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Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?

  
 
Peter Figen
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Wolfgang1756 wrote:
Just curious, why did you all get the lens? For shift or tilt? Or any other reason?

I know that for straight vertical lines, shift is desired, but that has changed now with Lightroom, etc, where one click and all lines are vertically aligned instantly!

It is expensive, heavy and slow (F5.6). So what is the appeal?

Thanks


If you're shooting architectural images and need to produce images in single point perspective for a picky architect, you'll need to have a shift lens and know how to use it to achieve that goal. Hint: It often takes a diagonal shift to do that. That's one reason. Second is that correcting for keystoning in software does not always give the results one would hope for. It's not always the same result, in fact it's rarely the same result as getting it as close to right in camera with a shift lens.

The GF30mm f/5.6 t/s lens is a freak of nature, or more correctly, a freak of technology. It has the angle of view equivalent to a 23-24mm lens in 35mm and it has virtually no linear distortion - barrel, pincushion, or mustache that I can find and is insanely sharp and contrasty all the out to the corners even at full shift.

So what if it's slow. The way you use t/s lenses, it's not about wide open apertures at all. You're typically shooting at f/8 to f/11. Limiting the maximum aperture to f/5.6 really helps the lens designers concentrate on superb image quality with a huge image circle to accommodate the shifting and more importantly, helps limit the size and weight of what's already a very large and heavy lens. It's already a $4000 lens. Bumping it up to f/4 would also bump the price up significantly.

How do I use the lens? For architectural photography. For landscape photography. For product photography. To use the tilt function to control planes of focus, and also for interesting portraits. Optically, it's one of the most impressive lenses I've ever used.




Jun 10, 2024 at 04:47 AM
Makten
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


If the center of the lens is in the same position, correcting in software will (theoretically) give the exact same result as using a shift lens. But, you will of course lose resolution, and it can be very tricky to anticipate exactly how much "room" you have to add around your subject to be able to correct the image fully.
An other solution is to simply use a much wider lens, keep it level with the ground and then crop. That is effectively like using a smaller sensor with a shift lens.

Personally I'd want a shift lens because it's satisfying to complete the composition at the time of taking the photo instead of afterwards. But 30 mm is waaaay too wide for me. 45-50 would be nice.



Jun 10, 2024 at 05:31 AM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Makten wrote:
If the center of the lens is in the same position, correcting in software will (theoretically) give the exact same result as using a shift lens. But, you will of course lose resolution, and it can be very tricky to anticipate exactly how much "room" you have to add around your subject to be able to correct the image fully.
An other solution is to simply use a much wider lens, keep it level with the ground and then crop. That is effectively like using a smaller sensor with a shift lens.

Personally I'd want a shift lens because it's
...Show more

For shooting architecture your approach is, shall we say, naive. You choose the lens for the specific perspective and, well, you just have to have the experience shooting this stuff to understand why this doesn't work, And, so often, when you have to have the lens off center and then shift both horizontally and vertically at the same time to achieve single point perspective, well, you just can't do that, but we've gone down that road before, haven't we.

For those of us who shoot architecture professionally, the 30mm t/s, being a 24mm equivalent, is simply not wide enough for a majority of our images. The reality is, is that a 23mm to 24mm is more appropriate for most interior situations, and for the meantime we have to use the quite excellent Canon 24mm t/s-e v2. And for you, the Canon 50mm f/2.8 t/s-e is a most excellent lens on the GFX for when that focal length is appropriate.




Jun 10, 2024 at 09:32 AM
Wolfgang1756
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Peter Figen wrote:
If you're shooting architectural images and need to produce images in single point perspective for a picky architect, you'll need to have a shift lens and know how to use it to achieve that goal. Hint: It often takes a diagonal shift to do that. That's one reason. Second is that correcting for keystoning in software does not always give the results one would hope for. It's not always the same result, in fact it's rarely the same result as getting it as close to right in camera with a shift lens.

The GF30mm f/5.6 t/s lens is a
...Show more

Thanks for the detailed explanation!

