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X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

morris
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

The recent releases of DxO's Photo Lab and Pure RAW now include Prime XD, there new noise reduction with extra detail. Last night I decided to push my limits and find my limit. These two samples tell the story and represent what I found in multiple images.

Morris

ISO 10,000 seems to hold up

X-H2S NIKON AF-S NIKKOR 500mm f/5.6E PF ED VR lens 500mm f/5.6 1/300s 10000 ISO +0.7 EV

ISO 12,800 starts to louse detail. Look at the eyes and dark part of face for lost detail

X-H2S NIKON AF-S NIKKOR 500mm f/5.6E PF ED VR lens 500mm f/5.6 1/125s 12800 ISO +1.7 EV

Apr 25, 2023 at 12:55 PM

f_a_98
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

That's a good test and gives me hope that if I ever purchase XH2S, it can be pushed in post with high ISO.

Apr 25, 2023 at 01:01 PM

Rightsaidfred
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

Wow Morris that's absolutely excellent. Thank you for sharing.

Kind regards,
Martin

Apr 25, 2023 at 01:59 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

The results of the various programs including Topaz, Lightroom, and DXO speak for themselves, and DXO is just about as good as it gets.

I wouldn't recommend that you treat every photo with it, or shoot in a way where you can "get away" with too-slow glass, but in a pinch, it can really save an image.

Apr 25, 2023 at 02:04 PM

morris
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

RoamingScott wrote:
The results of the various programs including Topaz, Lightroom, and DXO speak for themselves, and DXO is just about as good as it gets.

I wouldn't recommend that you treat every photo with it, or shoot in a way where you can "get away" with too-slow glass, but in a pinch, it can really save an image.

I agree Scott. There is also Neat Image, my faverate noise removal for lower ISO noise. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

Morris

Apr 25, 2023 at 02:26 PM

casey258
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

Great results. I use DXO, I like Topaz, but I think DXO leaves more details. The new Denoise in Photoshop and Lightroom works ok but again DXO is better. I'd expect the Adobe version to improve as this is their first crack at noise reduction.

We get spoiled in good light, and then when we have to use higher ISO it takes more work.

casey

Apr 25, 2023 at 02:33 PM

SamuraiDog
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

morris wrote:
I agree Scott. There is also Neat Image, my faverate noise removal for lower ISO noise. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

Morris

Good work you put into this and very informative.
I tried Neat Image on Linux a year or two ago and I was not impressed. Based on your feedback, it sounds like it has gotten significantly better. Maybe I should try it again.

Apr 25, 2023 at 04:32 PM

morris
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

SamuraiDog wrote:
Good work you put into this and very informative.
I tried Neat Image on Linux a year or two ago and I was not impressed. Based on your feedback, it sounds like it has gotten significantly better. Maybe I should try it again.

I use V8 of Neat Image. I have not upgraded to 9. My use is as a photoshop plugin and I use it to clean up the backgrounds while I use Sharpen AI for the detail areas.

Morris

Apr 25, 2023 at 06:06 PM

JustShootMe
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

Have you tried the new Lightroom classic update ? Works well … although I think if the image is to clean it kind of looks fake

Apr 25, 2023 at 06:07 PM

morris
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

JustShootMe wrote:
Have you tried the new Lightroom classic update ? Works well … although I think if the image is to clean it kind of looks fake

I tried it in ACR as I'm a Photoshop user. It is the clastic blur the details. I don't what that happening to my RAW image before import.

Morris

Apr 25, 2023 at 07:11 PM

TomU_CH
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

Hi Morris, interesting reading.

So far my workflow does not really include noise reduction software on a general base. So far I tried to stay between iso 500 - 2000 and accepting a lower keeper rate due to motion blur - or higher noise.
Where does that software fit into a digital workflow, after culling / before import into the RAW converter (aka FRW - DxO - C1) or once imported into the Raw converter?
When I understand correctly, DxO does apply camera-lens profiles in its workflow, is that only for lens corrections or does that also affect noise reduction? What about more exotic camera lens combos (XH2s plus 500mm PF), surely DxO does not have that combo in its database?

Apr 27, 2023 at 12:07 AM

macawphoto
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

DXO did a great job cleaning up these images.

Apr 27, 2023 at 12:55 PM

morris
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

TomU_CH wrote:
Hi Morris, interesting reading.

So far my workflow does not really include noise reduction software on a general base. So far I tried to stay between iso 500 - 2000 and accepting a lower keeper rate due to motion blur - or higher noise.
Where does that software fit into a digital workflow, after culling / before import into the RAW converter (aka FRW - DxO - C1) or once imported into the Raw converter?
When I understand correctly, DxO does apply camera-lens profiles in its workflow, is that only for lens corrections or does that also affect noise reduction? What about...Show more →

Hi Tom,

DxO Pure RAW is used after you cull and before you process. Pure RAW is an extra step where the input is the RAW file and it produces a DNG file (or TIFF or JPEG) and then you load the DNG in your editor, in your case C1. As a DNG is a RAW file you can still do things like select white balance and make what ever changes your RAW converter permits and then edit.

