Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              5              7       end
  

Archive 2023 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless

  
 
AmbientMike
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless




Mike_5D wrote:
She said flash was not allowed.

Regardless, my point was about mirrorless focusing in low light.


The SL2 DPAF focused in lower light than 1/125, f/2, 25600 IIRC. But at some point the light level fell even further, and you couldn't get the DPAF to lock, but the OVF could





Mar 17, 2023 at 12:06 PM
AmbientMike
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


400 shots on a battery isn't enough for me really. I shot ~1500 the other day on a not completely charged battery. Charged it about 15 min I think at one point, call it half an hour if you want to be on the safe side after maybe 900 photos or so. And that's on the LP-E10 (?) that's smaller than the LP-E17 in the SL2 and others


Mar 17, 2023 at 12:12 PM
osv2
Offline
• • • •
[X]
p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


slowdad wrote:
Thats code for I dont know how to use a flash


using the flash assist light on a dslr is not relevant to the low-light af capability of the camera; when manufacturers list low-light af specs it's never with flash assist.

milc also has flash assist, which you evidently weren't using, but it can be obnoxious for the subjects, because it's not infra-red... also read the comments in this old 2018 article: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0349022850/the-essential-pro-feature-that-no-mirrorless-camera-offers

what he told you about milc having better low-light capability than a dslr is correct, because the design of a dslr is inherently crippled, it can't take advantage of fast lenses at apertures wider than f/2-f2.8.

this is with ospdaf, but i imagine that it's similar for canon dpaf:

"Part of the reason the Sony can perform so well is that we're using a lens with an F1.4 maximum aperture. The DSLRs' focus modules essentially create 'virtual apertures' that only 'see' small regions from around the lens (read this excellent in-depth treatise by Douglas Kerr). They essentially can't see light rays entering peripheries of the lens beyond a certain aperture, which means that they can't take full advantage of the lenses' brightness in these dark conditions. Meanwhile, as far as we know, the masked pixels that comprise Sony's on-sensor AF elements see half the lens at all times, so can see the full F1.4 aperture. Therefore, the camera can take advantage of all that extra light these fast primes bring, not just in terms of exposure, but in terms of focus too." https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6884391759/sony-alpha-7r-ii-can-match-or-beat-dslr-low-light-af-performance






Mar 17, 2023 at 01:48 PM
Mike_5D
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


AmbientMike wrote:
The SL2 DPAF focused in lower light than 1/125, f/2, 25600 IIRC. But at some point the light level fell even further, and you couldn't get the DPAF to lock, but the OVF could



I just went into a very dark room with the R6 set to 1/125, f/2, auto ISO and servo tracking with a starting point. The RF 50/1.8 isn't the greatest focusing lens but it was able to hold onto a subject at ISO 64k while I moved it around the frame. The EF 24-70 2.8 II did the same at ISO 102k. Focusing wasn't a problem until I tried the 24-240 which produced an underexposed image preview at f/4 and ISO 102k. Enabling H 204k ISO and allowed servo AF to track a subject but just barely. Single shot AF with a single shot did better. In my experience, Canon mirrorless AF performance, especially in servo, correlates with exposure: If the image is properly exposed, AF will work. If you have an underexposed preview, especially with a slow lens, you'll have trouble.



Mar 17, 2023 at 02:53 PM
jtford9
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


I’m not going to quote anyone but I get a kick out of referring to Katelyn James as a rookie that doesn’t know how to use a flash. Will all the photographers on this site that are also pulling in a healthy 7 figure annual income from photography please stand up. 😂


Mar 17, 2023 at 03:46 PM
TeamSpeed
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


Physics are physics, doesn’t matter how good one might be. Low light = bad colors and noise in the shadows…. Flash, which can almost always be used in a reception hall, would solve that. However we certainly don’t know the situation at hand or the terms of that contract.


Mar 17, 2023 at 04:11 PM
Mike_5D
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


TeamSpeed wrote:
Physics are physics, doesn’t matter how good one might be. Low light = bad colors and noise in the shadows…. Flash, which can almost always be used in a reception hall, would solve that. However we certainly don’t know the situation at hand or the terms of that contract.


Yes, all we outsiders know is that flash was not used here. Maybe she was barred from using flash as stated. Maybe she doesn't own a flash or forgot it that day. Maybe she's secretly on Canon's payroll and it was a setup to show off the low light performance of the R6 and RF 85L. I don't know and it doesn't really matter. I only posted the video because I'd seen it a while ago and it is an example of a modern mirrorless camera focusing in low light, a capability that had been disputed in this thread.



