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Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Eric214
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p.20 #1 · p.20 #1 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

ChrisMak wrote:
It does not matter to me, but I cannot make much sense of how you present the comparison, and how you support that with incorrect info.

Personally, I would dig a bit deeper to make sure I have at least the facts right before I make my statement.
I don't know either how you got to the conclusion that the A1 has worse rolling shutter than the Z9 or fuji XH2S, the latter being a crop camera on top of that, but it would be much more convincing if it were backed up with correct data.

The Nikon Z9's sensor readout is roughly 25-30% faster than the Sony A1's sensor. Hence the Z9 has no rolling shutter and that can't be said for the A1 which has noticable rolling shutter (unless shooting in mechanical shutter) with fast panning and fast moving objects like a baseball or bat/golf club swing

Jun 03, 2023 at 02:52 PM

ChrisMak
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p.20 #2 · p.20 #2 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Eric214 wrote:
The Nikon Z9's sensor readout is roughly 25-30% faster than the Sony A1's sensor. Hence the Z9 has no rolling shutter and that can't be said for the A1 which has noticable rolling shutter (unless shooting in mechanical shutter) with fast panning and fast moving objects like a baseball or bat/golf club swing

We must somehow have different sources for our information.
To my knowledge the A1 readout speed has been established at 1/250-1/260 sec for 50 mp, the Z9 readout speed at 1/270 for 45.70 mp.
That is equal in my book. I am not sure where the difference is originating...

Unless video specs are causing confusion

Jun 03, 2023 at 03:05 PM

sjms
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p.20 #3 · p.20 #3 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

with all this "mine's better" stuff flailing about it will come down to who and how they handle the tools invested in. both cameras are capable of producing excellent images. but in the end, it's the user. and if they know what they're doing there will be good images produced.

Jun 03, 2023 at 03:09 PM

1bwana1
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p.20 #4 · p.20 #4 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Eric214 wrote:
The Nikon Z9's sensor readout is roughly 25-30% faster than the Sony A1's sensor. Hence the Z9 has no rolling shutter and that can't be said for the A1 which has noticable rolling shutter (unless shooting in mechanical shutter) with fast panning and fast moving objects like a baseball or bat/golf club swing

This is absolutely untrue. 99%+ of my shooting with the A1 has been with electronic shutter. Often very fast moving subjects including Hummingbird wings. I have never had rolling shutter issues. The sensor scan speed of the A1/Z9/Z8 is basically .equal. I really don't know where this confusion is coming from, except unknowledgeable posters like this one.

Jun 03, 2023 at 03:19 PM

Eric214
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p.20 #5 · p.20 #5 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

1bwana1 wrote:
This is absolutely untrue. 99%+ of my shooting with the A1 has been with electronic shutter. Often very fast moving subjects including Hummingbird wings. I have never had rolling shutter issues. The sensor scan speed of the A1/Z9/Z8 is basically .equal. I really don't know where this confusion is coming from, except unknowledgeable posters like this one.

The Nikon Z9 sensor readout speed is something like 3.65ms and the A1 was something like 4ms. This is what I remember from either the announcement of the Z9 or shortly after.

No confusion. It's what was reported for the reason that Nikon was able to omit the shutter in the Z9

Jun 03, 2023 at 04:43 PM

lukemeup
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p.20 #6 · p.20 #6 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

I think this thread has ran its course. Maybe go take some photos, everyone?

Jun 03, 2023 at 04:45 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.20 #7 · p.20 #7 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

ChrisMak wrote:
We must somehow have different sources for our information.
To my knowledge the A1 readout speed has been established at 1/250-1/260 sec for 50 mp, the Z9 readout speed at 1/270 for 45.70 mp.
That is equal in my book. I am not sure where the difference is originating...

Unless video specs are causing confusion

Jim Kasson measured the Z9 sensor scan speed and reports the results in his blog. He got 1/270 for the Z9,

https://blog.kasson.com/z9/how-fast-is-the-z9-shutter/

He didn't test the A1, but reports for the A1 are between 1/240 and 1/260

https://fstoppers.com/originals/why-sony-a1-actually-shows-how-canon-winning-mirrorless-game-546294

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2021/02/27/the-sony-stacked-sensor-in-the-a1-isnt-being-pushed-to-its-limits/#:~:text=The%20Sony%20stacked%20sensor%20in%20the%20a1%20has%20a,of%20250fps%20at%2014%20bits.

https://www.popphoto.com/reviews/sony-a1-review/

So whichever of those numbers you prefer, the A1 is pretty close to the Z8/Z9

Edited on Jun 03, 2023 at 05:16 PM · View previous versions

Jun 03, 2023 at 05:01 PM

1bwana1
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p.20 #8 · p.20 #8 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Eric214 wrote:
The Nikon Z9 sensor readout speed is something like 3.65ms and the A1 was something like 4ms. This is what I remember from either the announcement of the Z9 or shortly after.

