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Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?
  
 
tomasr
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


I have 5Ds, R6 and a collection of fairly premium EF mount lenses.

I find 5Ds is a camera that really takes a great deal of effort and absolutely best glass to resolve close to its theoretical capabilities. We are mostly talking Sigma ART primes, always on tripod with timer. You can print that at A0 and I guess larger. Any slight user error and it quickly drops to or below 20MP-equivalent resolution.
R6 - it seems to take anything you throw on it and deliver pixel perfect files. Maybe not quite anything, but it seems so effortless. 20Mp helps, but doesn't when you print at A1!
So this Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II lens just works on R6, any setting, any subject fast or static. The brick wall test looks a little better than f/4 IS mk1 mainly in out the periphery. Well f/4 is better at 70mm but that is a different story.

On the other hand I get mostly awful results with that lens and 5Ds. Awful as in awful focus, awful corners, awful consistency awful everything. I've thrown 135mm ART on it and it looks amazing right of the bat. Same with 50/1.4 ART, 35/1.4, 400/5.6, etc. Even f/4 IS looks considerably better in the centre and mid-frame and falls off a little towards the edges (this was completely reversed on R6). I am not good manually focusing a lens with very sensitive ring and a low res LCD screen. I am also not very successful with focus adjustment because it may be different for close vs distant objects and is more like a hit and miss anyway.

R5 would hopefully focus as well as R6. The more important question is how well they can resolve the lens starting with the centre. Will it get close to 135ART at f/5.6? Then there is the AA filter question and we can throw 5DsR into the hat. Would it make a somewhat marginal lens look so much better than old-style AA filter in 5Ds does? Would that also make 16-35mm f/2.8 III sharper? This lens is again just fine on R6. Mostly fine to be more accurate. How would this compare with R5? Or Z9 via adapter. I rather strongly consider that option too considering it is much better body. Not today but eventually. Their prices keep dropping like flies so I can wait a little more. And hence I do not consider RF lenses an option at all, let alone extortionate pricing and all-plastic materials. I will sooner buy the Z 70-200 vs RF one, but ideally just keep and adapt most of my EF, ART glass. I absolutely don't care about the size or weight, only durability and sharpness.

Essentially I would be most grateful to see some well-focused landscape style RAW samples at f/ 2.8 to 5.6 with R5, maybe 5DsR. Thank you.
Aug 23, 2023 at 12:41 PM
jedibrain
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


I would think the R5 with its IBIS alone would be a big help to get maximum sharpness out of your Ef mkII 70-200. 5DS has that big mirror moving and the mechanical shutter. R5 can operate in ES mode so no moving parts when the picture is taken.

Sounds like you may have some issue requring AFMA with that lens on your 5DS. If its bad across the frame on that body, but good on another one then its more than the resolving power of the lens. Its been shown that even the mkII lenses produce a higher resolution image than required for a 50mp sensor. So the sensor alone should not account for that much of an issue, though it will magnify any movement, etc.

If its possible where you live to rent an R5, go for it. That would be the acid test. And a fun weekend of messing around.

-Brian
Aug 24, 2023 at 02:18 PM
tomasr
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


I would have thought somebody must have tried this combination outside of sports and portraits by now.

It is helpful to know if a good R5 with a good 70-200mm f/2.8 II will resolve properly, or not. Let's say a sharp A0 print without some fancy extra sharpening is my definition of "properly".

And secondly it is interesting to know if there is a difference in sharpness between R5 and 5DsR, and if that is significant over 5Ds.

My 5Ds as stated is focusing pretty badly with that lens. I don't know why and I am not spending further time with adjusting since it is literally all over the place without any clear pattern.
Many are still bashing third party glass, but I find the recent ones focus far better and usually resolve than Canon L's. This looks like the worst offender.


Aug 24, 2023 at 02:33 PM
artsupreme
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


tomasr wrote:
I would have thought somebody must have tried this combination outside of sports and portraits by now.

It is helpful to know if a good R5 with a good 70-200mm f/2.8 II will resolve properly, or not. Let's say a sharp A0 print without some fancy extra sharpening is my definition of "properly".

And secondly it is interesting to know if there is a difference in sharpness between R5 and 5DsR, and if that is significant over 5Ds.

