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Why not a consumer plastic lens?

  
 
Imagemaster
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


grandmas wrote:
It was mentioned by another poster in this thread that it might be possible to handhold the 800mm with a shutter speed of 1/30. Granted this will not be the same for every person. This is different information than what I use for other lenses and the reason I asked.


I am being nice too when I say it is basic photography knowledge that the longer the focal-length of a lens, the higher the shutter speed you should use to avoid motion blur from camera/lens movement.

And the slowest speed that anyone can shoot handheld applies to every lens you use. Again basic photography, not WOW.



May 24, 2023 at 10:19 PM
charlyw
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


grandmas wrote:
Is it not possible to make an all plastic lens in a 500mm or 600mm that is cheap and lightweight? Would be consumer plastic (not glass) and light enough an old lady like me could handhold it.

I have plastic lenses in my glasses and just got to thinking.


I dare you to ask your optician how much your lenses base element costs coming from the factory - which he then shapes and fits into the chosen design carrier. And that's just for the coated plastic element of maybe 50mm diameter of which only the center is basically used to get a good image... In a long lens you have elements that are much bigger and need to be sharp throughout the whole lens, the outer "not so good" areas don't get cut away but instead contribute quite considerably to the image quality. As always, weigh savings while not compromising quality costs money, a lot of money!



May 25, 2023 at 12:33 AM
melcat
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


Imagemaster wrote:
I am being nice too when I say it is basic photography knowledge that the longer the focal-length of a lens, the higher the shutter speed you should use to avoid motion blur from camera/lens movement.


Except it isn’t true. There are cases where some long lens with image stabilisation can be hand held down to a slower shutter speed than some shorter lens without. A lens which is front-heavy is harder to hold stable than one of the same weight and focal length which isn’t. A lens with external zoom is often harder to hand hold than one with the same parameters but internal zoom.

And the slowest speed that anyone can shoot handheld applies to every lens you use.

Also untrue (assuming you meant dividing by the focal length). Consider two photographers, one with weaker lower arms than the other but both with good shoulder strength. Both will find short lenses equally easy to keep steady with the correct technique. But the one with weaker lower arms will find it harder to keep heavy long lenses steady.



May 25, 2023 at 01:30 AM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


Okay, if you want to nitpick, how about I generalize?

A general photography 'rule' to prevent motion blur from camera/lens when shooting with a 500mm lens handheld, you should use a higher shutter speed than if you are shooting handheld with a 50mm lens.

That has only been around for more than 50 years, and still applies today even with image stabilization.

As a general 'rule', if Tom, Dick, and Harry are all shooting with the same 50mm lens on the same camera, one will generally be able to take sharper images at a slower shutter speed than the other two.

Please excuse my generalities.



May 25, 2023 at 09:42 AM
TakesRandomPics
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


rscheffler wrote:
That would be in ideal conditions with good technique and a stationary subject. If you're after birds in flight, then you will want to use as fast a shutter speed an f/11 lens will afford you in the light conditions you work in.

The 600/11 might be a better starting point to hone your long lens technique.


While I love the 800 f/11 depending on bird the AF speed doesn't always work for BiF. The 100-500 in crop mode or with a 1.4x has been more reliable for me. IS doesn't do much for moving subjects, you can try to get a burst but that works much better for stationary or nearly stationary subjects.



May 25, 2023 at 10:28 AM
Z250SA
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


I have both the 800/11 since two years and 600/11 since a few months. Being accustomed to the 800/11 as well as the 100-500, the 600 f/11 is in an other division. It is the same size as the 100-500 but a pound lighter. The 800 f/11 is almost as heavy as the 100-500, but close to 4 inches longer. The difference to the 600/11 is substantial.

The 600/11 feels very light, especially for that long a focal length. It is very easy to handhold. The field of view is not as needle narrow as the 800, but still can be difficult to find the subject, especially small passerines in bushes etc. Takes some practice to master, as with anything bordering to the extreme.