No confusion. It's what was reported for the reason that Nikon was able to omit the shutter in the Z9

Being able to omit the mechanical shutter has been possible since the introduction of the A9 way back in 2017. These stacked sensor cameras are all mechanical shutter optional. Most people almost never use their mechanical shutter, many never have .

This capability has been improved on through the years with the ability to tune the ES to avoid banding, and get high flash sync speeds. Nikon didn't have these capabilities on release of the Z9 so needed to add them through firmware updates to match the other "shutter optional" cameras, and avoid these problems.

What Nikon is touting as an innovation in removing the mechanical shutter was neither new, nor a benefit. It was a cost saving measure. Innovations should advance the state of the art, and add capabilities. Nikon's deletion of a mechanical shutter did neither. In fact in rare side cases it removed functionality. The sensor protection shutter is nothing new either. Even low tech Leica has had this feature in its mirrorless M series cameras since around 2006.

Edited on Jun 03, 2023 at 08:08 PM · View previous versions

Jun 03, 2023 at 05:05 PM

1bwana1
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p.20 #9 · p.20 #9 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

lukemeup wrote:
I think this thread has ran its course. Maybe go take some photos, everyone?

Thanks. I take photos almost every day. Post a few most days as well.

Jun 03, 2023 at 05:07 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.20 #10 · p.20 #10 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

1bwana1 wrote:
Being able to omit the mechanical shutter has been possible since the introduction of the A9 way back in 2017. These stacked sensor cameras are all mechanical shutter optional. Most people almost never use their mechanical shutter, many never have This capability has been improved on through the years with the ability to tune the ES to avoid banding, and get high flash sync speeds. Nikon didn't have these capabilities on release of the Z9 so needed to add them through firmware updates to match the other "shutter optional" cameras, and avoid these problems.

What Nikon is touting as an innovation...Show more →

Steve, I mostly agree but the 1/160 sensor scan speed wouldn't really let you go to a electronic only shutter because that would only allow a pretty slow flash sync speed. IMO, the A9/A9II needed a mechanical shutter for flash. The A1 could have had an electronic only shutter, but Sony decided to add higher flash sync speed and they kept the mechanical shutter to allow that.

Edited on Jun 03, 2023 at 06:04 PM · View previous versions

Jun 03, 2023 at 05:19 PM

duncang
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p.20 #11 · p.20 #11 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Jun 03, 2023 at 05:36 PM

duncang
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p.20 #12 · p.20 #12 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

amci4 wrote:
Relax, I just did a quick search and that was the only one I found on short notice. It wasn’t intentional, but I do know the Sony Rolling shutter is not as good as the other two, so it made sense to me that it would be slower. It wasn’t intentional as and you will be okay.

"but I do know that Sony rolling shutter is not as good as the other two" - there result of another quick search perhaps ?

Jun 03, 2023 at 05:44 PM

NonDecaf
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p.20 #13 · p.20 #13 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

snapsy wrote:
What Tony's experiment demonstrated was that the Z's wider throat allows wider angles of incident light to reach the sensor. Notice that the F-Mount graph (D810) only starts at around 60 degrees vs 45 degrees on the Z.

As per "Just Tony", the measurements were taken from areas of the sensor that weren't affected by the mechanical difference between the mounts.

snapsy wrote:
That does not demonstrate how the sensors relative full factors differ at such angles since only one sensor is represented, and what's not measured is potential angles with an actual mounted lens that isn't directing light at the laser's 40 feet.

If as you say the Z7 pixels were designed to discard wider incident angles compared to other BSI sensors, then Nikon would also design compatible Z lenses with rear elements as close as possible to the sensor and with an optical formula to minimize the wider angles. I'm not sure how using a lens would help, unless you're referring to an experimental lens.

Jun 03, 2023 at 07:04 PM

Eric214
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p.20 #14 · p.20 #14 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

duncang wrote:
And how does that translate to 25 - 30% faster ?

It doesn't but I can't recall the exact speed in MS of the A1. It was actually a bit over 4ms. I think it was probably about 20% faster. 3.65 to 4 is 15% but I don't care to be exact. I just remember what was put out there 18 months ago

Jun 03, 2023 at 07:07 PM

snapsy
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p.20 #15 · p.20 #15 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

NonDecaf wrote:
As per "Just Tony", the measurements were taken from areas of the sensor that weren't affected by the mechanical difference between the mounts.

If as you say the Z7 pixels were designed to discard wider incident angles compared to other BSI sensors, then Nikon would also design compatible Z lenses with rear elements as close as possible to the sensor and with an optical formula to minimize the wider angles. I'm not sure how using a lens would help, unless you're referring to an experimental lens.