My 5Ds as stated is focusing pretty badly with that lens. I don't know why and I am not spending further time with adjusting since...Show more →

I just sent you some samples, but they are mostly at f/2.8 and might not be ideal because they are not flat surfaces. But better than nothing.
Aug 24, 2023 at 03:14 PM
tomasr
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


artsupreme wrote:
I just sent you some samples, but they are mostly at f/2.8 and might not be ideal because they are not flat surfaces. But better than nothing.

Thanks. I think your decision was definitely the right one.

Let's see some more variation please.
Aug 24, 2023 at 03:23 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


tomasr wrote:
I have 5Ds, R6 and a collection of fairly premium EF mount lenses.

I find 5Ds is a camera that really takes a great deal of effort and absolutely best glass to resolve close to its theoretical capabilities. We are mostly talking Sigma ART primes, always on tripod with timer. You can print that at A0 and I guess larger. Any slight user error and it quickly drops to or below 20MP-equivalent resolution.
R6 - it seems to take anything you throw on it and deliver pixel perfect files. Maybe not quite anything, but it seems so effortless. 20Mp helps, but...Show more →

If you want fine details and are stuck with Canon, the 5DsR is still the one on the best lenses. The R5 is close and might produce better results with the adapted EF lens if your EF body is not well calibrated for AF. Assuming that the RF 70-200/2.8 is better than the EF 70-200/2.8 II/III, the R5 and RF 70-200/2.8 combo may be better in some ways but I dont; have it to compare. I have a 5DsR and 70-200/2.8 IS II, but use the R5 and RF 70-200/4 instead since I don't need the high borkah.
If you really want high resolution and fine detail, then get a Sony 61MP body. It's head and shoulders above any Canon RF or Nikon Z body for single frames, but you can more than compensate with the panning/stitching.

EBH
Aug 24, 2023 at 06:45 PM
tomasr
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


EB-1 wrote:
If you want fine details and are stuck with Canon, the 5DsR is still the one on the best lenses. The R5 is close and might produce better results with the adapted EF lens if your EF body is not well calibrated for AF. Assuming that the RF 70-200/2.8 is better than the EF 70-200/2.8 II/III, the R5 and RF 70-200/2.8 combo may be better in some ways but I dont; have it to compare. I have a 5DsR and 70-200/2.8 IS II, but use the R5 and RF 70-200/4 instead since I don't need the high borkah.
If you...Show more →

Right. So is the pecking order basically 5DsR > R5 = 5Ds or 5DsR > R5 > 5Ds or 5DsR > 5Ds > R5 for raw sharpness? I don't fully understand if this difference is visibly more pronounced only in marginal areas like the corners or equally across the frame regardless of the lens performance.
Obviously DR and AF would totally flip the order again towards R5. And presumably there is R5 mkII somewhere not long away from being announced, perhaps without AA and overheating issues, maybe even back to 5D size to match Z8. That's my wishlist anyway.
I would be interested to see what you get with 5DsR and your mkII lens. Likewise, if you have any longer sigma ART primes it would be another like for like comparison.

I find that ART primes on 5Ds hit the focus pretty well. Not R6 well, but better than f/2.8 L glass for sure. It feels like Canon lens tries to lock focus too quickly and doesn't get there all the way.

I don't think I will ever get the mk1 RF 70-200mm or any other mk1 RF lens. I just don't like the lens design language and don't like the price one tiny bit. I always wanted this big fat white (well it is grey) EF lens. So there is that. By default I carry mk1 EF F/4 IS due to convenience. It's fine, particularly the wide end. But corners are not 100% if shooting high res landscapes towards the long end. And there is no f/2.8 if you need it due to low light. Yet somehow it feels like it leaves f/2.8 II far far behind on that body on most takes. That's at f/5.6. I really expected the reverse based on R6 images.

mkIII is nearly identical to mkII. So the only realistic alternative for EF system is Tamron G2 lens. They now go for next to nothing on ebay and reviews are encouraging. Well except 150-200mm "zooming back" significantly at close focus. It is hard to find direct comparison or RAW samples and one person's 'tack sharp' is another's 'unusably soft'. That option will be my last resort option.

