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Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!

  
 
bs kite
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p.43 #1 · p.43 #1 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


I have a bit of news. My Z8 shows up this morning. Now the work begins.

I do welcome suggestions from any of you.




Jun 06, 2023 at 06:51 AM
JustShootMe
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p.43 #2 · p.43 #2 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


bs kite wrote:
I have a bit of news. My Z8 shows up this morning. Now the work begins.

I do welcome suggestions from any of you.



I like Henry's videos



congrats on the new camera



Jun 06, 2023 at 07:48 AM
saaketham
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p.43 #3 · p.43 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


bs kite wrote:
I have a bit of news. My Z8 shows up this morning. Now the work begins.


Congrats .. Looking forward to your images here.



Jun 06, 2023 at 08:32 AM
1bwana1
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p.43 #4 · p.43 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




bs kite wrote:
I have a bit of news. My Z8 shows up this morning. Now the work begins.

I do welcome suggestions from any of you.



Congratulations Robert! The new camera day has finally come. May it bring you many years of enjoyable photography. I am looking forward to seeing reports on your adventures.

Steve



Jun 06, 2023 at 08:40 AM
Max Power
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p.43 #5 · p.43 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


bs kite wrote:
I have a bit of news. My Z8 shows up this morning. Now the work begins.

I do welcome suggestions from any of you.



Charge the battery.



Jun 06, 2023 at 08:53 AM
bs kite
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p.43 #6 · p.43 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


saaketham wrote:
Congrats .. Looking forward to your images here.


Thank you.




Jun 06, 2023 at 08:58 AM
bs kite
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p.43 #7 · p.43 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


1bwana1 wrote:
Congratulations Robert! The new camera day has finally come. May it bring you many years of enjoyable photography. I am looking forward to seeing reports on your adventures.

Steve


Thank you




Jun 06, 2023 at 08:58 AM
bs kite
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p.43 #8 · p.43 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


JustShootMe wrote:
I like Henry's videos



congrats on the new camera


Thank you

While I wait, I have been going through the tedium of the Z8 Reference Guide. I will look at Hudson's setup guide again, right now.




Jun 06, 2023 at 09:03 AM
dcisive
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p.43 #9 · p.43 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


bs kite wrote:
Just hide him.

That's what I've done too.

He's trouble.



I hope you're not referring to ME. I simply wanted to pass on a statement a friend who happens to be a sensor engineer stated. I rather like the idea when a focus system is competent enough you don't have to get into menus to get them to work personally. But what has been inferred by some reviewers is the Nikon approach supposedly provides the user more "control" over the process. I suppose that may be true want it or not. Several reviewers I watched on Youtube lately have changed their mind regarding the capabilities of the Z9/Z8 autofocus reliability stating they now miss near NONE of their shots and one even stated it was the BEST to date now exceeding his results with Canon and Sony. Forgive me if somehow it rubbed you the wrong way.



Jun 06, 2023 at 11:51 AM
bs kite
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p.43 #10 · p.43 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


dcisive wrote:
I hope you're not referring to ME. I simply wanted to pass on a statement a friend who happens to be a sensor engineer stated. I rather like the idea when a focus system is competent enough you don't have to get into menus to get them to work personally. But what has been inferred by some reviewers is the Nikon approach supposedly provides the user more "control" over the process. I suppose that may be true want it or not. Several reviewers I watched on Youtube lately have changed their mind regarding the capabilities of the Z9/Z8 autofocus reliability
...Show more

Oh no.... I was not referring to you at all. I apologize for the confusion. I should have clarified that.

I was commenting *to* you, encouraging/asking you to just hide duncang, so to avoid any haggling.






Jun 06, 2023 at 01:18 PM
 


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ilkka_nissila
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p.43 #11 · p.43 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


>A single bum unit just isn’t a factor unless a bunch of others also join in to complain that they too experienced the issues you did.

My point was really that some people claim a product is the best quality ever but don't actually have any data, it's their feeling and personal experience which they generalize.

My D850 didn't take 2 years to develop a bad power circuit, it happened in weeks from mounting the grip the first time and the repair shop already knew what the fault was (a circuit inside the camera which takes the power from the vertical grip and regulates it for the camera) because they had seen this problem before. This was in May 2018. Since the service people in a small country were familiar with the problem in a new camera model, it was clearly not an isolated case. Even if it had been just my camera and grip, I would still consider it a quality problem.