Mar 17, 2023 at 05:21 PM
AmbientMike
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless



Mike_5D wrote:
I just went into a very dark room with the R6 set to 1/125, f/2, auto ISO and servo tracking with a starting point. The RF 50/1.8 isn't the greatest focusing lens but it was able to hold onto a subject at ISO 64k while I moved it around the frame. The EF 24-70 2.8 II did the same at ISO 102k. Focusing wasn't a problem until I tried the 24-240 which produced an underexposed image preview at f/4 and ISO 102k. Enabling H 204k ISO and allowed servo AF to track a subject but just barely. Single shot AF
...Show more

I'm pretty sure the Rebel SL2 can focus in lower light than that using the OVF. I was around 0.4 sec, 6400, 3.5, maybe a little dimmer, and got a lock using the OVF in less light than the DPAF

I use the 18-55 at 3.5, 18mm at 0.4 sec, 6400. It's been months but I don't think I used mf, and I am pretty sure I got a lock. If I couldn't on DPAF, used OVF



Mar 18, 2023 at 01:07 AM
TeamSpeed
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


It has everything to do with contrast of the subject, not all dimly lit scenes are equal. IE trying to match exposures to show one body can do this or that compared to another is a moot exercise.

The only thing we can really compare is canons rating for their own gear.

R6 = -6.5EV, but aren’t cross points

SL2 = -.5EV center point only, but is a cross point

The SL2 wasnt the best low light camera, even in a Dallas aquarium/botanical garden, some of the low lit water areas gave it fits.



Mar 18, 2023 at 01:20 AM
Mike_5D
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


AmbientMike wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Rebel SL2 can focus in lower light than that using the OVF. I was around 0.4 sec, 6400, 3.5, maybe a little dimmer, and got a lock using the OVF in less light than the DPAF

I use the 18-55 at 3.5, 18mm at 0.4 sec, 6400. It's been months but I don't think I used mf, and I am pretty sure I got a lock. If I couldn't on DPAF, used OVF


I just set my R6 to the exposure above. It happens that the darkness under my desk at night meters -1/3 to 0 EV depending on where I aim it. I had no problems focusing. The LCD is set to level 5 of 7 and with exposure preview enabled, I could see the scene clearly on the LCD while my own eyes couldn't see nearly as well. My old 5D3 completely failed that "under the desk" test when I was comparing it to the R6 when I first upgraded.



Mar 18, 2023 at 01:27 AM
exdeejjjaaaa
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


TeamSpeed wrote:
It has everything to do with contrast of the subject, not all dimly lit scenes are equal. IE trying to match exposures to show one body can do this or that compared to another is a moot exercise.

The only thing we can really compare is canons rating for their own gear.

R6 = -6.5EV, but aren’t cross points

SL2 = -.5EV center point only, but is a cross point

The SL2 wasnt the best low light camera, even in a Dallas aquarium/botanical garden, some of the low lit water areas gave it fits.


did Canon rate SL2 for f1.2 aperture like they did R6 ? just curious



Mar 18, 2023 at 09:57 AM
TeamSpeed
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


Not sure but it wouldn’t make a big difference. The SL2 has the older 9pt AF system that is only one cross point, and it was ok but not like todays cameras of course.


Mar 18, 2023 at 11:39 AM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


A general thought about the DSLR versus mirrorless stuff.

First, I use both. I've used various Fujifilm APS-C cameras for a decade, mostly for street/travel photography, but also for some event photography and an occasional landscape. I have used Canon DSLRs for 20 years, largely for tripod-based landscape photography, but also for a lot of wildlife (birds) and some other stuff.

While I could move to a Canon mirrorless camera, my 5DsR is working really well still for the kinds of photography I do with my full-frame system, so I'm not in a hurry to change. Eventually I will replace it with a mirrorless system — might be Canon, but might be something else.

Personal preferences and prejudices aside (and we all have them, right?), it is fair to say that when the current sorts of so-called mirrorless cameras began (with early cameras from Olympus and Fujifilm and Sony) their performance at first left most feeling that the DSLRs were still superior on most counts. However, since how we rank what is important to us varies, those who really needed small, light systems (likely Fujifilm/Olympus fans) or who wanted higher resolution for tripod-based landscape photography (likely attracted to the early Sony FF bodies) initially felt that the balance was shifting. (The small size, manual controls, and lens selection originally overcame my misgivings about other aspects of performance when I got into the Fujifilm system.)

Those who weren't ready to shift for those reasons felt, with justification, that the earlier mirrorless systems lagged behind DSLRs when it came to the quality of the EVF displays, AF performance, battery life, latency, and so forth.

But the manufacturers kept chipping away at these issues, improving all aspects of mirrorless camera performance. There will always be some things that cannot be fully "fixed" — for example, there will always be some latency by comparison to fully optical displays — but the differences continue to shrink. (By the way, note that some problems cannot be fixed on DSLRs either — viewfinder blackout for example.) For example, current battery life is actually pretty good and sufficient for a full day's shooting for the great majority of photographers. (And most of us carry an extra battery or two anyway.) EVF quality is much improved. Mirrorless cameras equal or exceed the AF performance of DSLRs in many situations.