I think the main benefit of getting Sony body is access to some amazing new primes from Sigma and Sony. The ergonomics of the bodies leave me wanting really a lot. R6 is already some 3cm too small so A7 will be not be very nice to use at all when away from tripod. Spec wise and ignoring the price A1 would be my choice. It has full E-shutter, decent video spec, better EVF and you don't have to go as crazy about lens MTF and diffraction. F7.1 limit is bad enough at 50MP. F5.6 would be insane to work with shooting landscapes. Seriously 8K is the ceiling for a while to come on 35mm systems until they figure out some auto stacking and lens flaw correction fancy processing.
I am actually thinking about Nikon Z9 or Z8. That's pretty much A1 but in respectable body. It can adapt both EF and E glass with 3rd party adapters. I have no idea if they work well enough. And there are some reasonable optical design Z zooms too. 70-200 and 14-24mm f/2.8 would be the two I might consider at some point after doing further extensive research if I give up on EF ones. Their 24-70/2.8 may be better than anything Canon ever made but I'm not convinced it is free from the usual field curvature or QC issues leading to very smeary corners at some or all settings.


Aug 24, 2023 at 10:50 PM
 


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EB-1
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


tomasr wrote:
Right. So is the pecking order basically 5DsR > R5 = 5Ds or 5DsR > R5 > 5Ds or 5DsR > 5Ds > R5 for raw sharpness? I don't fully understand if this difference is visibly more pronounced only in marginal areas like the corners or equally across the frame regardless of the lens performance.
Obviously DR and AF would totally flip the order again towards R5. And presumably there is R5 mkII somewhere not long away from being announced, perhaps without AA and overheating issues, maybe even back to 5D size to match Z8. That's my wishlist anyway.
I would be...Show more →

One of the critical advantages of RF is that bracketing focus is automatic and fast. Much (but of course not all) of the supposed softness in the corners of some lenses is mitigated with focus bracketing and stacking. I have used the 70-200/4 IS for a longer time than any other 70-200 (11-12 years) and found that its weaknesses became significant in the transition from 1Ds III (21MP) to 5DsR (50MP). I then got the 70-200/2.8 IS II at some point and just gave up hauling it around with everything else, probably due to the 24TSE II or other additions for landscapes. Later I got the 70-200/4 IS II, but it was only a little better than the original f/4 IS and bulkier/heavier. I struggled with the RF 70-200/4 IS for a while due to the abhorrent ergonomics, but have found a workable solution for panning on the tripod. 500-800MP images of most static subjects are feasible and overall IQ is higher than any of the Canon EF lenses I was using. Maybe the f/2.8 IS II/II is better at the center, but not that it's worth it on landscapes where edges are usually the issue.

Nikons are great, but the advantages are mainly with the big teles. I'm losing hope that they will have a high-res FX sensor before Canon.

EBH
Aug 24, 2023 at 11:58 PM
Alan Kefauver
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


I know this thread is about the lenses, but
R5 OOC the .CR3 is usually 8192x5164
and
https://www.papersizes.org/a-sizes-in-pixels.htm
so SOOC would be A2 at 300ppi and A0 at 150ppi I think

My R5 with the RF 70-200 f/2.8 handles this fine. I never tried it with the EF+Adapter as I traded in all the EFs when I went R5.
Aug 25, 2023 at 08:37 AM
tomasr
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


EB-1 wrote:
One of the critical advantages of RF is that bracketing focus is automatic and fast. Much (but of course not all) of the supposed softness in the corners of some lenses is mitigated with focus bracketing and stacking. I have used the 70-200/4 IS for a longer time than any other 70-200 (11-12 years) and found that its weaknesses became significant in the transition from 1Ds III (21MP) to 5DsR (50MP). I then got the 70-200/2.8 IS II at some point and just gave up hauling it around with everything else, probably due to the 24TSE II or other additions...Show more →

I could see the appeal of shooting multiple row panos with 135ART or 200mm f/2.8 II or even 400mm prime with a dedicated panoramic head for very special images, probably very large print commissions. It clearly rules out anything moving like water, or fast changing conditions such as wind and clouds or sunset. If you need to add focus stacking it quickly becomes very complex job requiring assembly than takes hours in Photoshop. I never found Auto Blend feature to give acceptable results. It cuts and joins randomly where it pleases. And that's before you potentially get overlapping close and far objects. If f/16 frame doesn't get you there I can't imagine what may. Anyway that's going a little off-topic here.

