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Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread

  
 
1bwana1
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p.12 #1 · p.12 #1 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


George DeCamp wrote:
Thank you sir, your comments are much appreciated! I've tried to post a little of each to show what the lens has to offer. If people like it fine, if not that's ok too!


Spoken like a man confident in his work. Well deserved I say.



Sep 18, 2023 at 05:45 PM
George DeCamp
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p.12 #2 · p.12 #2 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


1bwana1 wrote:
Spoken like a man confident in his work. Well deserved I say.


Thank you again!



Sep 18, 2023 at 06:12 PM
rwingsfan
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p.12 #3 · p.12 #3 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


I'm liking it so far. This is at 600mm f6.3 shutter 2500 from about 30 ft. Cropped of course.






Edited on Sep 19, 2023 at 10:46 AM · View previous versions



Sep 18, 2023 at 07:04 PM
duncang
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p.12 #4 · p.12 #4 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


CanadaMark wrote:
Many ~100% or heavy crops have already been posted in this thread and they are very sharp, despite the fact that no software even has profile support for the lens yet (meaning, it will only improve). There are at least two links in this thread to highly detailed controlled testing, both with 200% crops that again show the same thing, as well as comparisons to the competition and Nikon's own telephoto lineup. Those tests reveal that the 180-600 holds up well to Nikon's highly regarded 100-400S and 400/4.5S, all triple corroborated by the controlled testing done by Ricci, Steve Perry,
...Show more

Steve Perry - he couldn't tell the difference between the Sony 200-600 and the 800pf - he spends quite some time in his video scratching his head over his inability to tell the difference between them. By inference if he thinks the 180-600 is sharper than the Sony it must also be sharper than the 800PF.

A reputable tester - yep sure.

CORRECTION:

Apologies to Steve Perry - it was not him who made that claim but this guy linked earlier in the thread.





Edited on Sep 19, 2023 at 03:33 PM · View previous versions



Sep 19, 2023 at 08:12 AM
Kasper6188
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p.12 #5 · p.12 #5 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


duncang wrote:
Steve Perry - he couldn't tell the difference between the Sony 200-600 and the 800pf - he spends quite some time in his video scratching his head over his inability to tell the difference between them. By inference if he thinks the 180-600 is sharper than the Sony it must also be sharper than the 800PF.

A reputable tester - yep sure.



But does it even really matter though?




Sep 19, 2023 at 08:36 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.12 #6 · p.12 #6 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


duncang wrote:
Steve Perry - he couldn't tell the difference between the Sony 200-600 and the 800pf - he spends quite some time in his video scratching his head over his inability to tell the difference between them. By inference if he thinks the 180-600 is sharper than the Sony it must also be sharper than the 800PF.

A reputable tester - yep sure.



Your response says everything. Many of us have been following him for a long time and respect his perspective and see his evaluations as about as unbiased as it gets. He has both Sony and Nikon systems and uses both extensively. That you dismiss his so easily says a lot about you, and I don't think you have the details right either.



Sep 19, 2023 at 09:22 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.12 #7 · p.12 #7 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


Perry doesn't really claim that the 180-600 or 200-600 is sharper than the other; there are subtle differences in areas of the frame depending on focal length and side but the overall conclusion isn't supporting one's superiority over the other at least where the test charts are concerned. "Neck and neck" is what he said several times.

He does quite clearly note that the 800 PF is sharper than the 180-600 with 1.4X TC outside of the center.

However, at another distance things may again be different. Comparing two zoom lenses makes it difficult to call one over the other because there are different apertures, distances, focal lengths, parts of the frame that need to be evaluated and the results between the two can go in different ways at different settings. This is also true of lens samples within the same brand and model.

IMO Perry has a good understanding of what he is doing.

duncang wrote:
Steve Perry - he couldn't tell the difference between the Sony 200-600 and the 800pf - he spends quite some time in his video scratching his head over his inability to tell the difference between them. By inference if he thinks the 180-600 is sharper than the Sony it must also be sharper than the 800PF.

A reputable tester - yep sure.





