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Fast Zoom Lens

billsamuels
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Fast Zoom Lens

Last year, I went to the Big Island of Hawaii and took some photos of Kilawaii's lava that had reached the surface and was glowing in the darkness. I used my Canon EF70-200mm F/4L lens on a tripod (5DSR), but it was very windy on the ridge we hiked to, and because it was fairly far away, and it was still dark out, I had to leave the shutter open for about 15-30 seconds. None of my photos turned out real sharp because the wind was so harsh and the lens was just too slow. I think the 70-200mm zoom itself was fine.
I'm going back at the end of the month and want to get a faster lens that will capture this scene at a reasonable shutter speed so the photos are sharp. I'm wondering if I should get the Canon EF70-200mm F/2.8 OR the same lens with IS? or is the 2.8 fast enough that I won't need IS especially given the extra Cost, Size, and Weight?
Also, I believe there are different versions of this lens, I, II, etc. Is there a big difference between each vesion?
And finally, how does the SIGMA version of this lens compare? I have a wide angle zoom Sigma lens and I'm very surprised how sharp it is and I hear that Sigma is very competitive with Canon on sharpness these days. I can buy a new Sigma lens for the cost of a refurbished or used Canon lens and have a warranty.
Note: When I used a faster F-stop, the details were washed out. I'm hoping a faster lens would have better control of this in dark situations, or perhaps I should use my Canon EOS 6D instead of the 5DSR since the 5DSR isn't the best camera for dark scenes.
Thanks.
Bill

This is one photo I'm talking about w/some minor LR adjustments.Note: when I used an F/4, I lost a lot of details.

Canon EOS 5DS R EF70-200mm f/4L USM lens 200mm f/32.0 15s 1250 ISO 0.0 EV

This version takes advantage of LR's new AI to get rid of some of the noise created by the slow shutter.

Canon EOS 5DS R EF70-200mm f/4L USM lens 200mm f/32.0 15s 1250 ISO 0.0 EV

Aug 05, 2023 at 01:28 PM

jgoetz4
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Fast Zoom Lens

Hi Bill. The lens is fine. Part of the problem is f/32. Drop it to f/5.6 and it should be sharper. Are you shooting RAW? Are you using a remote? Are you shooting in M mode? These all make a difference. You should be able to bump the iso to 2000, maybe 3200. Remember, you're shooting with a 50MP camera, not 20. Hope that helps

Jim

Aug 05, 2023 at 02:15 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Fast Zoom Lens

When I shot photos with a faster f-stop, the photos were a lot more washed out. That's why I went down to an f-32. The problem w/the 5DSR is the megapixels are much smaller so raising the ISO a bit too high causes graininess where other cameras don't have problems at the same iSO. That's why I mentioned using a 6D? But you may be right on all points. Also, I may need a better tripod that's light weight, compact, and stable in the wind. I have an aluminum smaller sized tripod I used, but it's bulky to hike with and it's too light weight for windy areas like mountain tops. Any suggestions on a stable tripod that folds into a small compact area I can put into a camera backpack, but would be stable in winds? Are there filters I could use that would avoid washing out the photo if the amount of light coming off the lava is very bright at night, but I don't want to make the photo dark? That's my concern about a polarizer.
Thanks.

jgoetz4 wrote:
Hi Bill. The lens is fine. Part of the problem is f/32. Drop it to f/5.6 and it should be sharper. Are you shooting RAW? Are you using a remote? Are you shooting in M mode? These all make a difference. You should be able to bump the iso to 2000, maybe 3200. Remember, you're shooting with a 50MP camera, not 20. Hope that helps

Jim

Aug 05, 2023 at 03:48 PM

jgoetz4
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Fast Zoom Lens

Bill, experiment with different settings. A 6D is better, but then so is a good tripod, shooting in RAW and using a remote. You should bracket your shots instead of using filters. With RAW, you can recover more details then with a jpg, and avoid the wash out.
Jim

Aug 05, 2023 at 03:56 PM

lighthound
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Fast Zoom Lens

To add to Jim's suggestions you might also try removing the lens hood and hanging your camera bag on your tripod. Don't let the bag completely dangle though. You want it just touching the ground.

Edited on Aug 05, 2023 at 06:14 PM · View previous versions

Aug 05, 2023 at 04:22 PM

Mike_5D
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Fast Zoom Lens

What drove the choice for such a long shutter speed and small aperture? Were you aiming for maximum depth of field or motion blur?

