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The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

rji2goleez
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p.12 #1 · p.12 #1 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Geoff D F wrote:
When you say it is not SOOC, was it just an increase in saturation and curves adjustment to boost contrast?

For these shots, adjustments may include exposure, and curve adjustments. Perhaps some vibrance but little if any saturation.

Mar 07, 2024 at 07:27 AM

Desmolicious
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p.12 #2 · p.12 #2 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

rji2goleez wrote:
For these shots, adjustments may include exposure, and curve adjustments. Perhaps some vibrance but little if any saturation.

The thing is when film is scanned, there is no 'real' untampered look to it. Whoever is scanning it is using presets - whether they like it or not - that effects the look. So someone who says 'I didn't adjust anything, these scans are exactly as delivered' does not realize that the images already have been edited.
Even if you printed the image directly from negative to paper, the grade of paper, type of paper etc will effect how the print looks.

What matters, and really the only thing that matters, is if you are happy with how your final results look!

Mar 07, 2024 at 12:37 PM

OregonSun
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p.12 #3 · p.12 #3 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Desmolicious wrote:
The thing is when film is scanned, there is no 'real' untampered look to it. Whoever is scanning it is using presets - whether they like it or not - that effects the look. So someone who says 'I didn't adjust anything, these scans are exactly as delivered' does not realize that the images already have been edited.
Even if you printed the image directly from negative to paper, the grade of paper, type of paper etc will effect how the print looks.

What matters, and really the only thing that matters, is if you are happy with how your final results...Show more →

Yep, the only real SOOC is transparencies viewed with the naked eye, IMO.

Mar 07, 2024 at 12:51 PM

RoamingScott
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p.12 #4 · p.12 #4 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Desmolicious wrote:
The thing is when film is scanned, there is no 'real' untampered look to it. Whoever is scanning it is using presets - whether they like it or not - that effects the look. So someone who says 'I didn't adjust anything, these scans are exactly as delivered' does not realize that the images already have been edited.
Even if you printed the image directly from negative to paper, the grade of paper, type of paper etc will effect how the print looks.

What matters, and really the only thing that matters, is if you are happy with how your final results...Show more →

And then you get your stuff looking ~just~ right on your perfectly calibrated monitor, and share it with the world, only to have them look at it on their tiny phone with stupid auto-warmth settings cranked to the max.

Mar 07, 2024 at 12:54 PM

Desmolicious
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p.12 #5 · p.12 #5 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

OregonSun wrote:
Yep, the only real SOOC is transparencies viewed with the naked eye, IMO.

What is your light source when you view those transparencies?

(but yes, that is the closest you'd get)

Mar 07, 2024 at 01:21 PM

dvoss
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p.12 #6 · p.12 #6 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Desmolicious wrote:
I compared my AF Slim Zoom to my Nikon AF600/LiteTouch.
Samsung is noisier turning on and off. Nikon is noisier (and slower) taking a pic.

My conclusion? Both make p&s camera noise!

My Pentax Espio 24EW is quieter than both, but you still hear it…

Thanks for checking that out. I guess the noise is just part of the whole experience. Ironically, it probably helps blend into the crowd. "Oh, look at that crappy piece of noisy plastic the tourist is using" instead of "Why are you taking my picture with that fancy black metal professional-looking camera with the red dot - are you the authorities?"

Mar 07, 2024 at 02:45 PM

OregonSun
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p.12 #7 · p.12 #7 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Desmolicious wrote:
What is your light source when you view those transparencies?

(but yes, that is the closest you'd get)

And then there's the fact that individual perception varies, and colors don't even objectively exist outside of the human mind. How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

Mar 07, 2024 at 03:21 PM

Geoff D F
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p.12 #8 · p.12 #8 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Which then makes you wonder why we choose film for particular looks given one may edit it to look like something else anyway.

But I asked the question about what edits had been applied in the hope that it would be easier to get that look if there were minimal adjustments from the initial scan.

As an aside I have been doing my scanning recently with a Sony A7RIII and SmartConvert software. The software takes the RAW files and then does a conversion, to which you can fine tune WB, saturation, density and contrast. I'm sure it is doing its own interpretation, but it does seem to produce conversions that are very close to what I would expect based on the film used. And you don't have to tell it what the film was.

Mar 07, 2024 at 07:12 PM

OregonSun
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p.12 #9 · p.12 #9 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Geoff D F wrote:
Which then makes you wonder why we choose film for particular looks given one may edit it to look like something else anyway.

But I asked the question about what edits had been applied in the hope that it would be easier to get that look if there were minimal adjustments from the initial scan.

As an aside I have been doing my scanning recently with a Sony A7RIII and SmartConvert software. The software takes the RAW files and then does a conversion, to which you can fine tune WB, saturation, density and contrast. I'm sure it is doing its...Show more →

I can see the appeal of a simplified converter, although for me it would be more about saving time and reducing the amount of decisions I have to make. I can definitely get bogged down in all the options in NLP. I'll have to try out the demo version of SmartConvert.