In my experience the single-digit Nikons have better tactile response in many of the controls especially the multi-function pad. I have several of both types of cameras and it's a different implementation, and not a statistical anomaly. The D6, D5 etc. multicontroller resists being depressed and once the force is great enough, it goes in and you can feel it in the finger when the action has been taken in by the camera. On the Z8, D850 etc the multi-controller doesn't give a clear indication of when it has been pressed (there is no sudden drop in resistance) and it's harder to know how many steps the focus area has moved, for example, by touch, without looking. I find this very irritating and an example of poor mechanical design. With the single-digit bodies it is easier to control the camera by feel rather than combining motor action with vision which is necessary to know what is happeing with the D850 and similar cameras when using the multi-controller.

In my opinion these are real factors that influence how easy it is to use a camera when using it every day. When someone uses a camera only occasionally, they might not care about these things. (Sometimes I wonder if the people posting actually do take pictures or not.)

With regards to Toyota, if there is a fault on one car that causes the death of its passengers, would you then consider it a quality problem or just the cost of doing business? Where does a fault then become significant enough to be a QC issue?

If we're not allowed to voice our experiences (due to the forum members behaving like fans in a football match), how would people know if a problem is widespread or not?



Jun 06, 2023 at 02:00 PM
JustShootMe
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p.43 #12 · p.43 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


ilkka_nissila wrote:
>A single bum unit just isn’t a factor unless a bunch of others also join in to complain that they too experienced the issues you did.

My point was really that some people claim a product is the best quality ever but don't actually have any data, it's their feeling and personal experience which they generalize.

My D850 didn't take 2 years to develop a bad power circuit, it happened in weeks from mounting the grip the first time and the repair shop already knew what the fault was (a circuit inside the camera which takes the power from the vertical
...Show more

(there is no sudden drop in resistance) and it's harder to know how many steps the focus area has moved, for example, by touch, without looking.

If you aren't looking at the buttons aren't you looking through viewfinder ? This doesn't make sense , you would see it move if you're not paying attention to how many presses you make.

No product is perfect, they all have issues if used hard enough .. remember the first few Sony A7/A7R models.. have you seen one of those displays over time ?



Jun 06, 2023 at 02:29 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.43 #13 · p.43 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


JustShootMe wrote:
If you aren't looking at the buttons aren't you looking through viewfinder ? This doesn't make sense , you would see it move if you're not paying attention to how many presses you make.


On the D850 I can't count how many presses I've made, since there is no clear and consistent tactile or audible feedback. I could count how many presses I've tried to make, but the camera would have a different idea of the count and do its own thing. I may have to go back if I overshoot the point I'm aiming for (once pressed for a longer time it goes into continuous movement). The squeaking sound from the controller also makes it harder because the sound happens at multiple different points of pressing the control, and my mind assumes if there is a sound then it means the button was depressed, and when the sound is not consistent with the camera's actions, then it just doesn't help in reaching the desired point.

I find that motor action with tactile feedback (when it is well-implemented) is faster and requires less conscious thought than motor action guided only by visual feedback.



Jun 06, 2023 at 04:18 PM
bernardl
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p.43 #14 · p.43 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


dcisive wrote:
Several reviewers I watched on Youtube lately have changed their mind regarding the capabilities of the Z9/Z8 autofocus reliability stating they now miss near NONE of their shots and one even stated it was the BEST to date now exceeding his results with Canon and Sony. Forgive me if somehow it rubbed you the wrong way.


Actually DPreview already concluded more than one year ago that the Z9 AF with firmware 1.0 was better than a1 and R3.

And the Z9 is now way better... and the Z8 even better... while the Sony and Canon have apparently not been improved significantly.

So, leaving aside some corner scenarios where the a1 or the R3 may be superior, the overall AF performance of the Nikon has been seen for more than a year as the overall leader. I am aware that there is a huge amount of web noise that claims otherwise, but that is irrelevant to the reality of things.

Cheers,
Bernard





Jun 06, 2023 at 10:45 PM
dcisive
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p.43 #15 · p.43 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


bernardl wrote:
Actually DPreview already concluded more than one year ago that the Z9 AF with firmware 1.0 was better than a1 and R3.

And the Z9 is now way better... and the Z8 even better... while the Sony and Canon have apparently not been improved significantly.

