Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
  

Archive 2023 · Leica Lenses and the M11

  
 
1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica Lenses and the M11


I just watched a video where it is claimed that the Leica lenses prior to the few newest releases , and the APO lenses are not capable of resolving the 60 mp M11 sensor.

I was very surprised to hear such a claim. He provides no real data or sources to back up this claim.

Also interesting to note that he has had 4 brand new M11s brink on him in the last year. Scarry for me.

What do you guys think?




Apr 18, 2023 at 11:23 AM
Thom W
Offline

Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica Lenses and the M11


Definitely surprising- I haven't had anything but great experiences shooting with older glass on the M10 but there's pretty big gap between 24 and 60mp. I hadn't seen this video but I like most of this guy's other stuff, I'd be interested to find out what led him to believe this as I hadn't heard that mentioned by anybody else before. Thanks for finding/posting this!


Apr 18, 2023 at 11:59 AM
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica Lenses and the M11


This claim is heard since high MP FF cameras hit the market made by Sony and later by other brands - reason behind is always to drive the push that consumers buy the latest and greatest lenses. You can actually use very well vintage lenses on 40 MP and higher resolution FF sensors - as I personally experience using my Leica LTM and M lenses in combination with my Sony A7R series body. Only potential disadvantage here is that the sensor cover glass is not optimized for some wider rangefinder lenses which is a different issue.
Rule of thumb is that for digital, you can nicely use an older lens on a modern higher resolving sensor, whereas with film it is better to use a higher resolving/modern lens to achieve best sharpness results.




Apr 18, 2023 at 12:10 PM
panos.v
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica Lenses and the M11


That kind of thinking has been around since the 4MP Nikon D2H.

Meanwhile, I have a 55/2 SMC Takumar and a Leitz 9cm from 1958 that resolve stupid amounts of detail on the monochrom. The Leitz just needs a bit of help with the contrast slider.

Anyway...Leica (and the others) have to sell some lenses so it is good for this kind of thinking to go around unchallenged (or encouraged...?).

I have a Canon EF 28/2.8. The original one. It resolves a lot more on a 6D. Still looks like crap in the corners but I do get a lot more detail when pixel peeping vs some film scans. The other way, I put a modern Canon lens like the 35/2 IS on a film camera and the film scans suddenly look so much better.

So yeah..image detail = lens resolving power x sensor. Improvement on either lens or sensor results in overall image detail improvement. Obviously if you increase both by dropping 4k on a new Lux or twice as much on an APO you'll get more for your few thousand dollars. But the old lenses still make good photos. Brick walls look so nice on 60MP with a 50/2 APO on f/8.



Apr 18, 2023 at 02:53 PM
RexGig0
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica Lenses and the M11


I believe that a high-MP camera can make a lens show its weaknesses, especially if the user looks for the weaknesses. I do not believe that a high-MP will “out-resolve” an older lens, because I do not think that is what is the most-accurate terminology to describe what is actually happening. I have not yet, however, used a 60MP camera, so, am not qualified to argue with someone who has. (I do have have Paleolithic ~50MP and ~47MP DSLRs.)


Apr 18, 2023 at 03:23 PM
rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica Lenses and the M11


Roger Cicala posted something on the Lens Rentals blog that might be informative:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

"Lots of people think that will be ‘whichever is less of the camera and lens.’ For example, my camera can resolve 61 megapixels, but my lens can only resolve 30 megapixels, so all I can see is 30 megapixels.

That’s not how it works. How it does work is very simple math: System MTF = Camera MTF x Lens MTF. MTF maxes at 1.0 because 1.0 is perfect. So let’s say my camera MTF is 0.7, and my lens MTF is 0.7, then my system MTF is 0.49 (Lens MTF x Camera MTF). This is actually a pretty reasonable system.

Now, let’s say I get a much better camera with much higher resolution; the camera MTF is 0.9. The system MTF with the same lens also increases: 0.7 X 0.9 = 0.63. On the other hand, I could do the same thing if I bought a much better lens and kept it on the same camera. The camera basically never ‘out resolves the lens.’

You could kind of get that ‘perceptual megapixel’ thing if either the lens (or the camera) really sucks. Let say we were using a crappy kit zoom lens with an MTF of 0.3. With the old camera; 0.3 X 0.7 =.21. Let’s spend a fortune on the newer, better camera, and we get 0.3 X 0.9 = 0.27. So our overall system MTF only went up a bit (0.07) because the lens really sucked. But if it had been just an average lens or a better lens (let say the MTF was 0.6 or 0.8), we’d have gotten a pretty similar improvement.