Mar 07, 2024 at 10:41 PM

Geoff D F
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p.12 #10 · p.12 #10 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

OregonSun wrote:
I can see the appeal of a simplified converter, although for me it would be more about saving time and reducing the amount of decisions I have to make. I can definitely get bogged down in all the options in NLP. I'll have to try out the demo version of SmartConvert.

You can always do further edits in other programs, e.g. Lightroom. The beauty of SmartConvert is it does a great job IMO, while only having the essential adjustments. Full disclosure, I haven't tried NLP. I did try FilmLab but thought SmartConvert did a better job. If you are interested it is worth looking at Kyle McDougal's Youtube video on it.

Mar 07, 2024 at 11:06 PM

coralnut
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p.12 #11 · p.12 #11 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Huss makes a good point about camera presets. Unless you're using a "flat" profile then it's a certainty that your camera has programmed 'color science' settings that are deliberately manipulating colors.

My personal preference is to try to make a digitized image of a transparency look like the original transparency. There are a LOT of people who don't like that approach, as in the digital era almost everyone likes the look of digitally enhanced saturation and sharpness. This gives me some serious doubts about the accuracy of colors that we're seeing in hybrid film/digital photographs that are being misrepresented as film images.

The difference in the methods used for post processing digital scans makes disclosure of the scanning method particularly important, though nobody seems to care about that. Most people are more concerned with the subjective pleasantry of the final result than with the objective accuracy of the process used to create it.

Mar 07, 2024 at 11:37 PM

rji2goleez
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p.12 #12 · p.12 #12 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Desmolicious wrote:
The thing is when film is scanned, there is no 'real' untampered look to it. Whoever is scanning it is using presets - whether they like it or not - that effects the look. So someone who says 'I didn't adjust anything, these scans are exactly as delivered' does not realize that the images already have been edited.
Even if you printed the image directly from negative to paper, the grade of paper, type of paper etc will effect how the print looks.

What matters, and really the only thing that matters, is if you are happy with how your final results...Show more →

Very much agree! There is literally nothing today that is unmodified in some way. I certainly don't worry about it and only worry that I'm pleased with the end result.

Mar 08, 2024 at 10:03 AM

OregonSun
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p.12 #13 · p.12 #13 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

coralnut wrote:
Huss makes a good point about camera presets. Unless you're using a "flat" profile then it's a certainty that your camera has programmed 'color science' settings that are deliberately manipulating colors.

My personal preference is to try to make a digitized image of a transparency look like the original transparency. There are a LOT of people who don't like that approach, as in the digital era almost everyone likes the look of digitally enhanced saturation and sharpness. This gives me some serious doubts about the accuracy of colors that we're seeing in hybrid film/digital photographs that are being misrepresented as film...Show more →

I generally try to get close with transparencies, since there is actually something to compare with. However, I don't shoot reversal film very often due to cost and limited film options. If I really cared about accuracy from film, I wouldn't even bother with digital conversion and posting online. I've been thinking about joining a local darkroom and going that route for B&W at least.

Mar 08, 2024 at 11:24 AM

OregonSun
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p.12 #14 · p.12 #14 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

Geoff D F wrote:
You can always do further edits in other programs, e.g. Lightroom. The beauty of SmartConvert is it does a great job IMO, while only having the essential adjustments. Full disclosure, I haven't tried NLP. I did try FilmLab but thought SmartConvert did a better job. If you are interested it is worth looking at Kyle McDougal's Youtube video on it.

I gave SmartConvert a quick try last night and I do like the simplicity. The conversions were a lot flatter than what I'm used to getting from NLP (unless you use the Linear or Linear Flat tone profiles). Obviously the idea is to do most of the adjustments in another app. Unfortunately, the demo version doesn't allow any export, so I don't have any way to do an end to end comparison of my existing workflow with a new one using SmartConvert. I'm not inclined to pay 99 euros without being able to do that. I also didn't like the low res preview that is displayed when adjusting the conversion settings, although I could probably get used to that.

Giving something else a try did illustrate to me just how powerful NLP is though, especially the tone profile presets, which will often get me most of the way to a satisfactory output. Not sure it would actually save me any time to try and reproduce those in another editor after conversion.

Mar 08, 2024 at 11:53 AM

ottokbre
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p.12 #15 · p.12 #15 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

And then you get your stuff looking ~just~ right on your perfectly calibrated monitor, and share it with the world, only to have them look at it on their tiny phone with stupid auto-warmth settings cranked to the max.

I'm out here just applying "True Tone" and "Night Shift" as a preset from the get go.

Mar 08, 2024 at 12:23 PM

Desmolicious
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p.12 #16 · p.12 #16 · The pitfalls of the high end film P&S

I'm out here just applying "True Tone" and "Night Shift" as a preset from the get go.

Sounds like song titles performed by The Commodores.

Frak I'm old.

https://youtu.be/FrkEDe6Ljqs?si=oGRdrC1jb2HwlI2f

Mar 08, 2024 at 12:56 PM

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