Yes, most Fuji lenses are supported as well as bodies. There is no lens profile for the 500 PF on a Fuji body yet this dose not matter as the lens is fine without correction. Many Fuji lenses look terrible if you turn off the lens profile in your RAW converter.

Morris

Apr 27, 2023 at 07:09 PM

Russ Becker
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

I second what Morris says and add this ISO6400 image (shot thru a window) of a Blue Jay.

I cull RAW images first, then process them with C1. Those that I think are worth the extra step of pre-processing with PureRaw 2 are then passed through that and the resulting DNG files are brought back into C1. Starting parameters are copied from those used for the original RAF files, and then tweaked (usually minor adjustments to brightness and any C1 sharpening either turned off or greatly reduced).

Recommended.

Common Blue Jay

X-H1 XF100-400mmF4.5-5.6 R LM OIS WR lens 400mm f/5.6 1/640s 6400 ISO 0.0 EV

Apr 28, 2023 at 05:58 AM

Stevestuart
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

These look great! Would you all still recommend DXO over Topaz for denoise?

I only use Capture One for now but debating between purchasing one of the two programs.

I just got a new X-H2S!

Jun 27, 2023 at 07:29 PM

morris
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

Stevestuart wrote:
These look great! Would you all still recommend DXO over Topaz for denoise?

I only use Capture One for now but debating between purchasing one of the two programs.

I just got a new X-H2S!

Thank you,

Yes and particularly for ISO above 1,600. I use both and also Neat Image which I like better than Topaz Denoise. Topaz sharpen is superb.

Morris

Jul 01, 2023 at 12:28 PM

jm10
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

This is a very nice result Morris. The first image (ISO=10,000) is pretty clean.
I have compared the DXO tool with Topaz and the latest Adobe noise reduction offering; The DXO looks superior to me. I don't have the latest Fujifilm camera so my observations are limited to my old X-T2 but it should not be very different.

I observed something else - the DXO tool (I am still using the older version DXO Pure RAW 2) when used on low ISO images (even at the base ISO of 200 for the X-T2) results at noticeably sharper and crisper image compared to the LR (or ACR) engine. This tells me that DXO learned how to demosaic a Fujifilm image much better than Adobe. So, images that I value go first to the DXO plug-in in LR no matter what the ISO and later for post in LR.

The same may not work for other camera brands; images taken at ISO of 64 with Nikon Z7ii do not get improved to my eye, actually they look slightly over sharpened. Works at ISO of 3200 and beyond though:-)

jacob

Jul 02, 2023 at 08:46 PM

morris
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

jm10 wrote:
This is a very nice result Morris. The first image (ISO=10,000) is pretty clean.
I have compared the DXO tool with Topaz and the latest Adobe noise reduction offering; The DXO looks superior to me. I don't have the latest Fujifilm camera so my observations are limited to my old X-T2 but it should not be very different.

I observed something else - the DXO tool (I am still using the older version DXO Pure RAW 2) when used on low ISO images (even at the base ISO of 200 for the X-T2) results at noticeably sharper and crisper image compared to...Show more →

Hi Jacob,

DxO Photolab applies some sharpening after the conversion and this is still true with the fastest version. Ideally, sharpening is done at the end of processing yet I have not found it to be an issue.

Morris

Jul 03, 2023 at 06:16 AM

jm10
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

morris wrote:
Hi Jacob,

DxO Photolab applies some sharpening after the conversion and this is still true with the fastest version. Ideally, sharpening is done at the end of processing yet I have not found it to be an issue.

Morris

Hi Morris,

I have not studied what does DXO do after conversion, so I take your word for it. But even if they do apply sharpening I think that there is something else which makes the DXO output to look superior to that of Adobe for .RAF files.

No matter how I apply either the LR or PS sharpening tools (the old ones, before the AI release) after Adobe conversion, I cannot come close to the DXO output.

Another argument for superior DXO demosaicing would be the Iridient X-Transformer tool. Even with the sharpening turned off, the Iridient output looks noticeably better that Adobe. I used the X-Transformer for several years, but switched to the DXO Pure RAW 2 when it became available. Don't want to bash Adobe too much - still the best tool for pp at least for me :-)

Does this make sense?

jacob

Jul 03, 2023 at 01:18 PM

morris
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · X-H2s and extremally high ISOs + DxO Prime XD

jm10 wrote:
Hi Morris,

I have not studied what does DXO do after conversion, so I take your word for it. But even if they do apply sharpening I think that there is something else which makes the DXO output to look superior to that of Adobe for .RAF files.

No matter how I apply either the LR or PS sharpening tools (the old ones, before the AI release) after Adobe conversion, I cannot come close to the DXO output.

Another argument for superior DXO demosaicing would be the Iridient X-Transformer tool. Even with the sharpening turned off, the Iridient output looks noticeably better that...Show more →

ACR is a complex tool. You are probably doing something that is less than optimal. I get great results from ACR except for noise reduction. ACR's new noise reduction needs an automatic setting.

Morris

Jul 03, 2023 at 01:22 PM

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