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New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?

  
 
TheEyesHaveIt
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p.7 #1 · p.7 #1 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Owning both Cobalt Elite and Really Nice Images All Films 5, I'm finding they greatly differ in terms of the color signatures for the (allegedly) same films.

For example, this is Kodak Portra 400 for both - very very different outputs. Same exact edit / WB settings. As I've not shot the film before, I'm not sure which one is "more accurate".





Sep 09, 2023 at 12:17 PM
Ulysseita
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p.7 #2 · p.7 #2 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


straight away from a scan and a raw with daylight setting of the wb, our profile+grain and mask.
Not a calibrated, adapted and perfect scan, just "on the fly" scan.


Could you recognize which one is a scan and which is a raw developed with Cobalt Elite Portra 400nb?














of course, setting the wb with a grey card makes everything a lot closer...




Sep 10, 2023 at 09:46 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.7 #3 · p.7 #3 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


I really enjoy using the Elite Fuji Provia 100F and Kodak Portra 400/800 cobalt profiles in my general photography. I usually use a preset to make small adjustments, especially to the greens, to make them suit my personal style. These tweaks are just my personal preferences, not necessarily to make the photos look more like their specific film.

I also frequently use the Superia 400 profile for that 'classic neg' profile but done better.




Sep 10, 2023 at 11:24 AM
dmccurtis
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p.7 #4 · p.7 #4 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Pro 160, Provia 400, Ektachrome, and Ektar are defaults for me, with Portra 800 for when lower contrast and saturation is desired.

One thing I haven't figured out yet since the latest updates with the editing panel included is how the grain presets are intended to interact with the grain mask. I realize that the grain size and roughness values are global settings, so the preset chosen will affect the mask settings, but the global and mask amount settings are additive. Is it intended that the user select the correct grain preset, apply the grain mask, and then adjust the global amount? Leaving the amount untouched seems to apply more grain than I would expect to be intended.

I don't tend to apply grain much, and of course we can adjust to our desired amount, but I'm curious what the intended workflow is.



Sep 10, 2023 at 10:52 PM
Ulysseita
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p.7 #5 · p.7 #5 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


dmccurtis wrote:
Pro 160, Provia 400, Ektachrome, and Ektar are defaults for me, with Portra 800 for when lower contrast and saturation is desired.

One thing I haven't figured out yet since the latest updates with the editing panel included is how the grain presets are intended to interact with the grain mask. I realize that the grain size and roughness values are global settings, so the preset chosen will affect the mask settings, but the global and mask amount settings are additive. Is it intended that the user select the correct grain preset, apply the grain mask, and then adjust the global
...Show more

The editing menu is designed to be used in a specific order, starting from the top and working your way down. This means you should first select the grain mask and then adjust the grain settings.

We identified and resolved an issue with the initial release of the update related to the grain mask. In the past, selecting the grain mask inadvertently modified the basic grain settings. Rest assured, this issue has been addressed, and such unintended changes will no longer occur.
If you happen to encounter this issue, please follow these steps: re-download the pack, delete the grain mask preset, and then re-import the pack.
It's important to note that each element in the editing menu operates independently from the others. When you make a selection in one section, like N1, you can be confident that no other presets in the menu will be affected by your choice.

For further information, please visit our website:
https://www.cobalt-image.com/guide-for-elite-film-emulations/



Sep 11, 2023 at 02:49 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.7 #6 · p.7 #6 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Ulysseita wrote:
The editing menu is designed to be used in a specific order, starting from the top and working your way down. This means you should first select the grain mask and then adjust the grain settings.

We identified and resolved an issue with the initial release of the update related to the grain mask. In the past, selecting the grain mask inadvertently modified the basic grain settings. Rest assured, this issue has been addressed, and such unintended changes will no longer occur.
If you happen to encounter this issue, please follow these steps: re-download the pack, delete the grain mask preset, and
...Show more

The video tutorial from the link you shared is really useful. I appreciate you creating this. The demonstration of adjusting various settings like low/high key, Orton, vignetting, and adjusting their intensity is very helpful. I just got the Elite Kodak pack, and I'm excited to experiment with the Ektar and Ektachrome profiles today.


Regarding the correct order for the 'grain' options:
If I click on the "Grain Mask" preset followed by the profile choice for "Cobalt Elite Grain" or vice-versa, I get the same results. Perhaps it does not make a difference which one you click first.



Sep 11, 2023 at 10:54 AM
dmccurtis
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p.7 #7 · p.7 #7 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Great explanation - thanks! That's how I figured it should work, so it looks like I need to redownload the packs and replace the grain mask preset.


