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SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBo...

  
 
mcbroomf
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


You could take a look at Sonnet. They make a TB dock that has 2 NVMe slots and they also make PCIe cards that will take 4 or 8 NVMe sticks. The card needs to go into one of their PCIe Thunderbolt enclosures, but for future expansion seems to offer a lot of flexibility. They have an NVMe compatibility table that is a must read (as some NVMe sticks will fit one but not the other).

https://www.sonnettech.com/product/echo-dual-nvme-thunderbolt-dock/overview.html
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/computer-cards/cards.html
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html






Jun 30, 2023 at 03:49 PM
Vivek
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


Thanks. I will check them out too.


Jul 01, 2023 at 01:11 AM
elkhornsun
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


EB-1 wrote:
Nowadays mid and high end motherboards have heatsinks on one or both sides for the M.2 modules to keep them cool enough. The temperature specs have increased in recent years. E.g., the WD SN850X is rated at 0-85įC operating temperature. With decent airflow the temperatures of the 4-8TB M.2 SSDs are in the 40s with dual-sided or 50s with only single-sided heatsinks. The 2TB and lower capacities are usually single-sided and not much of a problem to heatsink only on the top.

EBH


My HP Z and Lenovo 710 workstations do not have heat sinks for the NVME modules but rely on the inside fan to cool them. I have never seen a motherboard with top and bottom heat sinks for NVME modules but maybe you can tell me about the one you have seen or better yet, one you have actually used for a couple years or more.

For RAID I needed to add a PCIe card that holds multiple modules and provides separate data lanes for each one. It does have heat sinks top and bottom as well as special heat sink double sided foam like material to provide a thermal bond beteen the modules and the heat sink device. Without this material to provide thermal transfer the heat sink would be of little or no use.



Jul 01, 2023 at 04:51 PM
EB-1
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


The workstations are not the best for motherboard performance as they are designed for reliability and business use.
My MSI X670E board has two PCIe 5.0 M.2 slots that are two-sided and two M.2 slots that are only PCIe 4.0 and single sided. Most of the mid-upper range boards ~$500-1200 have well-heatsinked M.2 slots. Some of the cheaper ones have only one or two slots with heatsinks. The single sided slot is mostly good enough though. I tend to use the older style metal cases with a side fan that moves the air around before the other fans push it out. The newer cases are ridiculous glass.

If you don't need all the PCIe slots and have an extra 16 lanes then you can buy a variety of PCIe 4.0 4x M.2 riser cards (some with fans) and some high end boards are supplied with an M.2 riser board. I would much rather have a few U.2 or U.3 ports on the boards, but that's not on consumer products. You can pick up a used U.2 RAID card for a decent price nowadays. At some point using the latest TLC Sabrent 8TB M.2 SSDs may be a good idea if if simplifies your architecture compared to a larger number of the 4TB SSDs.

EBH



Jul 01, 2023 at 05:16 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


mcbroomf wrote:
You could take a look at Sonnet. They make a TB dock that has 2 NVMe slots.

https://www.sonnettech.com/product/echo-dual-nvme-thunderbolt-dock/overview.html


Their marketing material for the above hub states up to 1.5GB/s data transfer speed per SSD or double that for a RAID 0, so it seems for a single drive you're only getting up to half the throughput. It's a neat dock, but TBH, for $30 I'm getting 1GB/s. If I'm going with a TB SSD enclosure I'd like to get max throughput, considering the cost.

Also, their SSD compatibility list for the dock is a year out of date. I do like Sonnet...



Jul 01, 2023 at 10:25 PM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


rscheffler wrote:
Their marketing material for the above hub states up to 1.5GB/s data transfer speed per SSD or double that for a RAID 0, so it seems for a single drive you're only getting up to half the throughput. It's a neat dock, but TBH, for $30 I'm getting 1GB/s. If I'm going with a TB SSD enclosure I'd like to get max throughput, considering the cost.

Also, their SSD compatibility list for the dock is a year out of date. I do like Sonnet...



I noticed the NVMe pdf was out of date and found this linked on one of their product pages. Not sure if it's fully up to date but at least is has the Sabrent 4 plus.
https://sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/M2_compatibility.pdf

As an FYI I asked them about using the thick (0.9") gaming heat sink on sticks in the dock enclosure (Sabrent recommend them in their videos) and they said they won't work.