I have used the 800 much more and have found it handholdable down to about 1/100s. But that is my rock solid left. The 600 being both lighter and shorter may be harder to keep steady. But there are a few "on the other hands" regarding handholdability. The image stabilization is none the less surprisingly good for such a cheap lens.

In my opinion the 600 f/11 is a hidden gem. We are so fascinated by the biggest and longest that almost all, myself included, went for the 800. But the 800 is a big beast, very long, though not that heavy. The 600 f/11 is so perfect in so many ways.

The one obvious drawback can be the f/11. There simply has to be rather good light to use it without turning up ISO to noisy levels.

The other main drawback is the rather long closest focus distance of 4,5m. By paying 15 to 20 times more for the 600mm f/4 you get down to 4.2m, which very few paying the high price mention as a drawback. Funny that. The zooms, RF 100-400 and 100-500 get much MUCH closer.



May 25, 2023 at 02:29 PM
melcat
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


grandmas wrote:
I am thinking very seriously about the 600mm. What shutter speed would I need to hand hold the lens?


The specifications PDF for my R3 body says the 600mm f/11 and 800mm f/11 do image stabilisation a bit differently from other RF lenses (meaning those released when the PDF was published).

Normally, for EF lenses with IS but not hybrid IS, this camera uses the optical stablisation in the lens for yaw and pitch, and the in-body stablisation for X–Y stabilisation in the plane and rotation. RF lenses “coordinate” the optical and in-body stablisation so that they work together for pitch and yaw. The 600mm and 800mm f/11 don’t do this coordination, so get the level of image stabilisation most EF lens with image stabilisation would. The image stabilisation on my EF 100–400 f/4.5–5.6 II was very good on the R3, so this effect might not be very big.

Canon claims 5.0 stops of stabilisation for the 600mm f/11, compared to the 6.0 stops they claim in the R3 specs for the RF 100–500mm f/4.5–7.1 using this “coordinated” stabilisation, so, no, not that big.

Assuming a reasonable shutter speed of 1/1000s at 600mm full frame without stabilisation (the rule of thumb is 1/focal length for 35mm film, which was low res), 5 stops of stabilisation means you could hand hold it at 1/30s.



May 26, 2023 at 01:29 AM
Z250SA
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


Image stabilization has to a significant degree taken care of the camera shake. But there is still the movement of the subject. With long lenses, the subject gets rather large and as a consequence tiny amounts of movement will show up in the image. I have used 1/2000s (to get mostly sharp images of BIF) as the minimum exposure speed coming from the 5D4 with 100-400 MkII + 1.4xIII. Especially with 800mm there is all too often signs of movement at 1/3200s even on semi static subjects, like the eye of a swimming grebe. Handheld as always.


May 26, 2023 at 04:22 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


I have found canon’s claims of stabilization stops to be a bit exaggerated. I can hold my gear very steadily and even using breathing techniques on taking the shot at the end of an exhale or inhale, you aren’t getting a good result at 1/30 on that kind of focal length. I suspect the best an average person can expect would be at best one stop faster, or more likely two.

The flip side of this is one isn’t using focal lengths of 400+ to shoot static subject material either, so most of the time, the speeds needed to stop subject motion blur is more than capable to make up for the shooter’s small movements, and a lens could claim 20 stops of stabilization, and it wouldn’t matter. 2-3 stops are all that really matter IMO.



May 26, 2023 at 05:07 AM
melcat
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


I do have a number of sharp shots in the range of 500 to 560mm full frame equivalent at1/60s and even one at 1/30s, all on my old 10Mpx camera with the EF 100–400mm f/4.5–5.6 (+1.4× III). I also have a couple at 504mm and 1/80s on my new 24Mpx camera, but I haven’t had it or my even newer RF mount lens long enough to be in that situation much.

