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Monochrome?

  
 
RoamingScott
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Monochrome?


This thread, man


May 05, 2023 at 07:27 AM
SiMuMe
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Monochrome?


Potential was there


May 05, 2023 at 07:34 AM
sjms
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Monochrome?


RoamingScott wrote:
This thread, man


and we all participated in it



May 05, 2023 at 07:59 AM
runamuck
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Monochrome?


So it is not native, but simulated. Thanx!!!


May 05, 2023 at 04:05 PM
sjms
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Monochrome?


If you want to use the idea of a "simulation" you must accept that all images be it color or monochrome are simulations of reality and that is true. Remember all images can be made to please from color to shades of gray. The term "native" is irrelevant.

Edited on May 06, 2023 at 04:57 AM · View previous versions



May 05, 2023 at 08:00 PM
Eye-level
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Monochrome?


As I've heard said before...it's not that engineers haven't wanted to make a dedicated monochrome camera. The bean counters said no. Any third party is probably smoke and mirrors.


May 05, 2023 at 08:04 PM
AdaptedLenses
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Monochrome?


The B&W also carry as a profile into Adobe.

glassartist wrote:
My Z7 has a monochrome picture control- as does my Z6 and Zfc. The online Z7II lists a monochrome picture control
here as does the online manual for the D800. All of these only apply to jpegs, of course.

To be sure none of these controls are the same as what maximax.com does when they modify the sensor.

I think we are all just a bit flummoxed that you haven't seen this before.




May 05, 2023 at 08:16 PM
AdaptedLenses
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Monochrome?


Why is 3rd party smoke and mirrors?

Eye-level wrote:
As I've heard said before...it's not that engineers haven't wanted to make a dedicated monochrome camera. The bean counters said no. Any third party is probably smoke and mirrors.




May 05, 2023 at 08:19 PM
 


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glassartist
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Monochrome?


AdaptedLenses wrote:
The B&W also carry as a profile into Adobe.


Yes. As does all the other profiles. I believe it is 'best guess' though unless they license it from Nikon?



May 05, 2023 at 09:05 PM
runamuck
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Monochrome?


AdaptedLenses wrote:
Why is 3rd party smoke and mirrors?



Because chips are Bayer RGB. To design a monochrome sensor would require a lot of money for a limited market. The bean counters see this and start defecating bricks



May 05, 2023 at 10:35 PM
sjms
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Monochrome?


ref: The Leica M10 Monochrom with 40MP
The Leica M10 Monochrom opens the door to a new dimension of black-and-white photography. Equipped with a newly developed image sensor, the camera delivers an extremely high-quality rendition with breathtaking detail resolution.

The absence of a color filter array and exceedingly high sensor resolution of 40 megapixels result in an unprecedented depiction of even the finest details, along with an exceptionally natural-looking sharpness.



May 06, 2023 at 08:10 AM
suteetat
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Monochrome?


https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-test-shows-sony-a7rv-monochrom-version-would-give-1-stop-advantage-and-visible-increased-sharpness/

I just found this comparison between A7r V and Leica Monochrome M11. Both have similar resolution
and looks at comparison, without RGB or Bayer filter, Leica Monochrome does outperform A7r V quite a bit.



May 06, 2023 at 08:33 AM
AdaptedLenses
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Monochrome?


Third party just removes the RGB filter. Chips don’t need to be made that way, but agree economies of scale make it difficult.

runamuck wrote:
Because chips are Bayer RGB. To design a monochrome sensor would require a lot of money for a limited market. The bean counters see this and start defecating bricks




May 06, 2023 at 08:13 PM
harvey steeves
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Monochrome?


I looked at doing a mono conversion to a Nikon body but the cost was quite high. So, I am buying an inexpensive D800 and loading it up with mono picture controls from various sources. If it is like my other Nikon bodies, I should be able to add 6-8 of them. Will it be the same as a mono conversion? No. But I need to save up the money for the conversion and who knows? I may just like what I can get out of the PCs. ($2500 for a Maxmax conversion vs $2500 for my Z 200-600)


May 07, 2023 at 06:44 AM
gear-nut
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Monochrome?


Resurrecting this thread for the purposes of further discussion on monochrome and how to achieve it. Sorry for the length, but I wanted to include my history searching for "good" mono conversions.

My history. Initially I used PhotoShop to do conversions, but the results were never that compelling to my eyes -- not enough depth. Later I tried two different dedicated mono capture digital cameras, a PhaseOne P45 mono and later I had an earlier Sony 45mp mirrorless body IR converted, but don't recall which specific model. Anyway, while both produced very good monochrome images, I never felt either was truly "film-like" which was my ultimate goal -- plus they had limited use of only mono or IR capture. This was also also when I started using CaptureOne as my raw conversion software and it had a decent, but fairly basic B&W tool box. With it I was able to get reasonably decent mono conversion from various color digital cameras. Still not a lot of depth, but a better spectral response than PS and actually almost as good as the dedicated mono cameras. A few years back, I migrated off the F platform to 100% mirrorless, first the Z7 then to the Z7ii when it was released, and eventually to the Z9. Starting out with the Z7, I had set up a dedicated mono jpeg custom setting and took some time to tweak the internal sharpness, contrast, clarity and filtration settings and actually found it equal to or in some cases even superior to anything I hade created before that. I was now pretty happy, but missed the option of heavier post-processing that raw files give over jpegs. C1 continued to improve it's internal B&W tools, and so now I was satisfied enough, I had no need to convert a Z body to IR/mono. Earlier this year, I transitioned to the Z9. And here is where the newest chapter starts.

I have claimed in other threads I feel there is something about the Z9 (8) sensor that allows for more compelling B&W conversions than the non-stacked sensors. Either that or C1's tool got better at it in the last release, IDK. Anyway, here are a series of example images I wanted to post for discussion -- I am open to honest C&C as I'm wanting to know if others see what I see or not -- I may just be getting complacent with my conversions - ??

All these are from the same Z9 raw file converted in C1 to my normal "color" standard, then I apply custom "styles" I have built in C1 specifically for mono conversions. More on C1: it has a very robust B&W tool that has primary and secondary color response sliders, a split-toning module, 5 or 6 film film grain types with size and impact sliders, and of course then the curve tool to best replicate the response of film. In this tool I have built three separate mono styles: the first is my goto standard color response pack, next is an Acros color response I built from a scan of an Acros shot of a McBeth CC and matched the tonal values to each main patch, then fit the contrast curve to the grayscale patches; and finally a "Film Noir" style to render that particular effect -- obviously the color image I chose to show these different conversions is not ideal for the noir style, but I include it just to show how it renders; I do use this style for many of my nighttime street shots.

Enough blabber, here are the images for comparison:



























Nov 10, 2023 at 11:28 AM
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