Anyone have recommendations on PCIe cards for SSD expansion? To either install in a PC (or a Mac Pro though not for me) or to be installed in an external thunderbolt enclosure? I'm thinking of upgrading my primary image storage from a mix of SATA SSD and HD. PCIe is attractive as I could install one now in my PC desktop, move it to a new one when I upgrade, or install it in an enclosure if I end up switching to a MAC Studio.



Jul 02, 2023 at 03:25 AM
Gregory Edge
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


I have purchased and used many OWC things since the early 90s. I have never been more disappointed in a product than I was in the 4 bay Thunderbolt enclosure. My plan was to use RAID 5 and stick 4 drives in it and use it with my Mac mini as my user drive.

I put four 8TB Red drives in it and loaded the SoftRAID software. What a piece of garbage I got stuck with. The software made things so slow it was beyond ridiculous. I finally gave up on it and just used this enclosure as an overpriced JBOD enclosure.

I have my user folder on one drive, Time Machine on another, backups of media on two other drives. I then put a 4 bay NAS on my network and use that to backup everything. I use Chronosync software to make it all happen. So in my home I have 4 places everything is backed up to. For offsite backup I use Amazon Prime for photo storage since it is included but my main offsite backup is Backblaze.

When I offload memory cards I don't delete them for at least 24 hrs. My backups run overnight although Time Machine is running often.

If I used a laptop with a docking station I would keep everything on a single drive plugged in via Thunderbolt and use a NAS for back ups. Maybe even two 2 drive NAS units.




Jul 04, 2023 at 10:41 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


I am providing my practical advice on speed for external:

Facts:

TB3 and TB4 enclosures are basically the same speed but TB4 guarantees a speed. However from my experience my TB3 has the same speed last TB3. So if you do some research TB3 is cheaper - find a fast one.

Unless you spend mega bucks, the dual nvme drives are limited to about 1500mb/s stripped. I have one and it is slower than my faster single nvme ssd (not raided). Thus I would recommend buying multiple tb3 enclosures with big tb, and you would get about 2700/2500 (faster and less complicated). I have a tb4 hub that works pretty well.

Ssd 2.5" (not nvme) can reach 500, 1000, 1,500 and 2,00 eg with raid 0 on 1,2,3,4 ssd's. They typically keep their speed from o-full at near 500. Cheaper QLC NVME's typically drop from max (eg 3000) to 100mbs when you hit the end of the cache. Thus right now, if you want just sustained big speed, a tb3 enclosure with 4 2.5" ssd's is more practical can be faster than 4 NVME's. [gaming is a different matter where short bursts are more important). [this if fixed to reflect error pointed out below - 2.5" can be QLC or TLC but generally maintain 500]

NVME's come in different flavours. TLC (triple state) vs QLC (quad state) - QLC is typically slower and have less cache before they slow down. In addition they have different vintages with newer vintage being faster. Typically even with the fastest nvme has a cache where they drop from maximum mb/s to about 1/5 the speed. Bigger cache is better. Look for a less expensive newer vintage TLC with big cache (eg Kingston KC 3000). Tomhardware does a good sustained write test - look your propectve nvme up there before you buy.

Hopefully this helps but to summarize, for those on a budget:
1) for storage consider staying with HDD with TB3 4 bay and raid 0 for fastest cheapest biggest (200 unraided-400 raided mb/s). I just bought a 18tb nas for $400 that is very good in my AKITA 4bay TB3.
2) If you want faster and don't have big storage get 2x 2b 2.5" =4tb raided 0 for video and a 18tb HDD (for backup) in a TB3 4 bay enclosure.
2) for working use buy a 4tb Kingston kc 3000. it will be 2800w/2500r with a TB3 (I have acasis) and connect with USBC. or similar. This is fast enough for almost any video that you might do. And will be almost as fast as what your Mac will do internally.There are other fast big cache nvme - but kc 3000 is cheap and pretty good [this advice is time limited and something else will arise that is cheap, fast and big cache].



Edited on Jul 05, 2023 at 09:49 AM · View previous versions



Jul 04, 2023 at 01:00 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


Scott Stoness wrote:
Ssd 2.5" (not nvme) can reach 500, 1000, 1,500 and 2,00 eg with raid 0 on 1,2,3,4 ssd's. They typically keep their speed from o-full because they are 2 state - not tic or qlc. NVME's typically drop from max (eg 3000) to 100mbs when you hit the end of the cache. Thus right now, if you want just sustained big speed, a tb3 enclosure with 4 2.5" ssd's is more practical can be faster than 4 NVME's. [gaming is a different matter where short bursts are more important).