Sep 19, 2023 at 09:32 AM
1bwana1
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p.12 #8 · p.12 #8 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


In my experience Steve Perry is about as unbiased, and real World experienced as we get. I have found that his evaluation matches well with what I get when I use a peice of equipment that he has used and reported on.

I have found him to be honest and sincere in person and in his on line presentations.

He is likely a better photography coach, wildlife photographer, workshop leader, content creator, and author, than he is a chart pixel peeper. But I value the latter the least when choosing equipment. I have never even shot a chart. Not one of my areas of interests.

If you don't respect his opinion I really don't know where to send you for a better more trustworthy one.

If it is a direct comparison of the Nikon 180-200 and the Sony 200-600 that you are focused on, then what I got out of his video is that they are at parity when used in the field. Copy variation within the models is probably as great as any differences in IQ. The biggest difference being that focus breathing favors the Nikon, and under the tests that he performed focus speed strongly favors the Sony.

I have been enjoying the Sony 200-600 on my original A9, and now my A1 for years. I see it as great thing that now my Nikon Z shooting friends can enjoy a similar level of convenience, enjoyment, and results. Why sweat the little things...



Sep 19, 2023 at 10:19 AM
CanadaMark
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p.12 #9 · p.12 #9 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


duncang wrote:
Steve Perry - he couldn't tell the difference between the Sony 200-600 and the 800pf - he spends quite some time in his video scratching his head over his inability to tell the difference between them. By inference if he thinks the 180-600 is sharper than the Sony it must also be sharper than the 800PF.

A reputable tester - yep sure.



It's no secret that there is little difference in modern lens performance in the very center, even if you're comparing to the exotics. The difference is they do it at a much larger aperture and hold into the sharpness better towards the edges. I don't know what other test you're referencing - the only video I could find was where he couldn't tell any material difference between the 800PF and Sony 600/4 GM.

Feel free to show us a all a better test than what he or the other reviewers have put together if you are unhappy that his results didn't validate your brand preferences.

His results also are aligned with the controlled testing done by Ricci and Gordon @ Cameralabs, but I don't imagine you think they are reputable either.


Edited on Sep 19, 2023 at 02:39 PM · View previous versions



Sep 19, 2023 at 02:34 PM
RoamingScott
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p.12 #10 · p.12 #10 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


This is an image thread, not a measurbating discussion thread, there is already one (if not more) of those for this lens.


Sep 19, 2023 at 02:35 PM
 


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bs kite
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p.12 #11 · p.12 #11 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


Suggestion: Why not either hide Duncang or simply do not respond. Obviously he has no intention of saying anything plausible. He just wants to have fun derailing the thread.

I know you guys already know this. Why not just ignore him?



Edited on Sep 19, 2023 at 03:10 PM · View previous versions



Sep 19, 2023 at 02:47 PM
SCoombs
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p.12 #12 · p.12 #12 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


CanadaMark wrote:
Many ~100% or heavy crops have already been posted in this thread and they are very sharp, despite the fact that no software even has profile support for the lens yet (meaning, it will only improve). There are at least two links in this thread to highly detailed controlled testing, both with 200% crops that again show the same thing, as well as comparisons to the competition and Nikon's own telephoto lineup. Those tests reveal that the 180-600 holds up well to Nikon's highly regarded 100-400S and 400/4.5S, all triple corroborated by the controlled testing done by Ricci, Steve Perry,
...Show more

Truthfully, I feel a little burned by my current lens - though not so much in the sharpness or IQ - and am worried about getting burned again in making an investment in a lens that doesn't do what I need it to and which financially speaking I won't be able to replace or move on from for years.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that people have very different standards for sharpness. Even in this thread we've seen some people call an image sharp and others (several people) call it very soft, and I've seen that a lot in discussions. Especially on dpreview where a lot of the wildlife photos are of a lower standard than here or other places, people will post what is even viewed at a small size clearly out of focus or very motion blurred and others will chime in on how sharp it is.

