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Canon R5 II

Mike Jacks0n
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
...

On the other hand, if they could make a R5 with a 45 MP sensor and its other capabilities a few years back, surely they could increase the sensor resolution in a R5II and keep the other performance capabilities, leaving the R3 for the small number of folks for whom that isn't enough.

It will be interesting to see where this ends up.

The tech is definitely available to move more pixels just as fast as the R5. In all honesty, from what I saw in the R5, there was probably headroom to bump up many specs a little in it, with heat being the only limiting factor. I think the R5C is the strongest indicator of that. They doubled the frame rate of its most demanding feature (8k 30fps to 8k 60fps) after adding a fan. IIRC, there was no improved processor in the marketing. So that suggests the R5 was always capable of it, with the appropriate cooling.

If they plan to lean on the CF Express IV architecture, 60MP at 20fps seems very doable (likely at 12-bit levels). I do think that would be near the edge of a conventional sensor's output though. This may be the strongest reason why they would consider using an expensive stacked sensor. They simply may have run out of data bandwidth without it. Things in the camera biz are moving really fast right now because of the number of enablers that recently became available. Its all on the table, but who knows what they will deem the right choice.

Sep 11, 2023 at 03:09 PM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Canon R5 II

artsupreme wrote:
so something possibly like this:

R1 flagship - 45MP stacked sensor, very fast dual Cfe - $6k range

by keeping R1 in 45mp range they can deliver much more on other stuff rather then try to go noticeable above Sony's 50mp (or is 51 ?) and delivering less... they can try to beat/match Nikon on readout / x-sync, but still can keep shutter just in case , increase FPS much more than with higher MP sensor, do 8K video from full sensor width, etc .... so me being Canon I'd go for 45mp stacked sensor and max all other things above what can be achieved with 60-80mp stacked sensor... and price can be more affordable ... I think not even Thom Hogan thinks Nikon will have Z9II for Olympics and Sony might just go along with A1 + A9 mark III .... so Canon's side why tear the a$$ by going above 45mp stacked ? hoping for mass jump from Sony and Nikon ? I do not think it happens with Canon pricing for that being A LOT...45mp will keep territory, prevent migration, might entice some people to come back if they like Canon ergonomics, etc... and easier to manufacture and again easier to move it to lower tier cameras later down the road ( which is a win ! ), etc

Sep 11, 2023 at 03:21 PM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Canon R5 II

Mike Jacks0n wrote:
reason why they would consider using an expensive stacked sensor.
and it will need cooling too ... it is not like stacking makes stuff run cooler

Sep 11, 2023 at 03:25 PM

Mike Jacks0n
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Canon R5 II

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:
Canon managed to deliver just one stacked sensor to the date... Sony Semi delivered stacked sensors for A9/A9II, A1, Z8/Z9, X-H2S, OM-1 (quad pixel AF that one)... why people think that Canon all of sudden will deliver more than one more ( for R1 ) when their business strategy is (A) maximum milk of the faithful and (B) grab the very lowest end ?

Also note, Canon has been delivering stacked sensors for years. Their Ad Hoc line of sensors has been available for industrial use for years. Currently they have a global shutter sensor (stacked) 3.4µm pixel size, with around average DR, capturing at 60 fps. It is a low megapixel sensor though because it is a super small sensor format, 8.8 mm x 7.0 mm. But using the pixel size, 3.4 µm, that puts it in the range of a 35mm sensor with a resolution of 65-70 MPs. Obviously it isn't a one to one thing, but it shows what's possible. Or in this case, what has been close to possible for years now. I want to say they had this available back in 2018, but definitely a version in 2020, and new version earlier this year.

I want to say they made a sensor fab update about 10 years ago to accommodate stacked sensors along with the other facets, they just haven't found a consumer formula that made sense yet. But times are changing.

All that said, I still think you are right, a conventional FSI sensor is the one to expect from the R5 II, but it wouldn't be a HUGE surprise if they chose another way.

Sep 11, 2023 at 03:32 PM

FrenchFry
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Canon R5 II

I think we'll probably see either a stacked 45MP R5II or a slightly higher MP non-stacked version of the R5II, like 60MP.