I’ve seen others post bird shots here at FM taken at 1/30s.

Of course the bird has to hold still, but some birds do that. Others, like ducks, don’t. Knowing the right shutter speed to freeze bird action comes with experience.

Except in mode 3, image stablisation might help someone hold a long lens steady even if not necessary given the shutter speed.



May 26, 2023 at 07:01 AM
 


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Imagemaster
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


Taken last night around 7 in forest.




  Canon EOS R6m2    RF100-400mm F5.6-8 IS USM lens    400mm    f/9.5    1/45s    3200 ISO    +0.5 EV  




May 26, 2023 at 07:10 AM
Sy Sez
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


I occasionally check and practice my Tele, hand-holding ability with the Spot AF square aimed at a small, distant object, and see how steady I can control it.

Of course, hand-holding with only your body, and no additional aids is one thing, whereas bracing oneself against a solid object such as a tree, etc., though still hand-holding, is closer to using a "Pod", and hardly comparative.



May 26, 2023 at 08:04 AM
DailyShooter
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


ImageMaster, very nice image, but its a bit soft...if you didn't tell me I might guess that it was hand held...


May 26, 2023 at 09:42 AM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


DailyShooter wrote:
ImageMaster, very nice image, but its a bit soft...if you didn't tell me I might guess that it was hand held...


Of course it is a bit soft. Do you see the ISO combined with the shutter speed.

A slightly soft image is better than no image.



May 26, 2023 at 10:25 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


grandmas wrote:
I am thinking very seriously about the 600mm. What shutter speed would I need to hand hold the lens?


Dustin Abbott mentions 1/40, Ken Rockwell has a chart saying 50% are sharp at 1/30 on both RP & R5.

If you fire off several you may/should be able to go with a slower ss. On static subjects. I get 1/50 on 55 250 STM at 250mm shooting several.

Got really close one time to an owl using 18-135, used 1/8-1/10 or so ss IIRC and got maybe 1 out of 10? But I mean 3 or 4 out of 30 or 40 total is all you need. Wish I could find those easily



May 26, 2023 at 11:49 AM
DailyShooter
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


AmbientMike wrote:
Dustin Abbott mentions 1/40, Ken Rockwell has a chart saying 50% are sharp at 1/30 on both RP & R5.

If you fire off several you may/should be able to go with a slower ss. On static subjects. I get 1/50 on 55 250 STM at 250mm shooting several.

Got really close one time to an owl using 18-135, used 1/8-1/10 or so ss IIRC and got maybe 1 out of 10? But I mean 3 or 4 out of 30 or 40 total is all you need. Wish I could find those easily


You might mitigate your movements at such slow shutter speeds (assuming IS & IBIS) but not the owls...



May 28, 2023 at 09:10 AM
Sy Sez
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


grandmas wrote:
I am thinking very seriously about the 600mm. What shutter speed would I need to hand hold the lens?

Another thing I am wondering about is being able to locate a small bird to focus on. I have trouble finding small birds looking through the viewfinder with 400mm.


No one can advise as to another person's hand-holding ability; that's something only the users can be determined for themselves, however having a solid object to brace oneself against can improve your chances.

As to seeing/viewing small birds/objects at a distance, depending upon the camera, you can setup to switch Iinto Crop Mode for a larger view, albeit within a smaller area of perspective.



May 28, 2023 at 01:39 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


DailyShooter wrote:
You might mitigate your movements at such slow shutter speeds (assuming IS & IBIS) but not the owls...


How often and how many types of owls have you observed? Many owls, herons, bald eagles, etc. can remain still for so long that you can take a shot at 60 seconds.



May 28, 2023 at 02:07 PM
EB-1
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Why not a consumer plastic lens?


I typically photograph perching/nesting birds like owls at moderate ISO with a tripod. It's even possible to bracket focus for DOF control not possible in single shots.

EBH



May 28, 2023 at 02:25 PM
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