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Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

chiron
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

The main deficit for me in almost all of Sony's cameras is that they lack a really good way of dealing with the LED lighting that is rapidly becoming universal. If one wants to shoot in electronic silent shutter mode, as I do virtually all the time, then the slow read-out times of non-stacked sensors produce banding under LED lights and also produce the related problem of rolling shutter and the distortion of fast movements.

A stacked sensor with a fast read-out eliminates both of these problems almost all of the time. With my A1 and my A9, both with stacked sensors and fast read-out, I personally never have had banding despite shooting constantly under LED lights. But the A9 is relatively lower rez these days and the A1 is quite expensive and I never have needed its sports and BIF features that add to its price.

I find the variable shutter solution that is implemented in the new A7Cxx bodies and in the A7RV to be a kludgy and incomplete solution that requires too much attention and compromise (e.g., can't use aperture priority mode) and is prone to a failure to prevent banding.

The stacked sensor is an expensive sensor to make, and increasing its resolution adds to the cost. But it should be possible to get up to about 40 or 42 mpix with a stacked sensor without breaking the bank.

The upcoming A93 and A2 will certainly be stacked sensor. But the A93 is likely to be lower rez and still expensive and the A2 will again be a very expensive camera.

It would be a breakthrough if Sony could make a camera in the mold and the moderate size of the A7R3 with a stacked sensor and no more than $4k in price.

If they had put a stacked sensor in one or both of the new A7Cxx cameras and added a couple of hundred to the price, those cameras would be perfect and fabulous.

Sep 07, 2023 at 07:56 AM

joychris
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

I’d like to see that too, but the XH2s is $2400 for a much smaller stacked sensor. How many would buy a hypothetical a9c at $4000 or so? I’d be willing to bet they’ve looked into something like that given how they have multiple variants with all the non stacked sensors.

Chris

Sep 07, 2023 at 08:07 AM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

Hello and exactly my bitch. I sell 30 grand a year in images about 40 thousand of them ALL under LED
Lighting so without a stacked sensor and e shutter I have to depend on full mechanical shutter to get this done . So my bitch about it is my livelihood. So that’s where I’m coming from but no one gets that part of the issue with cameras that are coming out without full mechanical shutters.

I’m out of this as I’m on vacation but this hits my bank account. I’m doing fine with my A7RV but it’s work. There is no frequency standard for a zillion LED type lighting either

Sep 07, 2023 at 08:22 AM

pulper11
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

I'm not familiar with all brands but I don't think this is offered with Canon or Nikon either. The only canon MILC is the R3 and it is low resolution. And expensive! The only Nikons are the Z8 and Z9 and both of those are expensive.

Again, I could be wrong on these but that's what I remember from reading. If I'm not wrong, then it either is very expensive (as you say) to create a camera with a stacked sensor with high resolution, or demand is so high for this that they can have a large margin of profit on their sales. Perhaps a little of both is true.

I personally look at the prices for these cameras now and am amazed at how high they are.

The benefits of the A2 coming out (if/when it does) is that at some point the A1 will become cheaper especially used.

Sep 07, 2023 at 08:36 AM

j4nu
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

Sony won't do it because it goes against their market segmenting. They want you to buy more than one camera

...
In Nikonland there's Z8 which ticks most of the boxes, but it's relatively large compared to Sony bodies and has a weak battery...
Back to Sony though, Var shutter is still required in mixed lightning so I think it's the best way (it even has frequency auto-detect now) to go currently...

Sep 07, 2023 at 08:44 AM

jwpstl
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

It might be a “breakthrough“ for Sony but not the industry as Nikon already produced a higher res stacked full frame sensor camera for $4000. That’s definitely something I’d like to see from Sony and would probably be my next purchase. I’m not a fan of the Z8’s size and am heavily invested in E-mount glass so no plans to switch.

Sep 07, 2023 at 08:56 AM

tonychen
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

You are asking an A1 with price tag below $3000. It's technically possible but the marketing department won't let this camera exist.