Just curious, how does it perform wide open at F5.6? And, have you tried it with 400MP Pixel-Shift? I have noticed that diffraction kicks in at F8 and so I use only F4 & F5.6 in this mode.



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:27 AM
Makten
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Peter Figen wrote:
For shooting architecture your approach is, shall we say, naive. You choose the lens for the specific perspective and, well, you just have to have the experience shooting this stuff to understand why this doesn't work, And, so often, when you have to have the lens off center and then shift both horizontally and vertically at the same time to achieve single point perspective, well, you just can't do that, but we've gone down that road before, haven't we.


It seems you don't know how perspective works. It's not determined by the lens, but only the position of the camera (or rather the entrance pupil of the lens). The lens doesn't care about what's behind it and projection has nothing with perspective to do. The light enters a single point; the entrance pupil. Which means you can get the exact same result regardless of in what direction you point the lens, if you correct afterwards. If your image is wide enough, of course.

Note that I'm not saying you shouldn't use a shift lens. Just that it's not necessary, which is what you implied.

For those of us who shoot architecture professionally, the 30mm t/s, being a 24mm equivalent, is simply not wide enough for a majority of our images. The reality is, is that a 23mm to 24mm is more appropriate for most interior situations, and for the meantime we have to use the quite excellent Canon 24mm t/s-e v2. And for you, the Canon 50mm f/2.8 t/s-e is a most excellent lens on the GFX for when that focal length is appropriate.

As if architecture and professional work are the only uses for a T/S lens? I have zero interest in "interiors" (of that type).



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM
gear-nut
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Sigh. Boys, boys, no need to argue. You CAN correct PERSPECTIVE in post using current digital skew tools. But you will lose image data as the corrections can significantly skew the image borders; and as such as said above, you need to "shoot loose" enough to allow for these losses. You will also trim resolution fairly significantly, and it's not uncommon to lose half your pixels by the time you're done cropping back to rectangular with even a relatively minor post skew correction.

You CANNOT "add tilt" after the fact via any tool; tilt alters the PLANE of focus.

Hence, depending on the situation, you *MIGHT* be able to skew an image to the desired perspective you want, but won't be able to alter the (angle) the PoF. You can however focus stack for added DoF, but that is not the same as or same effect as tilting the lens.

IOW, a good T/S lens is the best tool for ultimate output, but it's not necessarily the only way to get to a "good" result.



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:47 AM
Wolfgang1756
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Of course tilt cannot be replicated in post.

Another use for shift is perfectly stitched panoramas, that replicate a wider lens. But, I would rather just rotate my camera and live with the minor cylindrical/spherical projections' distortions.





Jun 10, 2024 at 11:20 AM
Makten
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


gear-nut wrote:
Sigh. Boys, boys, no need to argue. You CAN correct PERSPECTIVE in post using current digital skew tools. But you will lose image data as the corrections can significantly skew the image borders; and as such as said above, you need to "shoot loose" enough to allow for these losses. You will also trim resolution fairly significantly, and it's not uncommon to lose half your pixels by the time you're done cropping back to rectangular with even a relatively minor post skew correction.

You CANNOT "add tilt" after the fact via any tool; tilt alters the PLANE of focus.

Hence,
...Show more

Yes of course. My posts were only in response to some false claims.
It's often more convenient to use a shift lens, and you can get better image quality. But it's never needed for a certain "perspective".



Jun 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM
Makten
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Wolfgang1756 wrote:
Of course tilt cannot be replicated in post.

Another use for shift is perfectly stitched panoramas, that replicate a wider lens. But, I would rather just rotate my camera and live with the minor cylindrical/spherical projections' distortions.



Actually, you can get them perfect with a non-shifting lens too. But you have to use some sort of device for rotating the lens around its center (instead of around the camera/sensor), which isn't super convenient.



Jun 10, 2024 at 11:25 AM
gear-nut
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Wolfgang1756 wrote:
Of course tilt cannot be replicated in post.