If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.

Roger’s rule: If you have either a crappy lens or crappy camera, improve the crappy part first; you get more bang for your $."

1bwana1 wrote:
I just watched a video where it is claimed that the Leica lenses prior to the few newest releases , and the APO lenses are not capable of resolving the 60 mp M11 sensor.


There is a really long Peter Karbe video from the past year or two in which he discusses various generations of Leica lenses and what to expect from them on current camera systems. Basically, all the latest APO ASPH glass was designed to maximize technical performance (sharpness/contrast/resolution) wide open (or close to it). His point about older lenses was that those would need to be stopped down 2-3 stops to achieve best technical performance, but would remain very usable.



Apr 18, 2023 at 04:48 PM
flash
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica Lenses and the M11


SOunds like he’s grumpy because his M11’s weren’t perfect. And who the hell bricks FOUR bodies? If it were that big a deal we’d all be on it here. There are plenty of M11 owners here and elsewhere and I’ve heard of only a few issues.

And you’d think a *professional* would understand how lenses work……

Gordon

p..s There’s also some loud muppet of Facebook saying the X2D’s is faulty because his lenses have some play. Like this one. Best ignored.



Apr 18, 2023 at 05:10 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica Lenses and the M11


1bwana1 wrote:
I just watched a video where it is claimed that the Leica lenses prior to the few newest releases , and the APO lenses are not capable of resolving the 60 mp M11 sensor.

I was very surprised to hear such a claim. He provides no real data or sources to back up this claim.

Also interesting to note that he has had 4 brand new M11s brink on him in the last year. Scarry for me.

What do you guys think?



What rscheffler said. At the same output size a higher resolution camera will only make higher resolution images with the same lenses used on a lower resolution camera. If you want your higher resolution camera to produce larger images than your lower resolution camera, however, then it can help to get better lenses, but not everyone wants larger images. If you can live with the larger images not being quite as sharp as the smaller images from your lower resolution camera then new lenses probably aren't needed. It is all about what you want for output and what weaknesses you are willing to tolerate.



Apr 18, 2023 at 06:17 PM
pmeheut
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica Lenses and the M11


On top of the fine things already said, has anyone computed the print size one would need to see the difference between say a 35mm FLE and a Summicron Apo Asph on a 60 Mpix sensor?
And at which distance we should watch it?

Also, in real life with a hand-held camera, isn't the difference even less obvious?

And as far s I'm concerned, I'm ok with computational photography so fixing lenses shortcomings with Capture One vignetting and AC correction and then using Gigapixel great AI based tools is ok.

After all, photographic gear is about technology, especially digital and if I want something traditional, I shoot film. Or use a mechanical Watch (which I don't anymore as I find my Apple Watch much more convenient: I pay with it, send texts, manages grocery shopping list...)



Apr 18, 2023 at 06:20 PM
1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica Lenses and the M11


Anyone know where or if Leica publishes MTF charts for their lenses?


Apr 18, 2023 at 08:15 PM
highdesertmesa
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica Lenses and the M11


As was mentioned, the M11 does let you more easily evaluate resolving power of a given lens, but I wouldn't call this sharpness. It's simply with one lens you can "see" more detail. Also, images from the M11 taken with older lenses/lenses with less resolving power can take a crap-ton of sharpening in post without looking over-sharpened or provoking unwanted artifacts.

That said, even my non-APO lenses not designed to be ultra-high resolving can resolve more detail at infinity on the M11 than I can see with my eyes with 20/15 vision.

I would say that you will not be disappointed using ANY lens on the M11 that worked well on the M10-R or M10-P. But you WILL be rewarded when using better lenses if your goal is to resolve more detail for applications such as landscape, etc.

Regarding the bricking, I'm pretty sure this person's flash trigger on the hotshoe is causing the problem. It's not the bodies when it happens four times. If I had to guess further, I imagine this person is putting on and removing the flash trigger while the camera is on. There is a report of doing this with the Visoflex 2 bricking an M11 – shorted out one of the boards on the camera requiring a repair in Wetzlar.



Apr 18, 2023 at 08:18 PM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica Lenses and the M11


He seems authentic to me, I like him.

Using modern high-resolution lenses designed for cameras with high-resolution sensors can produce exceptional detail throughout the entire image. However, older lenses, including those intended for film cameras, can still deliver high resolution in the center of the frame, although with potential performance issues in the corners that may not be significant for some applications.