So, leaving aside some corner scenarios where the a1 or the R3 may be superior, the overall AF performance of the Nikon has been seen for more than a year as the overall leader. I am aware that there is a huge amount of web noise that claims otherwise, but that is irrelevant to the reality of
...Show more

and the Z8 even better

Now now lets not start outrageous rumors. The Z8 has exactly the same focus firmware capabilities (other than the HEIF and Airplane focus) as the Z9. There is little doubt the next firmware update on the Z9 will bring it right up to date with those features. I've already spoken to several Z8 owners that have Z9's and they said they are still identical in focus performance.



Jun 06, 2023 at 10:56 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.43 #16 · p.43 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


dcisive wrote:
I rather like the idea when a focus system is competent enough you don't have to get into menus to get them to work personally.


I don't think this is realistic given that in many scenarios there are multiple equally likely subjects that can be focused on. I photograph people at events a lot, and in most images there are multiple people with faces at least somewhat towards the camera. I believe Sony ZV-E1 does handle this situation in a reasonable way by identifying the subjects in the frame and if they are multiple and at different distances, it can stop down automatically to get them into the depth of field. But that's mainly a video camera, and the resolution requirements for stills for having all the people within the depth of field could lead to very small apertures and potentially noisy results, whereas in typical video resolutions this is still manageable at the level of requirement for online and social media publication, not to mention also for TV - why not. Although we nowadays have high-resolution video as option, I think most people still deliver the final result in FullHD and not even 4K let alone 8K. So for depth of field requirements, 2K may be an appropriate standard to aim for in video, and of course slow shutter speeds are used so aiming for all-subjects-encompassing DOF is more realistic for video than stills where people often expect to see things in high resolution and inspect them in detail. However, this level of automation is dependent on the tool and may not always work correctly. I think the ZV-E1 is mainly intended to help a single person cover both the roles of being the subject or one of the subjects as well as operating the camera.

For many still photography scenarios, I am aiming for the smoothest tones and have barely enough depth of field to cover one person, because I like to maintain reasonably low ISO and clear definition of a main subject, even when multiple people interact, I tend to want to select one for the best focus. In this case to achieve my intended result, I have to help the camera in focusing on the right person. With the Nikon D6, Z9, and Z8, one can define a rectangular area which has the size, shape and position of one's choosing, and then within that area, the camera will focus on a face or eye. In the D6's case it is most likely the closest face or eye, but the other two probably prioritise the clarity with which they can identify it as a face or eye, rather than always being the closest to the camera within the selected region. I have to spend more time using the Z8 to figure out what it's doing but at least in the Z6II's wide area with face/eye detection, it would sometimes select a background face or eye, and focus on that, even when there are eyes closer to the camera, and I was not really fully able to control the process with the Z6II because the area was of fixed size and shape. With the Z8, I can define the region for the search with a lot of control and if necessary, override it with single point or my favorite which is 9-point dynamic area (I use that because with single point, especially on mirrorless, there is a nonzero probability that it won't land on vertical detail and starts hunting the camera, whereas with 9-point dynamic the chances that it finds adequate detail within the area is very high in my experience, so it's more reliable). In the D6 all points are cross-type so the single point is more powerful (even in a backlit scenario), but of course, it is not as precise in focusing on the eye as the Z8 is with subject-detection. So, for me the custom wide area options are key to successful use of the camera and I'm very happy with the way the Z8 works in this mode. Also they've made it very easy to use the D6 and Z8 (or Z9) interchangeably for continuity of operation and ease of adaptation of the new technology. For animals the D6 doesn't offer subject- or eye-detection so for those subjects, it is less similar to Z8/Z9, of course, but for a person who mostly photographs people with it, they can be used almost interchangeably.

One migth still propose that if I had access to a completely reliable auto-area mode that that's what I would use, but I would argue that I would not, since I've grown with having control over the subject selection and it would very hard and disappointing to give that up. When there are multiple subjects, the camera in auto area often varies the one it has selected for focusing, so by taking a series of photos, it will include instances of each potential subject in focus, probably this is intentional by the system's designers, but I find that often what the camera has focused on isn't quite as precisely in focus as when using the more restricted modes. And I build the composition of multiple people around one of them being the one in focus and the others contributing to the conversation but not quite with equal importance to the photo. Would I stop down the lens to include all subjects in focus? In some compositions I do that, especially when working with wide angles, but still it's a part of my style that I tend to want to communicate who the main subject is via focus.