Another use for shift is perfectly stitched panoramas, that replicate a wider lens. But, I would rather just rotate my camera and live with the minor cylindrical/spherical projections' distortions.



But to get a perfect stitch, you need to shift the BODY keeping the lens stationary and NOT just shift the lens (AKA Lateral Stitch)




Jun 10, 2024 at 11:42 AM
 


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gear-nut
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Makten wrote:
Actually, you can get them perfect with a non-shifting lens too. But you have to use some sort of device for rotating the lens around its center (instead of around the camera/sensor), which isn't super convenient.


You can rotate around the lens' optical center to stitch too, but that is a Panoramic Stitch and will impart perspective (barrel) distortions that (sometimes) need to be corrected, and that can again cause loss of image area, and again if severe, requires "shooting loose" to ensure enough remaining image to correct.



Jun 10, 2024 at 11:46 AM
Makten
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


gear-nut wrote:
You can rotate around the lens' optical center to stitch too, but that is a Panoramic Stitch and will impart perspective (barrel) distortions that (sometimes) need to be corrected, and that can again cause loss of image area, and again if severe, requires "shooting loose" to ensure enough remaining image to correct.


Yes and no. If you only want to lay the images as they are on top of each other then yes, you have to shift the camera body and keep the lens where it is. But you can (again) get the exact same result if using software to stitch images where the lens was pointing in different directions, as long as the center of the lens was in the same spot.

[/unnecessary but interesting nerdery]



Jun 10, 2024 at 11:56 AM
gear-nut
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Makten wrote:
Yes and no. If you only want to lay the images as they are on top of each other then yes, you have to shift the camera body and keep the lens where it is. But you can (again) get the exact same result if using software to stitch images where the lens was pointing in different directions, as long as the center of the lens was in the same spot.

[/unnecessary but interesting nerdery]


Here we disagree. Unless your software accounts for the spherical perspective distortion --which is a toggle in some stitching programs for a pano stitch-- you WILL get barrel distortion, period, even if rotating around the optical center of the lens.



Jun 10, 2024 at 12:02 PM
Makten
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


gear-nut wrote:
Here we disagree. Unless your software accounts for the spherical perspective distortion --which is a toggle in some stitching programs for a pano stitch-- you WILL get barrel distortion, period, even if rotating around the optical center of the lens.


Of course (?) the software will have to correct for distortion, or rather make the projection you desire. When using a stationary lens, you will automatically get a rectilinear projection (unless you for some reason change that afterwards). But when pointing the lens in different direction for the individual images to stitch, you have to tell the software how to stitch them.

Anyway, my point is that you can get the same results, if we disregard image quality. The perspective is the same no matter what, as long as the lens is in the same place. Just imagine "being the lens". Every object in the scene will have the same relation to other objects, even if you "look around" from that same spot. Thus any projection can be had from the data you collect at that spot.



Jun 10, 2024 at 12:07 PM
thrice
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


My experience shooting with a view camera tells me that getting shots with an off-centre object devoid of undesirable parallax requires shift. The only other way is cropping, which in essence is using a shifted smaller sensor within the image circle.
This cannot be replicated in software.



Jun 10, 2024 at 04:31 PM
Makten
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?



thrice wrote:
My experience shooting with a view camera tells me that getting shots with an off-centre object devoid of undesirable parallax requires shift. The only other way is cropping, which in essence is using a shifted smaller sensor within the image circle.
This cannot be replicated in software.


I think you should test it for yourself, because it is possible. Parallax is only a function of the relation in space between objects (including the camera), and if that relation stays fixed, it doesn't matter what gear you are using.

Edit: That relation also won't change just because you point the lens in an other direction.



Jun 10, 2024 at 06:17 PM
gear-nut
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Yes and no

Take a situation where a tree is in front of the front left side of the house. With a view camera, we moved a few feet to the right, shifted and voilla the house was square and the tree was to the left now not blocking the house.