I was under the impression that a stacked sensor would help boost autofocusing speeds since the camera is reading the information faster, leading to improved tracking. I guess comparing the R6II and R3 side by side with the same lens could help quantify whether there is a noticeable difference.

If so, then my personal preference would be for the stacked 45MP version, since higher MP cameras require much more precise tracking and AF when pixel-peeping.

If the camera does not have a stacked sensor, it will be a harder sell for me. I might hold out until the R1 in that case, though I would be happier with the smaller form factor of the R5.

Sep 11, 2023 at 05:05 PM

artsupreme
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Canon R5 II

FrenchFry wrote:
I think we'll probably see either a stacked 45MP R5II or a slightly higher MP non-stacked version of the R5II, like 60MP.

I was under the impression that a stacked sensor would help boost autofocusing speeds since the camera is reading the information faster, leading to improved tracking. I guess comparing the R6II and R3 side by side with the same lens could help quantify whether there is a noticeable difference.

If so, then my personal preference would be for the stacked 45MP version, since higher MP cameras require much more precise tracking and AF when pixel-peeping.

If the camera...Show more →

I think most people who want a stacked sensor are wanting to get rid of rolling shutter. AF improvements are welcome but the game changer from a stack sensor is no rolling shutter effects. The R5 is quite the weeble-wobbler, but I think they can improve it without a stacked sensor and hit the right price point.

Sep 11, 2023 at 05:14 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Canon R5 II

artsupreme wrote:
I will also mention, the R5r (or whatever the 5DSr replacement is called) should technically be more than the 61MP competition that was released in December 2022. Not sure if they'll exceed that, but I think they should at least match that resolution. Would a nice performing 61MP R5r move the needle for you or do landscape photographers want even more?

61MP would move the needle, but only enough to replace the 5DsR if it started to have problems. The difference between 50MP and 60MP (like the difference between 45MP and 50MP) is not very significant. I'd be looking for at least 70-80MP, with the upper number more appealing. Given the current state of sensor design in recent cameras this should be possible. (As someone pointed out in another post, there were FF 61MP sensors four years ago.)

Part of the issue is that I have a set of EF lenses that work really nicely with the 5DsR. Although my other non-Canon system is mirrorless, I don't feel that moving to mirrorless itself is that compelling for what I do with my high-MP camera — so the main thing would be the MP increase, along with the opportunity to shift to RF lenses. Thought that is a bit of a double-edge sword — once I start thinking about replacing lenses I feel less dedicated to a Canon choice and other options are a bit more appealing, too.

Scott Stoness wrote:
I agree with you - for landscape photographers 45mpx leaves me looking over the fence at fuji and Sony and Nikon. It would be really nice to have a 80mpx + body, that is light (450grams) and without the AA filter. I would not be excited by stacked sensor.

60mpx vs 45 only increases print size/croppability by 15% - that barely moves the dial. 80mpx would enable 33% bigger prints. That would move the dial.

Yes, that's a succinct statement of how I feel about sensor resolution at this point.

I'd prefer to AA filter, though (after testing the 5Ds against the 5DsR some time ago) I am no longer sure that it really makes that much difference one way or the other. I'd take a stacked sensor if there was one, but it is not high on my list of needs at all.

- - -

A general observation about some other comments in this thread: Sticking at 45MP would like not be a wise marketing move for Canon, given that they _were_ the high MP leader when the 5Ds/5DsR were introduced, they lost that with the R5, and another 45MP camera would generate cries of (similar to some in this thread!) "Canon is trying to foist obsolete technology on us!" and "Canon is falling behind."

The only way they could get away with that would be by making the 45MP camera a complete beast in other ways mostly related to operational speed AND also introducing a higher MP body that outdoes the competition.

Sep 11, 2023 at 05:41 PM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Canon R5 II

artsupreme wrote:
I think most people who want a stacked sensor are wanting to get rid of rolling shutter. AF improvements are welcome but the game changer from a stack sensor is no rolling shutter effects. The R5 is quite the weeble-wobbler, but I think they can improve it without a stacked sensor and hit the right price point.