Since you said you were at some distance, you could get plenty of DOF at a much larger aperture and much shorter shutter speed. If you needed 15-30 sec shutter speeds for motion blur, then dropping the ISO down to 100 would let you use a larger aperture without overexposing.

You're going to need a pretty solid tripod to withstand strong wind. They're going to be heavy or VERY expensive. Probably both. Maybe a table top tripod would have worked better? The base of my iFootage monopod works well as a beefy tripod and accepts whatever head you want.

Aug 05, 2023 at 04:36 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Fast Zoom Lens

jgoetz4 wrote:
Bill, experiment with different settings. A 6D is better, but then so is a good tripod, shooting in RAW and using a remote. You should bracket your shots instead of using filters. With RAW, you can recover more details then with a jpg, and avoid the wash out.
Jim

Hey Jim,
I haven't had any of my cameras set to shoot jpgs in nearly a decade. I shoot raw exclusively. I can't experiment much out there because I only went once and I'll probably go once more this year. We get there maybe about 30 minutes before the sun rises and then you can't see the lava anymore. My guess is maybe I'll try the 6D half the time and if it works, I'll continue with that. I like the idea of using a remote. I have one. I didn't think about using RAW to my advantage.

I think it's time to look at tripods again!
Thanks Jim.

Aug 05, 2023 at 04:50 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Fast Zoom Lens

lighthound wrote:
To add to Joe's suggestions you might also try removing the lens hood and hanging your camera bag on your tripod. Don't let the bag completely dangle though. You want it just touching the ground.

Not a bad suggestion!

Aug 05, 2023 at 04:51 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Fast Zoom Lens

Mike_5D wrote:
What drove the choice for such a long shutter speed and small aperture? Were you aiming for maximum depth of field or motion blur?

Since you said you were at some distance, you could get plenty of DOF at a much larger aperture and much shorter shutter speed. If you needed 15-30 sec shutter speeds for motion blur, then dropping the ISO down to 100 would let you use a larger aperture without overexposing.

I don't remember everything now, believe it or not. I remember that the photos looked washed out and the first set of photos I took were really washed out at F/4-F8. When I switched to F/32, I got a really clean detailed photo with light stars coming off the lava, it was really neat. I didn't see the blur in the tiny screen!!!

Mike_5D wrote:
You're going to need a pretty solid tripod to withstand strong wind. They're going to be heavy or VERY expensive. Probably both. Maybe a table top tripod would have worked better? The base of my iFootage monopod works well as a beefy tripod and accepts whatever head you want.

I have a really heavy old tripod I could use that would withstand the wind. My back won't withstand the hike down to the edge of the caldera!!! I need something inbeween. Any suggestions?

Aug 05, 2023 at 04:55 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Fast Zoom Lens

Can anyone comment on whether the Canon 6D vs. the Canon 5DSR would be significantly better to take photos in dark conditions as seen above? I used the 5DSR because it was the only camera I brought with me, but also because it takes magnificent photos and I thought it would do decently because the lava is so bright, but maybe I could have used a lower ISO and/or a faster F-stop?

I have a Zeiss 100mm F/2 lens, but I don't think that would give me the reach. Maybe I could have used the Zeiss lens on the 5DSR and used the 50mp to zoom in with the computer?

Aug 05, 2023 at 05:03 PM

Mike_5D
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Fast Zoom Lens

Next time, try f/11-16, ISO 100, and whatever shutter speed gives the right exposure. Also, be sure to use mirror lockup mode in case you get into a shutter speed range where it is a problem.

If you're shooting stopped down so far, a faster lens will not help you.

Aug 05, 2023 at 05:05 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Fast Zoom Lens

Mike, I don't remember exactly why I used an F 32 and you're right that a faster lens won't help if that's what I did. I think just putting it on FM was a big help because I see what went wrong. Later this month I'm going to do the following:

1. Get a beefier but still light weight tripod that folds way down but can be tall enough to use and not be influenced by wind so much. I have to investigate this, if anyone has any ideas? It's a long hike and I can't carry much weight!
2. I will bring my Canon 6D as well as the 5DSR and try both with a reasonable ISO.
3. I will bring the same EF 70-200mm f/4L and use an F 8 to F11 and see if that works better with the 6D. Then switch to the 5DSR and try to get photos with that camera.
4. One more thing I want to try, I have both a Zeiss for Canon 100mm and the Zeiss 135mm. I will bring one ir the other (one is heavy vs one has less reach) but they both are much faster lenses and it could ge argued they might be sharper than the Canon, at least I don't have to turn off the AF as I did the last time because it kept getting fooled by smoke.

Thanks for your help everyone. Any ideas on a tripod would be greatly appreciated.

