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Archive 2023 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8

  
 
Ripolini
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


One topic two/three questions

If I'm not wrong I read somewhere that VM and E versions of the Voigtlander 21/3.5 Color-Skopar share the same optics (I remember a thread indicating which VM lenses could be used safely on Sony bodies. Could you please provide the link?); the E-mount version is not tweaked for the thicker sensor stack. If this is correct, I could use the VM version on my Z6 without sacrificing corner sharpness. I could even use the Voigtlander M-Z close focus adapter for particular perspectives.

Finally how do compare the Voigt 21/3.5 Color-Skopar and the Zeiss ZF.2 21/2.8? Is the former as good? I would love saving weight when carrying my Z6.
TIA.
Cheers,
Riccardo



Apr 29, 2023 at 05:43 AM
ocean2059
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


This may be the link that you are looking for: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1566500.




Apr 29, 2023 at 07:17 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Although I use it with great success on my M10 and M11, I found the VM version of this lens unacceptable on my A1. Really bad edges and corners. I have not tried the E-Mount version.

Edited on Apr 29, 2023 at 10:58 AM · View previous versions



Apr 29, 2023 at 08:07 AM
mark1958
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


I have an E mount version of the Voigt 21mm 3.5. I have not used it in a long time and in fact probably not since the A7RIII days but next week when I am home can take a few shots if you like on the A7RIV or V


Apr 29, 2023 at 10:32 AM
rscheffler
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Ripolini wrote:
One topic two/three questions

If I'm not wrong I read somewhere that VM and E versions of the Voigtlander 21/3.5 Color-Skopar share the same optics (I remember a thread indicating which VM lenses could be used safely on Sony bodies. Could you please provide the link?)


I believe you may be thinking of Fred's reply to your question back in December here, but Steve (1bwana1) appears to disagree with this stating his VM21/3.5 does not perform well on his Sony.

Wondering if another option would be the Zeiss 21 Loxia adapted from FE to Nikon Z? If indeed there's a performance difference between the Sony version of the Voigtlander 21/3.5 and the VM version, then adapting the FE version to Nikon Z might be preferable if you'd rather go with it than Zeiss options.

In any case, reviews of the Voigtlander indicate that while it's a good lens, other lenses, such as the Leica 21/3.4 SEM (when used on Leica) or the Zeiss Loxia (when used on Sony) outperform it for across-frame sharpness.



Apr 29, 2023 at 11:19 AM
Ripolini
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


rscheffler wrote:
I believe you may be thinking of Fred's reply to your question back in December here


Yes, thank you!!


rscheffler wrote:
Steve (1bwana1) appears to disagree with this stating his VM21/3.5 does not perform well on his Sony.


Yes; could it depend on sample variation
We have to admit that the sensor of Steve's camera (A1) is very demanding.



Apr 30, 2023 at 12:43 PM
Malabito
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


I have the 21mm f3.5 vm version, mine works great on a leica sl2s, not sure if that's of any help, i can post samples if you need.


Apr 30, 2023 at 01:58 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


rscheffler wrote:
I believe you may be thinking of Fred's reply to your question back in December here, but Steve (1bwana1) appears to disagree with this stating his VM21/3.5 does not perform well on his Sony.

Wondering if another option would be the Zeiss 21 Loxia adapted from FE to Nikon Z? If indeed there's a performance difference between the Sony version of the Voigtlander 21/3.5 and the VM version, then adapting the FE version to Nikon Z might be preferable if you'd rather go with it than Zeiss options.

In any case, reviews of the Voigtlander indicate that while it's a good lens,
...Show more

Wait! I looked in my lens locker and what do you know I do have the E-Mount version. I forgot I bought it. I have just never seriously used it since I got my M cameras.

So, I can do a side by side test on my A1 of both the E-Mount and VM Mount Adapted versions. I don't have the time or patience to do all the different tests Fred does. But let me know What aperture, and distance you guys want me to do the comparison at. I will post the test images here in this thread.



Apr 30, 2023 at 02:08 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Steve, I'd think just a basic diagonal composition of a fairly detailed horizon at infinity (or since it's a 21, something kind of far away, but doesn't have to be true infinity), wide open and maybe f/5.6 and f/8? Full resolution jpegs in a folder on Google Drive, Dropbox, or something similar to download would be good, rather than needing to post crops here. Whatever is easiest.


Apr 30, 2023 at 04:55 PM
Ripolini
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Thanks Steve.
I second @rscheffler suggestions.



May 01, 2023 at 04:33 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


OK guys I will try and do the test shots in the next few days. Not sure where I can post them yet.