Now we can move our digital camera to the same spot as we had our view camera, point at the house and take the picture. The tree isnít blocking anything, but the house isnít square; the right edge is significantly taller than the left, and the roof and baselines taper towards that left edge. But, we can now skew the roof/baselines of the house in post to correct the perspective and make the house square again, and the tree isnít blocking ó in fact it will look identical perspective wise to our view cam capture. The downside is our digital image outer edges are no longer rectangular after the skew, so we have to crop back to rectangular, and thatís where we lose image pixels and why we needed to shoot loose to begin with.

So both get to the same final result; although the one with the TS lens retains more image data.

thrice wrote:
My experience shooting with a view camera tells me that getting shots with an off-centre object devoid of undesirable parallax requires shift. The only other way is cropping, which in essence is using a shifted smaller sensor within the image circle.
This cannot be replicated in software.




Jun 10, 2024 at 06:25 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


The problem with Makten's theories are that they are more or less true in theory but simply don't work in the real world. You would never slap a 12mm lens on your GFX, shoot the full frame and then crop a tiny section out of one part of it. Why bother with medium format sensors at that point, and often, even if you wanted to make images in the manner in which he proposes (assuming for a moment that he's serious here) there are in many or most cases simply no appropriate non shift lenses wide enough. The real question, rather than repeating an old argument about projection theory, is why not use the fab tilt shift lenses we have available to us right now.

And when you often don't know how a client is going to use an image, you really want to give them (and yourself) the largest amount of good data possible. I can't tell you how many times, after the shoot is done, the client all of a sudden wants to make twenty or thirty foot wide prints and then you're left scrambling and wishing you'd have had even more pixels.

Lastly, if you've never done a commercial architectural shoot, you probably won't realize just how important the shift lenses are, and how they facilitate getting to your final version of the shot faster and more effectively where you can see immediately what the final image is going to look like and how much that means to your client's peace of mind as they're staring at your laptop.

So, order yourselves up a few shift lenses and have a ball. There is a learning curve, and the new GF30mm has an even bigger learning curve do to its oddball mounting design which is great for shift but hopelessly inane for tilting. And don't be afraid of those Canon lenses. They're great and, again, in the real world, having a slightly limited range of shift compared to the GF t/s lenses is not really a problem. I thought it might be but then through actually using them you find out otherwise.




Jun 10, 2024 at 07:17 PM
Makten
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Peter Figen wrote:
The problem with Makten's theories are that they are more or less true in theory but simply don't work in the real world. You would never slap a 12mm lens on your GFX, shoot the full frame and then crop a tiny section out of one part of it. Why bother with medium format sensors at that point, and often, even if you wanted to make images in the manner in which he proposes (assuming for a moment that he's serious here) there are in many or most cases simply no appropriate non shift lenses wide enough. The real
...Show more

There would be no need for theory if you didn't state things that are not true. There is a huge difference between:

"you just can't do that" (not true)

...and...

"that's not a practical solution" (subjective opinion)

Of course one should get a T/S lens if you need or want one. But one should also try to understand how it works. It doesn't magically change perspective. It doesn't do anything at all with parallax. It's a lens that allows you to use the whole sensor instead of cropping and/or software correcting. Which is convenient and in most cases gives the best image quality. But it's not the only way.

Edit: Oh, and I actually have two (very old) shift lenses. But they are not good enough unfortunately. I get way better results by shooting wider and cropping. I have an eye on that Canon 50 though...

Edit 2: There is actually one thing you cannot replicate with a non-shifting lens, and that is if you want shallow DOF. The field of focus will be perpendicular to the optical axis, and therefore not ending up the same as if you shift the lens. Same goes for "bokeh panoramas", where you get a curved (or rather polygonal) field instead of a flat one.



Jun 11, 2024 at 02:25 AM
Wolfgang1756
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Where is the 30mm tilt/shift?


Anyone, try this lens with 400MP pixel-shift? That will really test the sharpness/resolution.



Jun 11, 2024 at 10:26 AM
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