Sep 11, 2023 at 02:50 PM
edwin333
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p.7 #8 · p.7 #8 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Just curious, but how does the Basic DNG Pack work with the Cobalt Elite Film Emulations? I have purchased both the Basic with the Elite Fuji Pos as directed on the website. In the profiles drop down menu in Lrc I see both the Basic profiles and the film emulations. It would appear they work independent of each other.


Sep 16, 2023 at 12:47 PM
RustyRus
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p.7 #9 · p.7 #9 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


edwin333 wrote:
Just curious, but how does the Basic DNG Pack work with the Cobalt Elite Film Emulations? I have purchased both the Basic with the Elite Fuji Pos as directed on the website. In the profiles drop down menu in Lrc I see both the Basic profiles and the film emulations. It would appear they work independent of each other.


You can't use the film emulations without the Basic Pack-



Sep 16, 2023 at 01:08 PM
edwin333
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p.7 #10 · p.7 #10 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


RustyRus, Thanks for the response. Just trying to understand how they work together. Is one of the basic profiles baked into the each film emulation profile? So when you select Velvia 50 profile, it has one of the Basic profile already in it? Sorry if this is a stupid question just curious what is happening 'under the hood'.


Sep 16, 2023 at 01:42 PM
 


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TheEyesHaveIt
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p.7 #11 · p.7 #11 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


The basic profile is specific to your camera model. If you try to apply one of the emulation presets to a file coming from another camera, it'll throw an error. Essentially, the basic profile "normalizes" the file coming out of the camera into a base layer that the emulations can work on top of. This seems quite unique to Cobalt's system - each camera output will be slightly different and the basic profile adjusts things to ensure all cameras start at the same point before the emulation is applied. That way, the emulation is always working off of a consistent foundation - no matter which camera you start with. I think this ends up yielding better accuracy for the emulation (at least based on Cobalt's measurements).

From a practical perspective, you just need to apply the emulation profile and it'll automatically apply the basic profile first. Or if you want, you can apply the basic profile independently if you want to use the Cobalt profiles like neutral, color, repro, etc. instead of the Adobe ones.



Sep 16, 2023 at 04:43 PM
edwin333
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p.7 #12 · p.7 #12 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


TheEyesHaveIt wrote:
The basic profile is specific to your camera model. If you try to apply one of the emulation presets to a file coming from another camera, it'll throw an error. Essentially, the basic profile "normalizes" the file coming out of the camera into a base layer that the emulations can work on top of. This seems quite unique to Cobalt's system - each camera output will be slightly different and the basic profile adjusts things to ensure all cameras start at the same point before the emulation is applied. That way, the emulation is always working off of a consistent
...Show more

Thanks for the explanation.



Sep 16, 2023 at 07:02 PM
torifile
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p.7 #13 · p.7 #13 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Iíve got the Kodachrome presets. Is there a way to get a discount?


Sep 16, 2023 at 07:20 PM
BadlonMondo
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p.7 #14 · p.7 #14 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Hello everyone, especially Fred! I know my question may seem somewhat inappropriate, but Iíll ask anyway. Is there any chance that Mr. Miranda or another experienced photographer will release a Cobalt Elite formulation for settings in Fuji's X-Trans V in-camera system or maybe which is looks completely same? I'm new to photo editing and can't afford to buy a preset yet. I am simply delighted with the color, light, shadows, clarity, brightness of the photographs presented, dear Fred, on the first page of this thread!!!
Thank you! Sorry for my English...



Sep 23, 2023 at 11:09 AM
Ayoul
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p.7 #15 · p.7 #15 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


BadlonMondo wrote:
Hello everyone, especially Fred! I know my question may seem somewhat inappropriate, but Iíll ask anyway. Is there any chance that Mr. Miranda or another experienced photographer will release a Cobalt Elite formulation for settings in Fuji's X-Trans V in-camera system or maybe which is looks completely same? I'm new to photo editing and can't afford to buy a preset yet. I am simply delighted with the color, light, shadows, clarity, brightness of the photographs presented, dear Fred, on the first page of this thread!!!
Thank you! Sorry for my English...


It's probably impossible to get close to these looks with only the in camera settings. There are dozens of in camera recipes for X trans cameras around the web. you better look that way and find some recipe that you like instead of trying to ask for a recipe which mimics what you see in this thread.

Just my 2 cents.