In the meantime here is a hand held image I shot on my M10-P (where it is meant to be shot) earlier this year. This kind of image is why I have this lens tiny pocketable lens. Interior shots, wide city shots, and some landscapes. Especially in my beloved Italy.

On my leicas even wide open in poor light, there is little vignetting or distortion, and a nice sharp image. Very little editing in this image. Just LR, including a touch of the new noise reduction.





Leica M10-P, VM 21mm Color-Skopar, f/3.5, 1/45 sec, ISO 1600




May 01, 2023 at 10:46 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


I did have time today to go out and take some test shots. I mounted my A1 on a tripod, and angled it to get the horizon line to go from corner to corner. I then used the timer to take 3 shots each (f/3.5, f/5.6, f/8) with the Native E-Mount version, and the adapted M-Mount version. All shot on a timer to avoid camera shake. Each lens set to the hard stop infinity.

The most obvious thing right out of the gate is how much more the M-Mount version vignettes on the A1. The two images below show this clearly. I checked and the white house in the center of both images each has a 270 total RGB value. So the exposure on the white house in the center is identical. But the M-Mount vignette extends so deep and is so dark that exposure seems less overall.


Surprisingly, the M-Mount version seems to have and every so slight wider field of view.
(Edit I turned off profile correction and this fixed the FOV difference, but Vignette differences remain.)


These images are SOC jpegs just sized for FM posting.

I will post the full size jpegs for you pixel peepers to examine as soon as I figure out where and how. If one of you has a place I can do this let me know, and I will upload them there.





E-Mount Version







M-Mount Version. Heavy Vignette




May 01, 2023 at 07:30 PM
Peire
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Voigtlander Color Skopar 21/3.5 FE and Zeiss Distagon 21/2.8 ZE/ZF series are on the opposite sides as far as size,weight and some features of image rendition is concerned.I like Voigtlander for it's small size,light weight,built quality and a very good IQ.Yet it's overall rendition is somehow boring compared to Zeiss.Zeiss,while being significantly bigger and heavier is a typical Distagon with very high microcontrast,excellent collor rendition and great sharpness.Zeiss has some wavy distortion.Voigtlander has significant mid-zone dip in sharpness.Both are great lenses and will serve you well depending on what are the features you're looking for.





Zeiss Distagon 21/2.8 ZE

  ILCE-7RM2    DT 21mm F2.8 SAM lens    21mm    f/5.6    1/8s    400 ISO    0.0 EV  







Zeiss Distagon 21/2.8 ZE

  ILCE-7RM2    DT 21mm F2.8 SAM lens    21mm    f/4.0    1/8s    250 ISO    0.0 EV  







Zeiss Distagon 21/2.8 ZE

  ILCE-7RM2    DT 21mm F2.8 SAM lens    21mm    f/4.5    1/8s    400 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-7RM2    Voigtlander COLOR-SKOPAR 21mm F3.5 Aspherical lens    21mm    f/5.6    1/30s    640 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-7RM2    Voigtlander COLOR-SKOPAR 21mm F3.5 Aspherical lens    21mm    f/8.0    1/60s    250 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-7RM2    Voigtlander COLOR-SKOPAR 21mm F3.5 Aspherical lens    21mm    f/8.0    1/30s    800 ISO    0.0 EV  



Edited on May 09, 2023 at 04:22 AM · View previous versions



May 02, 2023 at 04:38 AM
BastianK
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


1bwana1 wrote:
I did have time today to go out and take some test shots. I mounted my A1 on a tripod, and angled it to get the horizon line to go from corner to corner. I then used the timer to take 3 shots each (f/3.5, f/5.6, f/8) with the Native E-Mount version, and the adapted M-Mount version. All shot on a timer to avoid camera shake. Each lens set to the hard stop infinity.

The most obvious thing right out of the gate is how much more the M-Mount version vignettes on the A1. The two images below show this clearly.
...Show more

Very interested in the outcome here as I had the feeling they use the same design for E and M.

If possible, and this can be any target even inside, take a picture with the E version slightly detached from the mount, meaning just rotate it a bit with the lock button pressed down so that there is no electronical connection anymore and compare that to the M version's vignetting.



May 02, 2023 at 05:32 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Not mentioned here, but the CV 21/1.8 in M-mount works is superb on M-cameras and works well with only very minor purple corner casting on Sony A7 series cameras (which can easily be tweaked with software PP).