The closest solution is to wait used A1 price drops after A2 release.

chiron wrote:
The main deficit for me in almost all of Sony's cameras is that they lack a really good way of dealing with the LED lighting that is rapidly becoming universal. If one wants to shoot in electronic silent shutter mode, as I do virtually all the time, then the slow read-out times of non-stacked sensors produce banding under LED lights and also produce the related problem of rolling shutter and the distortion of fast movements.

A stacked sensor with a fast read-out eliminates both of these problems almost all of the time. With my A1 and my A9, both with stacked...Show more →

Sep 07, 2023 at 09:12 AM

chez
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

chiron wrote:
The main deficit for me in almost all of Sony's cameras is that they lack a really good way of dealing with the LED lighting that is rapidly becoming universal. If one wants to shoot in electronic silent shutter mode, as I do virtually all the time, then the slow read-out times of non-stacked sensors produce banding under LED lights and also produce the related problem of rolling shutter and the distortion of fast movements.

A stacked sensor with a fast read-out eliminates both of these problems almost all of the time. With my A1 and my A9, both with stacked...Show more →

Why doesn’t your A9 handle the times you need to shoot under led lights. Surely the resolution of the A9 should be fine for events no?

Sep 07, 2023 at 09:28 AM

molson
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

j4nu wrote:
In Nikonland there's Z8 which ticks most of the boxes, but it's relatively large compared to Sony bodies and has a weak battery...

... and no option to use a mechanical shutter when there's no other solution to the lighting problem.

Sep 07, 2023 at 09:34 AM

snapsy
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

pulper11 wrote:
I'm not familiar with all brands but I don't think this is offered with Canon or Nikon either. The only canon MILC is the R3 and it is low resolution. And expensive! The only Nikons are the Z8 and Z9 and both of those are expensive.

Again, I could be wrong on these but that's what I remember from reading. If I'm not wrong, then it either is very expensive (as you say) to create a camera with a stacked sensor with high resolution, or demand is so high for this that they can have a large margin of profit on...Show more →

Nikon Z8 is the closest. 1/270 electronic shutter, $4K, 45MP, best-for-Nikon AF, medium-sized body.

Sep 07, 2023 at 09:48 AM

tschopp
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

Do we know if the stacked sensor actually costs more to make? Seems kind of like the idea that a higher MP sensor costs more to make, do we actually know this? Is there a lower yield in good sensors or does it take longer to manufacturer?

I could see all of this being artificial pricing to get different market segments.

Sep 07, 2023 at 09:51 AM

Craig Gillette
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

Sony could put that sensor used in the Fuji X-H2S, even if not going all the way to 40 fps, in an A6700 type body. There's about $1000 between the A6700 price and the X-H2S so a reasonable price increase probably wouldn't be unbearable.

Sep 07, 2023 at 09:57 AM

chiron
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

chez wrote:
Why doesn’t your A9 handle the times you need to shoot under led lights. Surely the resolution of the A9 should be fine for events no?

Yes, the A9 works very well under LEDs, and I use it a lot. But it would be nice to have a camera like the A7R3 in size, resolution, and frame rate, with current AF and a stacked sensor so that one camera covers it all. I love my A9, but sooner or later it is going to be well behind the current technology. Unfortunately, I don't think Sony is ever going to do that.

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:02 AM

chiron
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

tonychen wrote:
You are asking an A1 with price tag below $3000. It's technically possible but the marketing department won't let this camera exist.

The closest solution is to wait used A1 price drops after A2 release.

I didn't say it had to be under $3K! I wouldn't expect that. I'd buy it in a flash if it were $4K, like the Nikon Z8, but smaller and with Sony autofocus & battery.

I ended up by not loving my A1. I sold a super-mint copy to someone who will actually use its features. I wasn't using most of those features, so the only thing it was actually giving me that the A9 didn't was higher resolution. And that wasn't worth $5k to me.

Also, the size of the camera matters a lot to me. I consider the A9 and the A7RIII a very good and handy size and the A7Cxxx an even better size for applications like travel. The A1 was too large for me, though useable. The A7RV got even bigger and heavier.