As a result, selecting lenses should be based on artistic goals and aesthetic preferences rather than just claiming a specific lens is not compatible with a particular camera body.



Apr 18, 2023 at 09:05 PM
rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica Lenses and the M11


1bwana1 wrote:
Anyone know where or if Leica publishes MTF charts for their lenses?


You have to go to each lens's page, click on 'technical specification' at the top right of the page and download the PDF file. This is consistent with most lens pages, but not all.




Apr 18, 2023 at 09:57 PM
1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica Lenses and the M11


Thanks Ron!


Apr 18, 2023 at 10:36 PM
Sauseschritt
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica Lenses and the M11


rscheffler wrote:
That’s not how it works. How it does work is very simple math: System MTF = Camera MTF x Lens MTF. MTF maxes at 1.0 because 1.0 is perfect. So let’s say my camera MTF is 0.7, and my lens MTF is 0.7, then my system MTF is 0.49 (Lens MTF x Camera MTF). This is actually a pretty reasonable system.

Still not really how that works, because MFT is of course an abstraction of a much more complex behavior of actual optical systems.

But its nevertheless a pretty good explanation and a pretty good approximation of reality.



Apr 19, 2023 at 04:14 AM
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica Lenses and the M11


1bwana1 wrote:
Anyone know where or if Leica publishes MTF charts for their lenses?


Other than the mentioned online link for M lenses, older Leica lenses can be found in the Leica Camera and Lens Compendium booklet. It comes more expensive in the latest version, but if not needed for the latest lenses included, an older booklet version is fully sufficient, too. The lenses have all the MTF charts in there.



Apr 19, 2023 at 08:43 AM
rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica Lenses and the M11



retrofocus wrote:
Other than the mentioned online link for M lenses, older Leica lenses can be found in the Leica Camera and Lens Compendium booklet. It comes more expensive in the latest version, but if not needed for the latest lenses included, an older booklet version is fully sufficient, too. The lenses have all the MTF charts in there.


Try this for MTFs of older M lenses:

https://usermanual.wiki/Manual/LeicaMLensesTheirSoulandSecretsen.36269959



Apr 19, 2023 at 08:56 AM
1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica Lenses and the M11


rscheffler wrote:
Try this for MTFs of older M lenses:

https://usermanual.wiki/Manual/LeicaMLensesTheirSoulandSecretsen.36269959


Superb reference. Downloaded and will be read cover to cover.



Apr 19, 2023 at 09:49 AM
1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica Lenses and the M11


retrofocus wrote:
Other than the mentioned online link for M lenses, older Leica lenses can be found in the Leica Camera and Lens Compendium booklet. It comes more expensive in the latest version, but if not needed for the latest lenses included, an older booklet version is fully sufficient, too. The lenses have all the MTF charts in there.


Thanks, I will definately look into this reference.



Apr 19, 2023 at 09:50 AM
RexGig0
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica Lenses and the M11


Regarding seeing the difference between a Leica Summilux ASPH and a more-recently-released Leica APO Summicron ASPH, or a recently-released Voigtlander APO, well, whether 35mm or 50mm, yes, there are visible differences, because some of the Summiluxes are simply different, optically, especially wide-open. These differences include the Summilux lenses having optical imperfections that produce artistically-desirable effects.

Notably, the you-tuber being discussed, here, has a Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, and he likes using it for some of his shooting, on an M11. He did a video on this subject, in which he explained why he still uses an older lens on a 60mm M11. He normally uses a 50mm APO when shooting for clients, and he has explained why he does so, in more than one of his videos.

I am retired from public service, so, do not shoot evidentiary/forensic/crime scene images, anymore, thankfully, but, if I were to start a second career, perhaps as investigator for an insurance company, and felt that I needed to use an M camera, I would not use my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH for the images shot at the “normal” viewing angle. I would buy a pair of Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar lenses. Flat field, and better correction of aberrations. (In the real world, I would probably use my Nikon D850, and a pro-level mid-range zoom, for the business side of things.)

I am not any kind of expert, and, do not claim to have ever been a “professional photographer.”

I would, of course, rather have a Leica APO Summicron-M 50mm ASPH, than a Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar. Voigtlander should suffice, however, for business purposes. Even if able to write-down the expense of a Leica APO 50 ASPH, that is a big elephant to swallow, in one gulp.

Edited on Apr 19, 2023 at 10:30 AM · View previous versions



Apr 19, 2023 at 10:24 AM
       2       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.