This needs some research but my impression was that very few currently available 2.5" SATA SSDs are not at least TLC. The cheaper QLC based memory in the 2.5" SATA SSDs runs into the same slowdowns once cache is exhausted. It probably also depends a lot on the SSD's controller, etc. Based on the fact some TB NVME enclosures reach ~2.5GB/s read/write speeds (like your acasis), I don't see the point of a 4x 2.5" SSD RAID 0 array unless maybe you need 16TB. It won't be faster than a single full-speed NVME TB enclosure and the RAID array adds complexity and higher risk of data loss (of course you're backing up a RAID 0 but you have to keep on top of doing so). 2.5" SSDs are cheaper now, but not that much cheaper than decent NVMEs of the same storage capacity. I typically bought the 2.5" SSDs because I have a lot of SATA cables/accessories to simply plug them into. But the considerable speed deficit (of a single drive) vs. NVME at not much cost savings finally got me to go with NVME instead.

NVME's come in different flavours. TLC (triple state) vs QLC (quad state) - QLC is typically slower and have less cache before they slow down. In addition they have different vintages with newer vintage being faster. Typically even with the fastest nvme has a cache where they drop from maximum mb/s to about 1/5 the speed. Bigger cache is better. Look for a less expensive newer vintage TLC with big cache (eg Kingston KC 3000). Tomhardware does a good sustained write test - look your propectve nvme up there before you buy.

It appears the larger the NVME you buy, the larger the cache will be (probably true for most SSDs). It's possible for many data transfers you won't saturate the cache. Yes, definitely check Tom's Hardware for benchmarks. My impression though is unless you need/want 8TB, probably avoid QLC if you plan to do a lot of very long, sustained writes.

IMO most probably don't need a HDD RAID unless they want a large online volume for quick access of their archive items. But given you can now buy ~20TB HDDs, many average users would probably be sufficiently served with backing up to multiple HDDs. For 'work in progress', a single higher capacity NVME in even a 10Gb/s USB enclosure will be fine for photo use, which once processed, can be moved to HDDs (plus whatever other 'archive' options one needs/prefers).



Jul 04, 2023 at 05:04 PM
EB-1
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


I'm not sure which SSDs ones he's talking about that are MLC. I've not seen MLC of any kind in years. The 850 Pro was available in a 2TB capacity released about 8 years ago and MLC. My example is from later in 2015. They also had an 850 EVO which was TLC and of course the older 840 EVO and subsequent 860 EVO and 870 EVO used TLC also. I have 9x 4TB SATA III SSDs, all TLC including several WD, Sandisk and Samsung. I also have a dozen or so 2TB that are MLC, with the exception of that 850 Pro.
Most of the newer SSDs from WD/Sandisk are slower and crappier than the 3-4 year old designs. Price has driven everything downhill.

EBH



Jul 04, 2023 at 08:03 PM
 


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Scott Stoness
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


rscheffler wrote:
This needs some research but my impression was that very few currently available 2.5" SATA SSDs are not at least TLC. The cheaper QLC based memory in the 2.5" SATA SSDs runs into the same slowdowns once cache is exhausted. It probably also depends a lot on the SSD's controller, etc. Based on the fact some TB NVME enclosures reach ~2.5GB/s read/write speeds (like your acasis), I don't see the point of a 4x 2.5" SSD RAID 0 array unless maybe you need 16TB. It won't be faster than a single full-speed NVME TB enclosure and the RAID array adds
...Show more

I checked and I was wrong and I will correct above. The 2.5" SSD Sata drives are not 2 state drives but can be TLC or QLC. I had tested a 1tb one I had and I recalled it sustained 500 for full 1tb write. I am going to go back and look at it again but I was definitely wrong about the technology - I am not sure I was wrong about the practical. I am going to check again and then update.

Here are sustained writes for 2 good drives and a cheap nvme. 1 2.5" and 1 nvme (my favourite). And a cheap one I bought to find that it drops to low speed after cache is full.

eg
Samsung 870 EVO 4TB SATA 2.5" - economical fast example $225 for 4TB on amazon
Kingston kc3000 NVME - economical fast example $400 for 4tb on amazon
Kingston NV2 2tb -- slow cheap example $85 for 2tb on amazon so similar price to 2.5" for 4tb

The 2.5" SSD sustains 500 after cache full - green in first chart
The Kingston NVME sustains 1000 after cache full - red in 2nd chart
The Kingston NV2 sustains only 250 after cache is full - red in 3rd chart

What this shows is that a good 2.5" will maintain 500, a good nvme will maintain 1000, but a cheap nvme will drop to lower than a good 2.5". So I was practically right but technically wrong.