I'm always cognizant of this when considering reviews and samples from users, especially because the dynamic you mention of what people "want" can play a huge role: those who have anxiously anticipated something and ordered it have a large incentive to like something no matter what. I do put more faith in people like Steve Perry to give reliable feedback, but ultimately I trust my eyes more than anything and the bottom line is that for the first few weeks here I've not seen many images I'd consider to portray the lens in a good light, and many of those that do have been files locked into a small viewing size, which to me doesn't mean a whole lot since many things will look good at a small size. There was also at least some measure of a trend of end-users reporting the lens to be a bit soft at 6.3 as the first copies got into people's hands. Taken altogether, I have certainly been skeptical. Also, so far we have Steve Perry and some other notables looking at that charts, which don't mean much to me. Lots of lenses that I don't think produce great photos of real things make great shots of test charts. I want to see photos Perry and others produce with the lens.

I think some more convincing images have come out over time. Last night we saw a review from PhotographyLife and that easily has the best collection of photos from this lens I've seen anywhere. They were good enough to convince me to place an order. Knowing I'll be waiting a bit made it easier since there's still time to change my mind if PhotographyLife proves to be an outlier, but of course as more copies get into more people's hands and we get more samples it could very well alleviate my concerns.

It also makes a huge difference that I'm looking to replace a 200-500, so the question of, "is this just going to be the same lens with the same problems but in - mount?" weighs heavily. The bottom line is that I have room for one lens in my budget so it had better be good. For several years I've been fighting my lens to get good results and I don't want that experience again.



Sep 19, 2023 at 02:57 PM
Chris Dees
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p.12 #13 · p.12 #13 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


SCoombs wrote:
Truthfully, I feel a little burned by my current lens - though not so much in the sharpness or IQ - and am worried about getting burned again in making an investment in a lens that doesn't do what I need it to and which financially speaking I won't be able to replace or move on from for years.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that people have very different standards for sharpness. Even in this thread we've seen some people call an image sharp and others (several people) call it very soft, and I've seen that a
...Show more

So rent one and see for yourself if you don't trust others or if they don't do the test you're after.



Sep 19, 2023 at 03:19 PM
CanadaMark
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p.12 #14 · p.12 #14 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


bs kite wrote:
Suggestion: Why not either hide Duncang or simply do not respond. Obviously he has no intention of saying anything plausible. He just wants to have fun derailing the thread.

I know you guys already know this. Why not just ignore him?



I only respond to help curb the spread of misinformation, which I feel still has some value if people who aren't familiar with the motives of various members end up reading this site and take it as gospel. For example, saying Steve Perry is not reputable I feel deserves a reply, especially when not accompanied with a suggestion for a better alternative. We all know that isn't true, but others reading or who only visit these forums occasionally may not. Saying he's unreliable when his results match every other controlled/professional test I have seen including my own (more limited) testing, clearly there is some other agenda there and I would bet my entire lens collection if Steve had concluded that a different brand came out on top, his reputation would not have been questioned .

Case in point - it wasn't even Steve who made the comments in question, it was a cherry picked review from someone I have never heard of (others may have) whose results appear to be an outlier among the other testing that has been done. No disrespect to that YouTuber of course, it looks like he put a lot of effort into that comparison.



Sep 19, 2023 at 03:48 PM
SCoombs
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p.12 #15 · p.12 #15 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


CanadaMark wrote:
I get what you're trying to say, but in my mind what it doesn't address is how so many people are not having issues, which based on all the fantastic images posted here and elsewhere, seems to be the majority of users. The other thing it doesn't address is why some people are seemingly having the exact same issues with the highest tiers of equipment featuring the fastest available AF motors. If one person is having issues and the other is not, the burden of proof would be on the person who is having the issue because the person not
...Show more

Well, I don't think it has to be too complicated a question why some people may see different performance. Sample variation does exist, and I think there are ways we can conceive of that it could affect things like AF performance as well as optical quality. I tend to trust people's reports, especially when we can see from their work that they do have some sense of what they're doing. If some people say their 200-500 can't track well, I believe them - in particular when the experience echos my own.

Remember that I've had much more consistent results from the Sigma Sports, a lens that doesn't do everything better. It does mkst things worse, in fact: handling and stabilization for sure, IQ in the view of many. Yet it definitely does AF better and the way I was able to photograph BIF with it vs. my Nikon spoke for itself.