May 02, 2023 at 07:05 AM
Ripolini
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Peire wrote:
Voigtlander Color Skopar 21/3.5 FE and Zeiss Distagon 21/2.8 ZE/ZF series are on the opposite sites as far as size,weight and some features of image rendition is concerned.I like Voigtlander for it's small size,light weight,built quality and a very good IQ.Yet it's overall rendition is somehow boring compared to Zeiss.Zeiss,while being significantly bigger and heavier is a typical Distagon with very high microcontrast,excellent collor rendition and great sharpness.Zeiss has some wavy distortion.Voigtlander has significant mid-zone dip in sharpness.Both are great lenses and will serve you well depending on what are the features you're looking for.


Thanks @Peire




May 02, 2023 at 10:14 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


BastianK wrote:
Very interested in the outcome here as I had the feeling they use the same design for E and M.

If possible, and this can be any target even inside, take a picture with the E version slightly detached from the mount, meaning just rotate it a bit with the lock button pressed down so that there is no electronical connection anymore and compare that to the M version's vignetting.


I am guessing that your are interested in whether there is some sort of in lense corrections being applied. My understanding has always been that Voigtlander doesn't do that. One very noticeable thing between the two versions is how much bigger the E-Mount version is, so there would be room for the components to do that in the lens.

I will shoot a blank wall with both lenses today and post the images here in the thread.



May 02, 2023 at 10:34 AM
rscheffler
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Hi all:

Steve uploaded his Voigtlander E and M-mount comparison images to a shared Google Drive folder I created for him. My intention was to then share the folder here. But, after reviewing the images, it unfortunately appears his E-mount copy isn't performing properly. For example, the upper left side of the composition contains distant subject content where the E-mount version starts off very soft wide open and never really sharpness up by f/8, whereas the center is sharp and bottom right corner with similar distant content is sharper, though also not so great. Meanwhile the lower left corner with very near subject content is sharp. His copy also exhibits a fairly strong mid-zone sharpness drop on the right side. None of this closely aligned with the crops Fred posted in his review of the E-mount copy, though it did have some mid-zone drop, but not like Steve's copy. Therefore, I'm reluctant to share the E-mount images since they're apparently not representational of an optimal copy.

The M-mount copy though seems to perform consistently and looks similar to what Fred posted of his M-mount copy in the 'M lenses adapted to mirrorless' thread.

Looking really closely and I wonder if the M version maybe was slightly focused past infinity when at the hard stop, since most adapters are slightly on the thin side and allow this. It may have slightly degraded wide open sharpness. There are some details in the wide open E-mount image in the center of the frame that to my eyes look slightly better, but that image also has a slight veiling to it and shows faint 'blooming' consistently in a certain direction in very high contrast transition areas, that to me would indicate an optical alignment problem. (I've seen similar in one of my complex Canon zooms prior to it being serviced.) IDK, maybe it's expecting too much from a $700 lens?

Below are links to the M version images (FYI all are around 30MB and might take a moment to load the preview). LMK if you think there's interest in also seeing the E-mount images.

M-mount f/3.5
M-mount f/5.6
M-mount f/8



May 02, 2023 at 01:07 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


Well, it seems my E-Mount version sucks. No wonder I was unimpressed stuck it the back of my lens closet and forgot I owned it. I can't in good faith sell it to anyone, so I guess I will explore other options on what to do with it. If I smoked it would be an ashtray.

This exercise got me curious so I went back today with my M11 and shot a quick hand held version at F/8 with the M Mount. I think the lens performs way better when shot on the sensor it was designed for, than it does adapted on the A1.

The infinity hard stop looks like it hits the focus right.

The vignette is much better, and is almost completely corrected if I turn on profiles.

The sharpness is better everywhere including the corners, although there is some softening and distortion there. A little fall off still exists midfield.

Below is a SOC JPEG with no corrections enabled. Its nice when files are so good right out of the camera. Good exposure, no noise, sharp, and accurate colors. Leica files are so damn good!





M11 - F/8, SOOC nothing done to the file at all.




May 02, 2023 at 05:22 PM
lbloom
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · CV 21/3.5 VM vs CV 21/3.5 E vs CZ 21/2.8


I have the CV 21/3.5 E. Itís compact, and generally quite competent. Years ago I had a pancake Nikon-mount CV 20/3.5. The 21/3.5 E is substantially better.

The CZ 21/2.8 ZF.2 remains my favorite 21 ever, though. I have extensively used (and still do) a CZ Loxia 21/2.8 and a CV 21/1.4, and Iíll still take the sparkle and bite of the ZF.2 over any of the others whenever I have the room in my bag.



May 03, 2023 at 02:43 AM
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