So to clarify do you find RF f/4 so much sharper than all the others? A major improvement (over EF mk1) is better flare resistance and 9-bladed aperture for proper sunstars. Obviously I can get that also in EF f/4 mkII and Tamron G2 but if you say sharpness is no better then there is not much point.
I'm not getting the RF because of the reasons mentioned above including by yourself, and also that it would be fully incompatible with my EF cameras like 5Ds and any other brand.
Aug 25, 2023 at 08:40 AM
artsupreme
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


Having owned all these lenses you are not going to get any sharper than the 70-200II versions of f/2.8 and f/4 in the newer RF versions when stopping down. What you will gain is a size and weight advantage, but not much if any in image quality. RF f/4 version is slightly sharper in the corners wide open, but you don't shoot wide open so that very slight difference is irrelevant. When stopped down the EFII versions are just as sharp as the RF versions. The EFII f/4 is a better portrait lens than the RF f/4 version due to more magnification at shorter FL's and better bokeh. But again, this is irrelevant to you as a landscape shooter.

It sounds like you don't want the light weight/smaller version of the RF lenses, so that leaves you with the EF choices. I'm not sure why you would even be looking at an EFII 2.8 version unless you shoot it wide open? That would leave the EF II f/4 version as your best choice for landscape. I still own it and it's a great lens if you don't care about using it having slightly less eye AF performance compared to the RF versions. If you can afford it, I would not worry about the build quality of the RF versions. As a landscape shooter, the RF/4 would be my first choice due to size and weight. If you are totally against it, the EFII f/4 is the only other option I would look at.
Aug 25, 2023 at 11:35 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


Ultimately you start splitting hairs and copy to copy variation may result in differences in lens rankings. My RF f/4 is better than the f/4 IS and f/4 IS II at f/5.6-8.
At some point EF is a dead end, especially when Canon ramps up the resolution past the 8K video standard. I'm pretty confident that the S*ny a7rIV or a7rV with the new 70-200/4 will outperform any of the Canons by f/5.6 or so due to the sensor.

EBH
Aug 25, 2023 at 01:54 PM
tomasr
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


EB-1 wrote:
Ultimately you start splitting hairs and copy to copy variation may result in differences in lens rankings. My RF f/4 is better than the f/4 IS and f/4 IS II at f/5.6-8.
At some point EF is a dead end, especially when Canon ramps up the resolution past the 8K video standard. I'm pretty confident that the S*ny a7rIV or a7rV with the new 70-200/4 will outperform any of the Canons by f/5.6 or so due to the sensor.

EBH

Did you find that EF f/4 mk II resolved as well as mk1 under 100mm? I fear they may be strongly weighted towards the long end and hence more compromised at the wide end.

I think I may have a clue why my 2.8 II is falling behind. The mount end seems to have ever so slight play in it. It is not definitive but if it is angled even slightly the whole hell would open up. Other lenses seem rock solid throughout so maybe a quick and cheap DIY fix? I'm not sending off to Canon, they never managed to calibrate any lens for me before.
Aug 30, 2023 at 03:33 PM
tomasr
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II samples on R5 vs 5Ds?


Oddly enough I ended up getting a copy of f/4 II IS.

In short, long end - great; wide end - absolutely unusable even on R6 below 110mm, maybe 100mm if pushing it. Flare performance is clearly improved over mk1 but not enough to be meaningful. Sunstars - pretty pathetic IMHO.
Good settings are all mostly sharper than my 2.8 II. At 70mm f/9 the 2.8 is useable, the f4 II is still not. f4/ mk1 is much better already at f/5.6 and only getting better.

I just don't know if that is enough to justify keeping either f/2.8 II or f/4 II. I more often shoot towards 70mm not 200mm. So you want a good wide end. Maybe I just can get lucky with finding a better copy of mk1 without the baggage of daily 10 year usage. When Canon 24-70 f/2.8 II is so hopelessly bad for anything but portraits you have to cover 70mm end properly somehow. I'm also thinking about Tamron G2 as it get good test results on paper. Again no RF, period. Z - maybe.

f/2.8 II seems to hit the ceiling outside of central section at 24mp which is R3 and R6 mark II. It may be worth keeping it for portraits or maybe not with 135mm f/1.8 ART already in the bag, and potential 85mm purchase.
I'm totally lost in all this.
Sep 02, 2023 at 05:51 PM







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