If the camera does everything from subject selection, depth of field adjustment, and focusing, what creative input is left to the photographer? The ZV-E1 will even crop the image to achieve optimal framing of the subjects (according to the algorithm). For me having that creative control of selective focus and composition are very much a part which I enjoy in photography.

The only scenarios where I think it would be truly useful to use auto-area are (1) when handing the camera out to someone else to take a photo, e.g. with the camera owner included in a group, for example, in which case only a fully automated mode would work due to the lack of familiarity of the person holding the camera in using the camera controls, or (2) when the subject is moving so fast that there is no time to move focus areas around or adjust them. However, neither scenario is typical of my photography. I want the subject in a specific part of the frame and I want to exercise control over how the other parts appear as part of the picture. I understand that for the bird-in-flight photographers out here, the subject can start out as a small part of the frame even out of necessity so that it can be held within the frame, and then the composition is set by cropping afterwards. A highly functional auto-area AF would be useful for this, no doubt. But this is just one type of photo out of infinite possibilities and one of the few situations where often focal length is way shorter than would be needed to control the composition in the camera. For my subjects, people especially, cropping is unusual and when it is applied, it is usually quite minor refinement. Why would I not take advantage of the megapixels to crop as I please? Because I want to maximize the tonal smoothness and color fidelity and this requires using the whole sensor area or nearly all of it. Also because I want the persons in the frame to be interacting with each other, as this is very much part of the interest that I have in photographing people, and in order to still be able to time shots based on emotion, I need to see fine details of their faces at the same time. If I crop a lot in post, I won't have the same view of the subject's face when composing in camera. So minimal cropping for me, in most cases, and when framing the shot in camera, I want to control focus as part of the composition and storytelling. Humans when they look at the scene, the sharp vision is only in a narrow area, and although the periphery can usually be still within the depth of field, it is kind of blurry. A shallow depth of field shot in a way mimics this characteristic of human vision, although the implementation is different, still from a story-telling perspective, the impact is similar. This is the person I want the viewer to look at.

Of course, when it is useful for the purposes of the image, I will stop down the lens, to achieve more of a parity among the subjects, but often this is a lot harder to do as background distractions become a part of the picture as well, so there is a balance to the use of selective focus. It is interesting that in movies, all-encompassing depth of field is used a lot of the time, despite the claims of cinematic video requiring shallow depth of field. I guess this could be a marketing effort to sell expensive fast aperture lenses and large sensors, even if it is not founded in cinematic tradition in reality. However, I'm hooked on the use of shallow depth of field because it allows me to be a bit more care-free with regards to monitoring the background, and basically only use deep depth of field when I can have a degree of control over the background (such as in studio images, or in formal portraits) and ensure there are no distracting elements. For the more documentary and candid images I tend to clean up the backgrounds by the use of moderately shallow depth of field, but I still want enough of the secondary subjects to be recognizable so that people can see who the main subject is interacting with etc.

Anyway, long story short, I am among those who finds the photographer having control of where the subject is in the frame and telling the camera this information for assisting in recognizing the subject that can work for my composition crucial for my photography. If there was the choice of only auto area, or single point, I'd probably be very unhappy with the downgrade but use the single point every time. As things are now, it's between custom wide area with subject detection and 9-point dynamic, that are the only two modes I use on the Z8.


But what has been inferred by some reviewers is the Nikon approach supposedly provides the user more "control" over the process. I suppose that may be true want it or not. Several reviewers I watched on Youtube lately have changed their mind regarding the capabilities of the Z9/Z8 autofocus reliability stating they now miss near NONE of their shots and one even stated it was the BEST to date now exceeding his results with Canon and Sony.