It's not just rolling shutter that's the problem, but also EVF blackout making it very hard to follow your subject while continuous shooting such as with birds in flight.

Sep 11, 2023 at 05:41 PM

artsupreme
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Canon R5 II

Sep 11, 2023 at 05:42 PM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Canon R5 II

FrenchFry wrote:
I think we'll probably see either a stacked 45MP R5II

we will not see a 3rd tier camera (R1 -> R3 -> R5 ) getting stacked sensor

Sep 11, 2023 at 06:21 PM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Canon R5 II

Mike Jacks0n wrote:
Also note, Canon has been delivering stacked sensors for years.

a lot of companies were delivering all kind of sensors for use outside of cameras for photographers... fact is that we have R3 on one side and A9/A9II/A1/Z8/Z9/X-H2S/OM-1 on the other side.

Sep 11, 2023 at 06:25 PM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Canon R5 II

gdanmitchell wrote:
they _were_ the high MP leader when the 5Ds/5DsR were introduced, they lost that with the R5

they lost it once A7R4 was released in 2019 ( not when R5 was released in 2020 )... they were not a leader for 4 years ( 2019-2023) after being a leader for 4 years ( 2015 - 2019 ) ... not the end of the world... some might say that neven 45mp D850 in 2017 effectively put Nikon on par, because while Nikon was just 3-4% nominal resolution lower it was simply way better (to the tune of couple of stops - that not like 3-4% barely perceptible resolution loss) DR @ base nominal ISO - which does matter for landscape and similar stuff ...

Sep 11, 2023 at 06:36 PM

cohenfive
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Canon R5 II

Interesting comments...I am surprised how many don't think Canon will put a stacked sensor in the R5ii. If they don't, the camera won't have specs as good as Nikon's Z8...and in my mind, that would be a market failure. I think the R5ii will have a stacked sensor of similar resolution to v1. It will have much faster readout, no shutter distortion, faster fps, and better af. It will be priced pretty much where the v1 was. That will be a great all arounder with current tech. That's what I hope they do.

Sep 12, 2023 at 09:40 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Canon R5 II

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:
they lost it once A7R4 was released in 2019 ( not when R5 was released in 2020 )... they were not a leader for 4 years ( 2019-2023) after being a leader for 4 years ( 2015 - 2019 ) ... not the end of the world... some might say that neven 45mp D850 in 2017 effectively put Nikon on par, because while Nikon was just 3-4% nominal resolution lower it was simply way better (to the tune of couple of stops - that not like 3-4% barely perceptible resolution loss) DR @ base nominal ISO - which does matter...Show more →

You do seem to have a bit of an ax to grind in this forum, don't you?

Sep 12, 2023 at 09:41 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Canon R5 II

Rudy Pohl wrote:
It's not just rolling shutter that's the problem, but also EVF blackout making it very hard to follow your subject while continuous shooting such as with birds in flight.

I would love to see a global shutter system with no blackout. I think it would be quite useful in many ways. But...

... to some extent it seems a bit ironic to lament the blackout on mirrorless cameras when we barely noticed the blackout on DSLRs. Mostly we adapted, and I think that many have adapted similarly on mirrorless.

Again, that's not to say that doing away with the blackout would not be a good thing — just that maybe it isn't as much of an issue as we imagine it to be.

Sep 12, 2023 at 09:44 PM

BokehBeauty
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Canon R5 II

cohenfive wrote:
Interesting comments...I am surprised how many don't think Canon will put a stacked sensor in the R5ii. If they don't, the camera won't have specs as good as Nikon's Z8...and in my mind, that would be a market failure. I think the R5ii will have a stacked sensor of similar resolution to v1. It will have much faster readout, no shutter distortion, faster fps, and better af. It will be priced pretty much where the v1 was. That will be a great all arounder with current tech. That's what I hope they do.