You mention two of my comments. First, you asked about the sorts of birds I was talking about. I've had the most experience with heron and seagulls - not much else typically easy to find in my area. I agree with you that these should be easy for an AF if they're gliding across the frame- and that's part of why it's been so frustrating. I can pan with the bird well. I can keep it in the center of the frame. With my DSLR I could keep the group area on it. With my Z8 the subject tracking stays solid green on the bird as I follow it across the water, but then the focus is poor, almost lagging. With the Sigma it was much harder to pan, but I did and the way the green box stayed on the bird was just more smooth, almost as if the EVF refresh rate were higher, though it wasn't. The shots were in focus. I can put an old inexpensive DX AF-P tele on there and like the Sigma it just feels smoother and I get more in focus.

You also mentioned my comments about skill regarding things like eye tracking. I just disagree that there's any question of skill involved with putting a camera on a tripod and holding the AF on button while someone walks around in the frame. In that case the camera/lens AF is either staying on subject or it's not.

Here's a brief story in relation to both those points. In the past month I got a 70-180, my first native Z lens. It's AF seems to be described by most as okay but not great. I was immediately impressed with how much stickier it felt than the 200-500. I started taking it on walks with the family in the evenings. When my kids wanted me to run around, my wife would hold it. She's never really used my camera's but does understand photography basics. One night she tried to photograph the kids and got a bunch of almost entirely out of focus shots. She asked why and I had to teach her back button focus. The next evening she took it again in very dark conditions - I had auto ISOs of 16000 - and got almost entirely perfectly focused shots, right on the eye, of me and the kids running around very quickly past sunset. She held the camera out in front of her and looked at the LCD like a cell phone with both hands on the body, the lens waving around. She also commented that that lens, praised for its weight, was very heavy This is not a VR lens and her shutter speed was high enough in the near dark that there's not many examples of motion blur.

I've not gotten even half that hit rate in the mid-day sun photographing the kids at 200mm on the 200-500. It just won't stay on their eyes firmly enough, and when it does there are a lot of out of focus shots. Here's someone with almost no knowledge of the system, very poor technique, who isn't comfortable with/used to even a lightweight setup photographing difficult, erratic subjects in awful light on a lens with no VR and the lens just works and nails almost every shot.

Don't misunderstand: my wife has a greater artistic aptitude than I and would easily become a master if she tried, but clearly she isn't right now. I just don't think there's a huge question of experience or technique when it comes to basic things like getting in focus shots of eyes on a camera that automatically focuses on eyes. Likewise, when the camera is automatically focusing on a slow flying bird, to a large degree the photographer has to trust the camera to get the focus. There are things you can do to give it a better chance or to mess it up, or to take matters into your own hands when it's having a hard time, but ultimately when a bunch of lenses give you good results and one doesn't, it is what it is.




Sep 19, 2023 at 04:04 PM
bs kite
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p.12 #16 · p.12 #16 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


CanadaMark wrote:
I only respond to help curb the spread of misinformation, which I feel still has some value if people who aren't familiar with the motives of various members end up reading this site and take it as gospel. For example, saying Steve Perry is not reputable I feel deserves a reply, especially when not accompanied with a suggestion for a better alternative. We all know that isn't true, but others reading or who only visit these forums occasionally may not. Saying he's unreliable when his results match every other controlled/professional test I have seen including my own (more limited) testing,
...Show more

I always agree with your points Mark. And I also always agree with Steve Spencer. And that goes for 1bwana1 too. And the responses that you three give are *always* polite and intelligent.......always.

My opinion on this: Duncang *already knows* that Steve Perry has an impeccable reputation. Duncang knows that what Duncang is saying is simply not true. But he would rather stir the pot.... play games. Why not? This is the internet where people dare say rude things and they get away with it.












Sep 19, 2023 at 04:35 PM
bs kite
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p.12 #17 · p.12 #17 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


As you guys agree, this is an exciting lens. The only question I have about it (oops) is weight. My 2-5 is just too heavy and the 180-600 is only 1/2 pound lighter.