I think this is quite realistic in many types of photography, that one would be hard pressed to find even a single image that is misfocused among hundreds or thousands. I've read estimates that in wildlife action, 90% are typically in focus with the Z9, this is at least one or two orders of magnitude worse than I got when photographing a wedding reception with the Z8. However, this was likely because I used focusing methods which I was very familiar with based on several years of using earlier cameras with similar modes, and there was not much what constitutes fast action, at worst people were walking towards the camera. Nonetheless this scenario of people approaching the camera in backlight was difficult to get 100% perfect results of, even just 10 years ago. Now, it is very easy, assuming that one uses the appropriate focus area modes which give enough freedom for the camera to identify the correct subject even if moving, but not excess freedom to mistake something else as a subject. For example if I have people walking towards the camera in backlight, I know at what height they are in the final composition. Why would I make it harder for the camera to identify the subjects and focus by not telling the camera at all where the subject is within the frame? If giving the whole frame area as free game for focusing, then the camera has to work on a lot more data and it might find something in the background that has really strong vertical lines (such as tall grass) whereas the human faces are backlit and not very bright at all. Those tall grasses would be very attractive to the phase-detection sensors and at least some shots would come out focused on the grass for sure. By giving the correct height as information to the camera, it has no trouble at all producing 100% in focus images, as the faces are at a height and distance from background at that height in the frame that it is easy for the camera to identify the correct subject. Previously I got as bad as 5% in focus with the Z6II when photographing deer in similar backlit conditions, with the tall grass lit strongly by the sun being the preferred focus of the camera. With the Z8, because I could limit the search region to a horizontal bar, it would produce images where all frames are correctly focused on the subjects even though lighting conditions and surroundings were similar. Nikon issued a firmware update which made the auto area on the Z6II/Z7II weight more the center of the frame, and I think this is because of scenarios like I described. I never tried this because I just am not interested in letting the camera have so much control over the subjects and focus.

One might then ask, what about moments that one misses by having to fiddle with adjusting the custom areas to the subject? In my experience, given that the camera allows the memorizing of separate areas for horizontal and vertical compositions, the adjustment takes very little time and does not really distract from making useful images, once the photographer is familiar with the method.

Of course, if another system is more automatic and gives desired results, it's the photographer's choice to use what they want. Personally I couldn't be happier with the more customizable options on the Z8 and other Nikons that feature this (the D6 and Z9) and I hope they offer these options also to lower-end camera models in the future, such as the Z7 III or Z6 III. But I have this fear that Nikon want to motivate as many people as possible to purchase the Z8 or Z9, and will restrict these modes from the mid-tier camera models. This would be, in my opinion, Nikon shooting themselves in the foot, as without these modes, people will likely keep complaining about Nikon Z AF, and the most of the interest among enthusiast and even for most professional photographers is really in cameras in the 2000€-3000€ price class and not these high-end models which are too expensive for most potential users. In Europe the Z8 is a lot more expensive than in the US, and so are CFexpress memory cards.



Jun 07, 2023 at 05:16 AM
sjms
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p.43 #17 · p.43 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


dcisive wrote:
and the Z8 even better

Now now lets not start outrageous rumors. The Z8 has exactly the same focus firmware capabilities (other than the HEIF and Airplane focus) as the Z9. There is little doubt the next firmware update on the Z9 will bring it right up to date with those features. I've already spoken to several Z8 owners that have Z9's and they said they are still identical in focus performance.


i have used both and agree they are AF equivalents. still i feel the Z9 is just a wee bit more capable overall. along with its weighty persona.

but then there is that dynamic discussion ability that has occurred



Jun 07, 2023 at 07:06 AM
RoamingScott
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p.43 #18 · p.43 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


I haven’t found a use case where the Z8 is obviously better at AF than the Z9. Found plenty of use cases where the Z8 is easier to handle, allowing for more possibilities though!


Jun 07, 2023 at 08:06 AM
arbitrage
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p.43 #19 · p.43 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


I would very much appreciate if people citing reviews and YT videos comparing Z9 AF to other cameras would provide links to those reviews and videos.

I see a couple comments on this page alone saying reviews placing the Z9 above A1/R3 even back on 1.0FW. I see mention of some recent YT vids where the presenter has changed their mind and is now placing Z9 above the other cameras.

I'm always interested to see what others found compared to what I've found having owned all these cameras (Z9, A1, R5, R3). But I'd like to see the full context of the videos and/or written reviews. For example did they actually have all the cameras on hand at the same time or are they going off of memory from a review they did a year ago? What exactly are the subjects they are testing? Human portraits, sports (which ones), bird on a stick, BIF?

Please, pretty please, provide the links. TYVM.



Jun 07, 2023 at 09:06 AM
sjms
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p.43 #20 · p.43 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


i tried to get them to do that for years here. even tried the please hope you get the majority to do it.


Jun 07, 2023 at 09:31 AM
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