I don't see a major advantage. I'm mainly shooting action now, and all the recent Ssony releases are dreadfully slow...Show more →

Unlikely to be a BIS for the reasons mentioned. The more probable course is an increase in sensor read speed which will minimize the rolling shutter. Canon's BIS will be featured/reserved for the R3 (already) and the R1.

With respect to Sony, I find their lens offerings ok though the bodies just never worked for me in terms of ergonomics and feel.
As a WL shooter, Nikon had way more interesting lenses in their mid-priced range and their AF works just fine, albeit a bit more complicated and reliant on user input.

Canon's strong EF lineup and the fact that the latest ones work perfectly on all of their MILC bodies is a compelling reason to remain with Canon while they expand the RF catalog. With the exception of the gap in high performing, mid-priced, long lenses for WL, and failure to open up the mount to third parties, I have few complaints.

Sep 15, 2023 at 08:16 AM

arbitrage
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Canon R5 II

The only camera out there that puts any pressure on Canon releasing a stacked high-MP (45+) sensor in a mid-grade body is the Nikon Z8.
Sony has nothing in that ballpark with the $6500 A1 being their only high-MP stacked sensor and that will compete with hypothetical R1.
Sony is rumoured to be releasing an A9III between Nov-Feb....Olympic camera. There have been no good rumours on what the MP count will be but it is guessed it will be as low as the current 24MP (just way faster) or up to at best 33-35MP. So even that at current A9II $4500 price point for a stacked sensor isn't putting that much pressure on Canon R5II to have 45+MP stacked.

Really depends on if Canon is worried about Z8 stealing customers. I'm not sure if they really are. I don't see Sony having a mid-tier stacked high-MP sensor camera in the foreseeable future. Lower stacked MP A9III end of 2023 and then A1II...expensive high MP stacked by end of 2024 or even spring 2025 (4 year A1 anniversary)

Sep 15, 2023 at 08:32 AM

jedibrain
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Canon R5 II

armd wrote:
Unlikely to be a BIS for the reasons mentioned. The more probable course is an increase in sensor read speed which will minimize the rolling shutter. Canon's BIS will be featured/reserved for the R3 (already) and the R1.

With respect to Sony, I find their lens offerings ok though the bodies just never worked for me in terms of ergonomics and feel.
As a WL shooter, Nikon had way more interesting lenses in their mid-priced range and their AF works just fine, albeit a bit more complicated and reliant on user input.

Canon's strong EF lineup and the fact that the...Show more →

You might be right about the stacked sensor thing remining for the 1 and 3 only. But I sort of don't think we'll see an R3mkII. Of course I know nothing, but the last example of two flag ships was the 1D and 1DS thing they did a while back, right? Maybe that is now the R1 and R3, or maybe the R3 was just a place holder for the R1 after all, and won't be directly replaced. We'll see. But if its not, that gives some headroom to 'upscale' the R5. This is of course counter to my desire to see them keep the price point the same on the R5 series...lol. But what I want them to do and what they will do are not really related except when by coincidence!

But you're right that stacked sensor is only one way to solve the rolling shutter. Faster readout is another. Even BSI isn't totally necessary, as current FSI sensors have pretty close to the same noise performance as BSI offerings. There was a period of time that wasn't true, so you could possibly see the same - non-stacked becoming (for practical purposes) as fast as stacked in terms of readout speed (again - practically/functionally if not datasheet wise).

Brian

Sep 15, 2023 at 08:47 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Canon R5 II

VailJohnson wrote:
It’ll be between $3,499 and $3,899 but not more. If it’s exactly the same even adjusted for inflation which will be about 2.5% it won’t go over $4,000.

Not sure why we should expect that Canon will introduce a new, upgraded version of a popular, successful camera at the same or lower list price than when the original was introduced roughly five years earlier. (R5 list price is $3899.99.)

armd wrote:
Canon's BIS will be featured/reserved for the R3 (already) and the R1.

When other manufacturers (e.g. Fujifilm) are trending toward putting IBIS in cameras more broadly across their lines, I don't think that a strategy of reserving IBIS for only the very top models is going to be viable for very long.

The situation, at least for now, with stacked sensors is a different ball of wax. Eventually those will become the norm, but we aren't quite there yet.

- - -

BTW, I don't think that stacked sensors "solve" the rolling shutter issue — unless I'm misconstruing something. It is my understanding they can _improve_ that issue, but it won't be solved until we get global shutter cameras.