My questions are only to those who own and shoot this lens. Does the internal zoom make it seem even lighter? How do you feel about the weight? Thanks

There, I too am guilty of keeping the comments/questions going

Robert



Sep 19, 2023 at 04:51 PM
1bwana1
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p.12 #18 · p.12 #18 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


SCoombs wrote:
Well, I don't think it has to be too complicated a question why some people may see different performance. Sample variation does exist, and I think there are ways we can conceive of that it could affect things like AF performance as well as optical quality. I tend to trust people's reports, especially when we can see from their work that they do have some sense of what they're doing. If some people say their 200-500 can't track well, I believe them - in particular when the experience echos my own.

Remember that I've had much more consistent results from the
...Show more



I understand what you are saying. But it has been my experience that different systems respond at different levels and in different ways. Without trying to pass judgement on which of any system is superior I will make this observation.

The way you are looking at expecting the camera system to just follow the eyes/subject around is more aligned with the way the Sony systems tend to work. You can get an amazing hit rate with pretty much any lens and without much input from the user. Sony seems to have designed some AF modes to optimize this type of experience. You can absolutely achieve similar hit rates and IQ results with the Nikon Z system. But it generally takes a bit more management by the user. This extends to different lenses (especially when including not native Z lenses), different subjects, and different subjects.

Keep in mind, that I am speaking in very broad and imprecise terms. These are just my observations from using both systems myself, and interacting with my friends who shoot either or both systems.



Sep 19, 2023 at 05:08 PM
SCoombs
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p.12 #19 · p.12 #19 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


1bwana1 wrote:
I understand what you are saying. But it has been my experience that different systems respond at different levels and in different was. Without trying to pass judgement on which of any system is superior I will make this observation.

The way you are looking at expecting the camera system to just follow the eyes/subject around is more aligned with the way the Sony systems tend to work. You can get an amazing hit rate with pretty much any lens and without much input from the user. You can achieve similar hit rates and IQ results with the Nikon Z system
...Show more

Let me clarify: I don't think I expect the system to just follow eyes around always. In fact, I wouldn't want it to. When I got the Z8 I was initially nervous it would be too much on autopilot all the time. I want to have room to influence and control things, and I would frankly find it boring if the camera did everything!

What I do expect is that a mode or feature designed to focus on and track eyes will actually do so, and to be extra clear, it's pretty obvious that this is what Nikon intends it to do and what Nikon has successfully built it to actually do since the 70-180 and other Z lenses do reliably do this. I'm not objecting or complaining that my 200-500 doesn't do what Sony systems do: I'm objecting that it doesn't do whatbm other Nikon lenses seem to reliably do and what users in this very thread have said they should do.





Sep 19, 2023 at 05:17 PM
CanadaMark
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p.12 #20 · p.12 #20 · Official Nikon Z 180-600mm f5.6-6.3 VR Image Thread


bs kite wrote:
As you guys agree, this is an exciting lens. The only question I have about it (oops) is weight. My 2-5 is just too heavy and the 180-600 is only 1/2 pound lighter.

My questions are only to those who own and shoot this lens. Does the internal zoom make it seem even lighter? How do you feel about the weight? Thanks

There, I too am guilty of keeping the comments/questions going

Robert


The handling is a night & day improvement over the 200-500 which was front heavy and was very difficult to zoom quickly. It's balanced a lot better which doesn't make it any lighter than the scale says, but feels better as a package in my opinion.

My Z9 is already so heavy I can't tell a huge difference between this lens and a 200-500 weight-wise when attached to the camera, and I also often shoot from a monopod so the weight differences don't matter as much to me as they might someone else. You can drop another ~185g if you shoot handheld and know you won't be needing the lens collar, putting it within ~450g of your 500PF.

The AF is snappy, silent and accurate, and you can move through the entire zoom range just by rolling your fingers which generally makes for a much more pleasant shooting experience compared to the 200-500.

If the 200-500 is too heavy for your liking, the 180-600 might be too, but it's easier to use for sure. Your 500PF is shorter and lighter, so if you don't need the ability to zoom, I suspect you will still prefer it.



Sep 19, 2023 at 05:24 PM
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