Mike_5D wrote:
Next time, try f/11-16, ISO 100, and whatever shutter speed gives the right exposure. Also, be sure to use mirror lockup mode in case you get into a shutter speed range where it is a problem.

If you're shooting stopped down so far, a faster lens will not help you.

Aug 05, 2023 at 06:58 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Fast Zoom Lens

Try a telephoto lens, at least 500 or 600mm. F-stop not that relevant. Time exposure on tripod.

What is the point of having so much dark foreground or background ruining the shot

Aug 05, 2023 at 07:07 PM

EB-1
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Fast Zoom Lens

Don't use f/32. The diffraction limit is about f/8 for the 5DsR sensor so the image will be significantly blurred. Long shutter speeds are also not a good practice for stability.

Aug 05, 2023 at 07:38 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Fast Zoom Lens

EB-1 wrote:
Don't use f/32. The diffraction limit is about f/8 for the 5DsR sensor so the image will be significantly blurred. Long shutter speeds are also not a good practice for stability.

I have about 6 versions of Canon 70-200s. Stopping down just a little may help, but they are all reasonably sharp in the central area wide open. At least try to shoot near wide open or something like that.
Sometime it is possible to take a number of shorter underexposed images and merge them.
The 5DsR is not so good for low light. The R5 is much better.

EBH

Unfortunately, replacing cameras aren't in my budget these days. Though the R5 or R6 are in my window when I decide to break with the 2 5DSRs and the 6D I have.

Aug 05, 2023 at 08:52 PM

Ferrophot
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Fast Zoom Lens

Your 6D should handle the low light much better than the 5Dsr. I think that I would try for more focal length and also wait for more light to arrive. this will lighten the foreground and lessen the great difference in brightness between the lava and the foreground. I think the best image would consist of the foreground somewhat dim, but with details clearly visible, and the lava glowing red, but not white, to minimise flare. Just take a series of photographs as the light increases with the rising sun, say every 5 minutes. For shots well before sunrise a tripod is probably required, but as the light increases the better low light capabilities of the 6D will allow handholding. I don't think you need worry about going for a R5 or 6, the 6D is up there with then for low light stuff.

Aug 05, 2023 at 09:32 PM

Jesse Evans
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Fast Zoom Lens

Your set up should be fine. Shoot at f/5.6. Your subject seems far enough away that you’re at infinity, and in this case there is no reason to stop down for increased depth of field.

You said the pictures were more washed out at wider apertures, my guess is that’s because they were overexposed and you unintentionally or mistakenly adjusted the aperture instead of the shutter speed.

Make sure to shoot in manual mode, and keep your aperture open, control your exposure using ISO and shutter speed.

If you shot f/32 at 15s you can shoot f/4 at 1/4s.

That isn’t really going to solve issues with blur from wind tho.

If you don’t have it, consider getting the tripod collar for your lens and mounting the lens to the tripod using the collar.

Make sure you use mirror lockup / 2s timer when you take these photos.

What tripod are you using? Probably the single biggest determining factor for having successful low light shots in the wind is a tripod that can resist vibration from the wind. Tho I think Lighthounds advice is also good to help improve things.

Aug 05, 2023 at 10:37 PM

tr1957
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Fast Zoom Lens

billsamuels wrote:

I don't remember everything now, believe it or not. I remember that the photos looked washed out and the first set of photos I took were really washed out at F/4-F8. When I switched to F/32, I got a really clean detailed photo with light stars coming off the lava, it was really neat. I didn't see the blur in the tiny screen!!!

As others have said, it seems like you should have reduced the shutter speed, not the aperture. F5.6 @ 1/2 second would give the same exposure as F32 @ 15 seconds, with reduced risk of wind shaking the camera.

One other suggestion is to stand so that your body is helping to block the wind from the camera.

Aug 05, 2023 at 11:00 PM

John Daniel
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Fast Zoom Lens

Next time use your 70-200mm at 200mm with f/8 and spot or center metering mode on the lava. With your actual setup, your photos were washed out at higher aperture probably because the camera was trying to get an average exposure and since you have a lot of very black (more than 50% of your composition) the camera was trying to get an adequate exposure by increase the exposure time. By using spot metering, the camera will expose for the lava, the exposure time will be reduces by 4 and you should get precise details of the lava.

JD

Aug 06, 2023 at 06:21 AM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Fast Zoom Lens

From that distance you are not going to get best results shooting at 200mm. And you will get better results shooting at dawn or dusk, not when it is pitch-black.

Aug 06, 2023 at 12:42 PM

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