Sep 25, 2023 at 05:57 AM
lomondra
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p.7 #16 · p.7 #16 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


I played with my friend's Canon R8 outputs in Lightroom - Elite Portra and Fuji Neg. and the results looked quite interesting. So I bought the Elite Portra, the Elite Fuji Neg and the base pack for the X-T5 and the results look different and pretty awful - Fuji Neg. is just an oversaturated mess and red face generator. So for me a DEFINITE NO, waste of money.

I also compared images of the same scenes from both cameras and the difference is really noticeable, e.g. red has a different saturation but also a different hue. It is noticeable in the profiles of the basic pack, by applying the film simulation the differences are further accentuated. So buying profiles is quite a lottery.



Sep 29, 2023 at 08:01 AM
Mzrk
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p.7 #17 · p.7 #17 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


lomondra wrote:
I played with my friend's Canon R8 outputs in Lightroom - Elite Portra and Fuji Neg. and the results looked quite interesting. So I bought the Elite Portra, the Elite Fuji Neg and the base pack for the X-T5 and the results look different and pretty awful - Fuji Neg. is just an oversaturated mess and red face generator. So for me a DEFINITE NO, waste of money.

I also compared images of the same scenes from both cameras and the difference is really noticeable, e.g. red has a different saturation but also a different hue. It is noticeable in the
...Show more

You just explained how Cobalt works. Do you see all the basic packs you can buy for different cameras? They don't test all those cameras! It's a simple edit in the dcp file. That's how they do it. You can do it yourself. If you use a Mac you can download DCPTool from the App Store and convert a random basic pack to a XML file, change the camera identifier, and compile it to DCP again, and voila you get a new "basic pack" for a different camera. In other words, one basic pack is enough.



Sep 29, 2023 at 01:56 PM
TheEyesHaveIt
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p.7 #18 · p.7 #18 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?




Mzrk wrote:
You just explained how Cobalt works. Do you see all the basic packs you can buy for different cameras? They don't test all those cameras! It's a simple edit in the dcp file. That's how they do it. You can do it yourself. If you use a Mac you can download DCPTool from the App Store and convert a random basic pack to a XML file, change the camera identifier, and compile it to DCP again, and voila you get a new "basic pack" for a different camera. In other words, one basic pack is enough.


I thought the basic profile was meant to be a normalizing layer across cameras so the starting point would be the same? Are you saying it isnít and is just a sort of DRM?



Sep 29, 2023 at 02:13 PM
Ayoul
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p.7 #19 · p.7 #19 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


Mzrk wrote:
You just explained how Cobalt works. Do you see all the basic packs you can buy for different cameras? They don't test all those cameras! It's a simple edit in the dcp file. That's how they do it. You can do it yourself. If you use a Mac you can download DCPTool from the App Store and convert a random basic pack to a XML file, change the camera identifier, and compile it to DCP again, and voila you get a new "basic pack" for a different camera. In other words, one basic pack is enough.


I really don't think so.

I agree that I can spot a lack of homogeneity between cameras (even of the same brand) using the basic packs, contrary to their hyperbolic claims, but by inspecting 2 neutral dcp profiles from 2 different cameras with lumariver, I can easily see that all the values are differents and not a copy paste.

And the 2 cameras are the A7III and the A9. Same brand, same era, same megapixel count. I'm pretty sure that their CFA are not radically different. In fact, my own ICC profiles prove it. If I use one of my own ICC profiles done for my A9 with some A7III files, the results are almost identical in C1. So in my experience, even with 2 close cameras of the same brand and same era, the profiles are not a copy paste from one another.

On which DCP profile from Cobalt did you spot a simple change of name ?




Sep 29, 2023 at 03:00 PM
lomondra
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p.7 #20 · p.7 #20 · New "Cobalt Elite" Film Emulations - How are they in practice?


The truth, it seems, is somewhere in between. Some cameras are really calibrated and do not differ only by the name of the camera in DCP. I've seen outputs from R8 and R5 look really nice and uniform, and Portra for example looks very similar/interchangeable to the samples others have posted here.

On the other hand, it is evident that many cameras have not been calibrated at all and will really be a copy-paste of some "closest similar", which simply does not work.
Of course I'm pissed because it's not exactly cheap fun.

In the end, the biggest paradox is that presets that don't play this game for unified output - for example RNI All Films or The Classic Presets, look much better across different cameras (including Canon bayer vs. Fuji X-Trans) - and you can use them work and costs a fraction of the price of Cobalt.



Sep 30, 2023 at 12:54 AM
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