Sony should think a medium sized body for people who aren't going to shoot long lenses or very high frame rates but who don't want banding and motion distortion in their pictures.

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:14 AM

chiron
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

snapsy wrote:
Nikon Z8 is the closest. 1/270 electronic shutter, $4K, 45MP, best-for-Nikon AF, medium-sized body.

Yes, the Z8 is pretty close to what I am asking for from Sony, except smaller (like an A9 or A7III), and with Sony's autofocus and battery. The 45mpix is excellent for my purposes and the price is fine. I'd even go up a bit if it ticked all the above boxes.

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:26 AM

chiron
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

tschopp wrote:
Do we know if the stacked sensor actually costs more to make? Seems kind of like the idea that a higher MP sensor costs more to make, do we actually know this? Is there a lower yield in good sensors or does it take longer to manufacturer?

I could see all of this being artificial pricing to get different market segments.

Stacked sensors do cost more to make. Their advantages for both stills and video are enormous and they would be used in everything if the cost wasn't a factor. Of course, the cost factort can evolve over time.

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:27 AM

tonychen
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

If it's 4k, it's "too close" to the current A1 pricing. I saw B&S has used A1 at $4xxx from time to time.

But I got your point. Camera manufacturers put not so popular features and charge a higher premium. They do that all the time.

chiron wrote:
I didn't say it had to be under $3K! I wouldn't expect that. I'd buy it in a flash if it were $4K, like the Nikon Z8, but smaller and with Sony autofocus & battery.

I ended up by not loving my A1. I sold a super-mint copy to someone who will actually use its features. I wasn't using most of those features, so the only thing it was actually giving me that the A9 didn't was higher resolution. And that wasn't worth $5k to me.

Also, the size of the camera matters a lot to me. I consider the A9 and...Show more →

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:29 AM

chiron
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

GMPhotography wrote:
Hello and exactly my bitch. I sell 30 grand a year in images about 40 thousand of them ALL under LED
Lighting so without a stacked sensor and e shutter I have to depend on full mechanical shutter to get this done . So my bitch about it is my livelihood. So that’s where I’m coming from but no one gets that part of the issue with cameras that are coming out without full mechanical shutters.

I’m out of this as I’m on vacation but this hits my bank account. I’m doing fine with my A7RV but it’s work. There...Show more →

I totally get this, Guy. For you the mechanical shutter (or a very fast stacked sensor) is mandatory. For me, the size is more important than the mechanical shutter, but people have different needs.

Enjoy your vacation! No yelling at the grandchildren!!!

Be well.

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:31 AM

tonychen
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

I work in the semiconductor industry. Yes. It cost more to make a stack sensor. Stacked also means faster read out.
Stacking or other advanced packaging technologies are becoming more and more popular nowadays and the cost could comes down a bit. Your phone and your PC most likely have a "stacked" CPU inside.

image sensor and camera cost are highly related to the final shipping volume. Basically they pour a huge amount of money to design and prepare for manufacturing and then just makes copies. The more they ship, the lowest cost per unit. This approach also explains why each branch try to make less models as the volumes are much lower than several years ago. They also try to reuse the key parts, like the sensor and the image processor.

tschopp wrote:
Do we know if the stacked sensor actually costs more to make? Seems kind of like the idea that a higher MP sensor costs more to make, do we actually know this? Is there a lower yield in good sensors or does it take longer to manufacturer?

I could see all of this being artificial pricing to get different market segments.

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:39 AM

randomguy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sony: a stacked-sensor camera w/ hi-rez, moderate-size/price

Rumors are the Canon R5 II will have stacked sensors. I hope this is true because I think only pressure from the competition will make Sony put stacked sensors in cheaper cameras. If not we may have BSI sensors and 10FPS or less slideshow view during burst shooting in professional priced cameras in 2030.

Other than the A1 I am not happy with Sony at the moment, and even that is overpriced seeing how much cheaper the Z8 is. Probably gives a good idea what kind of profit margins they have on the A1.

Sep 07, 2023 at 10:42 AM

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