This shows that a 2.5" SSD can be significantly faster than a cheaper NVME. So be careful with overbuying the enclosures and check the sustained writes on Tomshardware.

DON"T go NVME route for storage UNLESS you get the better (eg KC 3000) faster, bigger cache and good single enclosure (eg acacias TB3). 2.5" in your current TB3 HDD enclosure are faster than the cheaper NVME's for large data use.


















Jul 05, 2023 at 09:32 AM
Vivek
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


mcbroomf wrote:
You could take a look at Sonnet. They make a TB dock that has 2 NVMe slots and they also make PCIe cards that will take 4 or 8 NVMe sticks. The card needs to go into one of their PCIe Thunderbolt enclosures, but for future expansion seems to offer a lot of flexibility. They have an NVMe compatibility table that is a must read (as some NVMe sticks will fit one but not the other).

https://www.sonnettech.com/product/echo-dual-nvme-thunderbolt-dock/overview.html
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/computer-cards/cards.html
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html


Thanks mcbroomf for the links. The Echo Dual NVMe Thunderbolt dock is certainly very interesting. I finally got some time to check these out.

My situation: I use the setup primarily for processing my photos. I rarely do videos but might dabble into some videos in the near future. My primary requirements are redundant data set (cannot lose any raw files), one backup online, be able to use the setup for 4 to 5 years without upgrades (lack of time), reasonably fast performance for the current vintage RAW file processing. All my cataloging uses LR Classic and for processing I use LR-Classic (generic snaps), Photoshop (for the advanced processing for bird photos), and Topaz suite for the bird photos (NR, Sharpening, Up-rezzing etc.). The current setup is shown in the first illustration below. The Raw files are on the Akitio and the LR catalog is on the Fusion Drive.

Current issues: My current setup is VERY slow now, although it was ok when I first got it in 2017. The response time for the various activities necessary (rendering preview before culling, loading into Photoshop, Topaz etc.) is too slow. The external RAID1 connected primary drive is too slow (~160 MB/s). The Trebleet is giving me at least 10X speed for read and write, with read even faster. The i5 (I5-7600K) is likely croaking too and the Radeon 580 is probably slow too. Overall, the system is too slow.

Proposed solution: The first thing I did is got myself a Mac Studio - M1 Ultra, 64 GB unified memory, 4TB SSD (internal). I intend to buy 2X of the Sonnettech Echo Dual NVMe Thunderbolt docks. I also intend to buy 4x 4TB WD Black SN850SX SSDs and connect them as shown in the second illustration below. The primary drive (RAID1) should be able to give me 2800 MB/s which should be reasonably fast. The details are as follows:

  1. Put two WD Black 4TB SSDs in the two Sonnettech docks in RAID0 configuration.
  2. Hopefully create a RAID1 volume from these two RAID0 volumes
  3. Repurpose the Akitio to be the local RAID1 backup for this RAID1 volume
  4. Setup CCC to clone the RAID1 volume to the Akitio nightly
  5. Setup Backblaze to backup the RAID1 volume nightly
  6. Setup a separate 8TB Timemachine for the MacStudio
  7. Connect 2 displays to the 2 Sonnettech docks over Thunderbolt


Questions: Ideally I donít want to use any third party software for RAID (like SoftRAID XT). I hope that this setup serves me for the next 4 to 5 years. So, my questions are:

  1. What do you think about the proposed configuration?
  2. Do you know if Apple MacOS disk utility can create a RAID1 volume from two RAID0 volumes?
  3. Sonnettech website is not entirely clear on how to get a RAID0 going on the volume. Any experience with this config? I have an email out to them and I hope they respond by Monday.
  4. Any gotchas you can think of?


Thanks a lot for your time and insights.

ó Vivek







Current 2017 5K iMAC setup







Proposed Mac Studio Connections




Jul 08, 2023 at 04:26 PM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


The PDF of SSD compatibility has notes 6 and 11 for the WD and #6 says not compatible with the Mac OS. I don't know what that means as I'm using a stick in a single Acasis enclosure, but I would check with them. I asked about a compatibility recently and they were pretty responsive. I was looking at 8TB sticks and decided on Sabrent 4 plus if I do it. I also wanted SSDs that are compatible with both the dock and the PCIe card in case I switch.

https://sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/M2_compatibility.pdf



Jul 08, 2023 at 05:16 PM
EB-1
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


Vivek wrote:
Current issues: My current setup is VERY slow now, although it was ok when I first got it in 2017. The response time for the various activities necessary (rendering preview before culling, loading into Photoshop, Topaz etc.) is too slow. The external RAID1 connected primary drive is too slow (~160 MB/s). The Trebleet is giving me at least 10X speed for read and write, with read even faster. The i5 (I5-7600K) is likely croaking too and the Radeon 580 is probably slow too. Overall, the system is too slow.