I would love to see such a spec plus black-out-free EVF, and buy it in a heartbeat, but doubt it very much. Canon has never improved the 5 series from release to release by that much. Also stacked sensor of 45MPix requires very modern semiconductor manufacturing, which Canon is not known off. Furthermore the competing Sony A7R V was a nicely rounded upgrade but no real innovation on the sensor front. As the technological innovation slows down, the Japanese don’t step on each other toes.

Sep 12, 2023 at 10:18 PM

artsupreme
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Canon R5 II

cohenfive wrote:
Interesting comments...I am surprised how many don't think Canon will put a stacked sensor in the R5ii. If they don't, the camera won't have specs as good as Nikon's Z8...and in my mind, that would be a market failure. I think the R5ii will have a stacked sensor of similar resolution to v1. It will have much faster readout, no shutter distortion, faster fps, and better af. It will be priced pretty much where the v1 was. That will be a great all arounder with current tech. That's what I hope they do.

We all hope you are right as I would love a stacked sensor R5 for under $4K. I based my prediction on an improved non stacked sensor with better AF and minor incremental upgrades that will be priced below the Z8. if the price difference is big enough between the two, they can be fairly compared at different price points. But if not, there's going to be a lot of noise about it. I hope Canon proves me wrong, but I just don't see a stacked sensor in the cards. The other option would be to increase the MP a bit but I personally would rather have a refined 45MP sensor that's faster than the current R5. Canon can release a separate body for the high MP crowd.

Sep 13, 2023 at 08:56 AM

robinlee
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Canon R5 II

artsupreme wrote:
I like it, you could be spot on. But that price if non stacked is going to produce a lot of noise unless there's something that makes the R5II much better than the Z8. One could argue AF, but that's splitting hairs. I agree with you we might not see more fps options as it seems like something they would have already introduced if it was simple to do.

It is based on the R6II spec and Canon's general pricing strategy point of view. Of course, we would like a lower price than Z8 and maybe a $100-$200 increase for a stacked sensor. Yes, I do hope they have a stack sensor for the R5II and I forgot to mention blackout-free as well. I missed this on Canon when I was pre-maturely with the Sony A9 before Canon announced R5.

Lowering my expectations, so if Canon gives us a better spec and price, then I'll be over the moon

Sep 13, 2023 at 11:34 AM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Canon R5 II

BokehBeauty wrote:
I would love to see such a spec plus black-out-free EVF, and buy it in a heartbeat, but doubt it very much. Canon has never improved the 5 series from release to release by that much. Also stacked sensor of 45MPix requires very modern semiconductor manufacturing, which Canon is not known off. Furthermore the competing Sony A7R V was a nicely rounded upgrade but no real innovation on the sensor front. As the technological innovation slows down, the Japanese don’t step on each other toes.

we can also note that despite Z9, Z8 Sony did not bother to start selling A1 cheaper... nor they rush to put stacked sensor in the likes of A7R* cameras ... because they do not feel any threat , why 'd Canon feel it ? if Canon feels an urge to answer then technologically and cost vs price wise they are better served with R5 body with more mp ( but it will be good to call it R5s/r and not R5II ) vs A7R* 60mp line ( and continue to sell R5 @ lower price of <= $3K with finally giving it v2 firmware ) and 45mp stacked sensor for R1 line ( and when production costs go down for that sensor - it can be fed down to R3II ... or may be years later to R5III ) - but I am repeating myself

Sep 13, 2023 at 05:04 PM

PhilH
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Canon R5 II

Just to put my 2 cents in on this.

I think at this stage in R cameras, we'll likely be looking at sensors built around the core technology used in the R3 (BSI Stacked CMOS). Quantum efficiency and noise floor benefits are there and Canon does good work with color.

This provides two main thoughts. Look at the design of the current R5 sensor and certainly look at a higher resolution option.

R5 MK II is bound to happen. R1 has been rumored for so long and there hasn't been a release in that general pricing tier for a very long time. And Canon hasn't made a digital cinema camera in a hot minute, heck, a hot hour.

Also, though many won't see the need or demand for it, some of us do, I want 16-bit now for any premium stills camera.

Sep 13, 2023 at 05:38 PM

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