Sep 15, 2023 at 09:34 AM

artsupreme
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
Not sure why we should expect that Canon will introduce a new, upgraded version of a popular, successful camera at the same or lower list price than when the original was introduced roughly five years earlier. (R5 list price is $3899.99.)

When other manufacturers (e.g. Fujifilm) are trending toward putting IBIS in cameras more broadly across their lines, I don't think that a strategy of reserving IBIS for only the very top models is going to be viable for very long.

The situation, at least for now, with stacked sensors is a different ball of wax. Eventually those will become the...Show more →

I’m pretty sure he meant BSI, I don’t think he was talking about IBIS

Sep 15, 2023 at 09:47 AM

artsupreme
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Canon R5 II

I asked in another thread but no one seems to know so I will ask again here. If the R5 current read out speed is 1/60 of a second, how much could they improve that speed to close the gap to a stacked sensor read out speed of 1/200 of a second? If they can double or greatly improve the non-stacked readout speed closer to 1/120th then that’s all they need to do with the current sensor. Not sure if this is possible, but the efficiency and performance of chips has hockey sticked during the last few years. Then they can price it below the Z8 and it will be a fair comparison at a lower price point.

Sep 15, 2023 at 09:59 AM

artsupreme
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
BTW, I don't think that stacked sensors "solve" the rolling shutter issue — unless I'm misconstruing something. It is my understanding they can _improve_ that issue, but it won't be solved until we get global shutter cameras.

It might not solve it completely but it's pretty much gone with the R3. If there's still some rolling shutter effect there it's not easily noticeable to the eye. The other big thing people want out of a stacked sensor is lack of blackout i.e. slideshow affect when shooting action. I've just become used to it on the R5 but it will obviously improve with the R5II.

Sep 15, 2023 at 11:14 AM

jedibrain
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
- - -

BTW, I don't think that stacked sensors "solve" the rolling shutter issue — unless I'm misconstruing something. It is my understanding they can _improve_ that issue, but it won't be solved until we get global shutter cameras.

I think you are right. Its not technically zero on a mechanical shutter either, but it is PRACTICALLY solved on the R3 with a 1/200 read out speed. Practically meaning the effect is not noticeable in photos. So for sure once a regular non-stacked reacheds some threshold (1/100? 1/120? 1/160?) it could make it to the point where its fast enough to be essentialy as good as a stacked one,

As i posted above, this happened with FSI sensors on noise levels as compared to BSI (non stacked). THere was a generation where BSI had a big advantage, and now adays you cant really tell a difference.

Brian

Sep 15, 2023 at 12:07 PM

armd
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Canon R5 II

Back-illuminated sensor or backside illuminated sensor - commonly abbreviated as BSI or BIS. Differs from IBIS (in body image stabilization). Too many acronyms.

With respect to read out speeds, I suspect that Canon will be able to double the r/o speed of the current sensor, reducing rolling shutter very effectively. Global shutter CMOS exist, but aren't inexpensive enough for the mass consumer, photography market, yet.

Sep 15, 2023 at 01:05 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Canon R5 II

artsupreme wrote:
I’m pretty sure he meant BSI, I don’t think he was talking about IBIS

Good catch. I'll be you are right.

armd wrote:
Back-illuminated sensor or backside illuminated sensor - commonly abbreviated as BSI or BIS. Differs from IBIS (in body image stabilization). Too many acronyms.

Heh. Yes. I still see people using MF to mean both four-thirds and medium format.

With respect to read out speeds, I suspect that Canon will be able to double the r/o speed of the current sensor, reducing rolling shutter very effectively. Global shutter CMOS exist, but aren't inexpensive enough for the mass consumer, photography market, yet.

Improving readout speed — whether by increasing the "current sensor" speed or by going to BSI — would both _improve_ the rolling shutter issue. That's a good thing, more for some subjects than for others.

Global shutter is still out there on the distant horizon for the kinds of cameras we use... but it will arrive eventually and that will literally eliminate rolling shutter and probably offer a few other pluses as well.

Sep 15, 2023 at 01:53 PM

VailJohnson
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
Not sure why we should expect that Canon will introduce a new, upgraded version of a popular, successful camera at the same or lower list price than when the original was introduced roughly five years earlier. (R5 list price is $3899.99.)

Depending if you buy grey market or not. But it won’t be more than $4,000.

The R6 came out 2020: MSRP: $2,499
The R6 II came out 2022: MSRP: $2,499

The R7 came out 2022: MSRP: $1,499
The R8 came out 2023: MSRP: $1,499

So yes. I don’t believe the R5 II will be more than $3,899

Sep 16, 2023 at 07:38 AM

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