Proposed solution: The first thing I did is got myself a
...Show more

I would not run RAID 01, which seems to be what you are doing with the four 4TB SSDs, but rather RAID 10.
To be practical if you only need 8TB, then buy a single 8TB SSD and mirror that or sync to another drive, rather than creating a nested array.
The Sonnettech Echo Dual NVMe Thunderbolt dock is just that, and has no CPU or anything to run FW or software that I can find. It appears that it would be dependent on the host for managing arrays.

EBH

EBH



Jul 09, 2023 at 02:07 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


According to the Sonnet dual NVME webpage, it requires RAID 0 to achieve maximum SSD throughput, otherwise each drive is limited to around 1500MB/s.

I too would probably just go a single 8TB NVME in an Acasis enclosure. Note that they have a TB dock with single NVME. You could get two and use it similar to your original proposal with the Sonnet dual NVME dock but skip the need for a RAID 0 to reach the maximum data transfer speed needed with the Sonnet dock (assumes the Acasis will hit the maximum possible under TB4 - its webpage implies it may come close). The Acasis dock looks like it needs to be powered by a PD capable power source that will deliver 60W or more, so that's an additional expense for each one.

I'm a bit of a RAID skeptic in that it seems like a more complex way to create a clone. It is immediate, but that immediacy could also be undesirable if something is accidentally deleted. I'd rather use CCC on a schedule to clone one 8TB SSD to the other so you at least still have backup snapshots on the second SSD in case you need to recover something.




Jul 09, 2023 at 09:58 AM
EB-1
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


But RAID 10 will double that back to 3GB/sec. Anyway, it's not ideal to have nested software arrays across two external devices.

EBH



Jul 09, 2023 at 12:58 PM
Vivek
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?




I would not run RAID 01, which seems to be what you are doing with the four 4TB SSDs, but rather RAID 10.
To be practical if you only need 8TB, then buy a single 8TB SSD and mirror that or sync to another drive, rather than creating a nested array.
The Sonnettech Echo Dual NVMe Thunderbolt dock is just that, and has no CPU or anything to run FW or software that I can find. It appears that it would be dependent on the host for managing arrays.

EBH


Thanks EBH, I was thinking about this exact scenario. I think RAID10 makes sense, but the issue is that the throughput would likely be limited to 1.5 GB/s on each of the RAID1 volumes. I think this should be OK as long as the two RAID1 volumes are on two separate TB controllers on the Mac Studio. The other option obviously is just using the 8TB drives. The premium on these seems to be a bit high right now.



Jul 09, 2023 at 06:42 PM
Vivek
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


mcbroomf wrote:
The PDF of SSD compatibility has notes 6 and 11 for the WD and #6 says not compatible with the Mac OS. I don't know what that means as I'm using a stick in a single Acasis enclosure, but I would check with them. I asked about a compatibility recently and they were pretty responsive. I was looking at 8TB sticks and decided on Sabrent 4 plus if I do it. I also wanted SSDs that are compatible with both the dock and the PCIe card in case I switch.

https://sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/M2_compatibility.pdf


Thanks Mike. The PDF seems weird. I have friends using the WD black SSD with Mac, so not sure what gives. Maybe there is something specific with the Echo dock.



Jul 09, 2023 at 06:44 PM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


Yeah, I would check with them. I wonder if there was some kind of firmware issue going on that has been resolved and the table not updated. They have an older pdf linked elsewhere that doesn't even list some of the more recent SSDs, so this one may need an update.


Jul 10, 2023 at 04:09 AM
eyal
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · SSD vs NVMe and RAID4 vs JBOD config for LRc photo storage with M1 MacBook Pro?


Amazon and Best Buy have the WD SN850X 4tb for $230. Two of those in a SonnetTech Echo Dual NVMe dock for about $750 total and have 8 TB of JBOD/SPAN? I'm fine with 'just' tripling my current speeds on the NAS...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B7CQ2CHH

Thoughts?



Edited on Jul 11, 2023 at 07:56 AM · View previous versions



Jul 11, 2023 at 06:07 AM
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