He said the F-Mount cutoff light below 60 degrees while Z allowed it to 45 degrees. That's reflected in his light acceptance graph of the post, which shows 45-60 degree data only for the Z and none for the F-Mount.

I wouldn't expect Nikon to tailor its lens design for any particular model/sensor within the system.

Jun 03, 2023 at 07:25 PM

arbitrage
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p.20 #16 · p.20 #16 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Eric214 wrote:
It doesn't but I can't recall the exact speed in MS of the A1. It was actually a bit over 4ms. I think it was probably about 20% faster. 3.65 to 4 is 15% but I don't care to be exact. I just remember what was put out there 18 months ago

I guess all of our memories get a bit foggy after 18months...

The Z9 is 3.7ms
The A1 is 3.8ms

It is a 3.8% difference....meaningless. As already mentioned, the A1 could have done away with MS just as the Z9 did but Sony wanted to have a 1/400s (1/500s) Flash sync as a unique selling feature so they kept the MS to allow that.

Jun 03, 2023 at 07:34 PM

NonDecaf
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p.20 #17 · p.20 #17 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

snapsy wrote:
He said the F-Mount cutoff light below 60 degrees while Z allowed it to 45 degrees. That's reflected in his light acceptance graph of the post, which shows 45-60 degree data only for the Z and none for the F-Mount.

I wouldn't expect Nikon to tailor its lens design for any particular model/sensor within the system.

I agree, I wouldn't expect Nikon to do oddball things like blocking light from specific angles, but that wasn't my theory to being with!

I tend to agree with theories that the reduced eFF is a side effect of using pixel isolation structures. I'm guessing the IMX309 design is old enough that you can purchase an industry report that will give you all the details.

Jun 03, 2023 at 11:34 PM

ChrisMak
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p.20 #18 · p.20 #18 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

arbitrage wrote:
I guess all of our memories get a bit foggy after 18months...

The Z9 is 3.7ms
The A1 is 3.8ms

It is a 3.8% difference....meaningless. As already mentioned, the A1 could have done away with MS just as the Z9 did but Sony wanted to have a 1/400s (1/500s) Flash sync as a unique selling feature so they kept the MS to allow that.

It is worth mentioning that the ~4% slower ES in the A1 is not because of a slower sensor or processor, but because of an extra 4.5mp that have to be read out.

You could debate what is worth more to you, but personally I prefer the extra 4.5mp over the ~4% faster ES

Jun 04, 2023 at 02:20 AM

duncang
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p.20 #19 · p.20 #19 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Eric214 wrote:
It doesn't but I can't recall the exact speed in MS of the A1. It was actually a bit over 4ms. I think it was probably about 20% faster. 3.65 to 4 is 15% but I don't care to be exact. I just remember what was put out there 18 months ago

Yes clearly being exact is not your strong suit.

You're still out by a factor of 2. The number you are looking for is approximately 8.75%.

Don't forget that is reading a 50mp sensor, which is 10% bigger than a 45mp sensor. So the Sony may have 10% worse rolling shutter distortion - is that difference even going to be noticeable to anyone?

For panning you are talking about trees at an angle of 10 degrees vs trees at an angle of 11 degrees.

Jun 04, 2023 at 04:31 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.20 #20 · p.20 #20 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

duncang wrote:
Yes clearly being exact is not your strong suit.

You're still out by a factor of 2. The number you are looking for is approximately 8.75%.

Don't forget that is reading a 50mp sensor, which is 10% bigger than a 45mp sensor. So the Sony may have 10% worse rolling shutter distortion - is that difference even going to be noticeable to anyone?

For panning you are talking about trees at an angle of 10 degrees vs trees at an angle of 11 degrees.

While we are being exact let's be clear the A1 and Z9 sensors are the same size. The A1 sensor is not bigger it has smaller pixels that are packed tighter on the same size sensor. Also the difference between 45 and 50 MP in resolution is quite small. When you look at the actual size of the output that becomes even more obvious. The A1 produces full sized images that are 8640 X 5760 pixels. The Z9 full size images that are 8256 X 5204 pixels. Now when we talk about the resolution of the sensor we usually talk about linear resolution which is the change in resolution on just one side, in this case 8640 vs 8256 (or 5760 vs 5204) and that means the increase in linear resolution for the A1 is just 4.6% if you do the math.

I would say that the difference in resolution between the Sony A1 and the Nikon Z9 is also a very small difference. So, for both sensor scan speed where the Z9 has a very small advantage and for resolution where the A1 has a very small advantage there is actually little difference between the cameras. Of course some people might prefer either small advantage, but IMO everyone should keep in mind that the differences here for both sensor scan speed and resolution are small and in almost all instances won't make a practical difference.

Jun 04, 2023 at 04:52 AM

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