In addition, mirrorless cameras allowed improvements over DSLR displays, including useful manual focus aids, exposure simulation for brighter displays in low light, smaller and lighter camera bodies, and so on.

On top of that, as manufacturers have almost universally shifted to mirrorless designs, they are no longer really regarded as being experimental, but as being mainstream. For this and other reasons, the concerns about EVF performance have greatly diminished, and many of us who were initially pretty resistant to the idea (as I was, which is why I got the hybrid viewfinder Fujifilm XPro2) became accustomed to the EVF displays and realized that...they aren't that big of a deal.

(My own experience with the XPro2 is illustrative. When I first got it I used the OVF display almost exclusively. Then I realized that the EVF was actually more useful in low light and night photography and I began to use it more. I also started using it when I need more precise framing or when using lenses that would obstruct the OVF view. At some point I realized that, without actually thinking about it, I had made the EVF my default mode and was now only rarely using the OVF. I replaced the XPro2 with a EVF-only model recently.)

In any technological transition there is a period of adjustment and adaptation. A few early-adopter types jump in at first. If the technology "has legs" and continues to improve, others become less resistant and eventually move in the same direction. Over time, if the technology proves itself, many of the early objections fade away and adoption becomes widespread... and the older technology eventually becomes the outlier. We're at that latter stage right now — while not everyone agrees, the consensus among manufacturers and users is that mirrorless has advantages over DSLRs.

It won't happen at the same speed for everyone, but it is clear that my DSLR, as well as it works and as well as it has served me, is not going to be the superior technology going forward.

Edited on Mar 18, 2023 at 01:11 PM · View previous versions



Mar 18, 2023 at 12:24 PM
AmbientMike
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


Mike_5D wrote:
I just went into a very dark room with the R6 set to 1/125, f/2, auto ISO and servo tracking with a starting point. The RF 50/1.8 isn't the greatest focusing lens but it was able to hold onto a subject at ISO 64k while I moved it around the frame. The EF 24-70 2.8 II did the same at ISO 102k. Focusing wasn't a problem until I tried the 24-240 which produced an underexposed image preview at f/4 and ISO 102k. Enabling H 204k ISO and allowed servo AF to track a subject but just barely. Single shot AF
...Show more

In this post you seem to be running up against a limit having to turn up the ISO to get it to work. However, I've shot at lower light levels, using an SL2 + 18-55. And the OVF focused in lower light than mirrorless DPAF. Same in the video, supposedly showing the low light AF capabilities, I've shot at lower light levels using a Rebel. 0.4-1/2 sec, 6400, f/3.5. So both examples offered I've used a Rebel in lower light

So I tend to believe the guy who says he gets better low light AF on DSLR, based on my experience.

It's not high contrast scenes, of course if I found high contrast at the right distance I'd often use it. That is what AF goes off of. You wonder how many people who say DSLR AF is bad realize that. But if they're not going to develop DSLRS any more, and haven't as much in recent years, really, I'm sure mirrorless will be better. And, yes, I used the articulating screen and DPAF on the SL2 pretty regularly




Edited on Mar 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM · View previous versions



Mar 18, 2023 at 12:44 PM
Rivermist
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


melcat wrote:
I measured this difference between my 1Ds Mk III and R3 by setting them beside each other with the eyepieces level, and then measuring the difference between the flange of the DSLR and that of the adapter on the mirrorless. It’s roughly 17mm. This is how much bigger front-to-back the R3 is with an EF lens fitted, compared to the 1Ds Mk III with the same EF lens fitted (since the EF lens has a fixed length).

The extra thickness is, I would guess, needed to fit the in-body image stabilisation.


Allow also for the extra depth needed for the articulated rear screen, the pro full-frame DSLRs from Canon did not have that feature (5D, 1D), only the 6D mk2 had it as far as I recall, while it was more common among the more recent APS-C DSLR bodies (except the 7D mk2).



Mar 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM
Mike_5D
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


AmbientMike wrote:
In this post you seem to be running up against a limit having to turn up the ISO to get it to work. However, I've shot at lower light levels, using an SL2 + 18-55. And the OVF focused in lower light than mirrorless DPAF. Same in the video, supposedly showing the low light AF capabilities, I've shot at lower light levels using a Rebel. 0.4-1/2 sec, 6400, f/3.5. So both examples offered I've used a Rebel in lower light

So I tend to believe the guy who says he gets better low light AF on DSLR, based on my experience.
...Show more

I guess your SL2's OVF AF is leaps and bounds ahead of the 5D3 then, which is what I compared extensively against the R6 when I first got it. The R6 focuses in environments that I couldn't even see through the 5D3's viewfinder, much less focus in. That said, R6 AF performance is affected by things that don't affect a DSLR's AF, which is why I think people have different experiences. These include exposure, exposure preview (on/off), or servo vs single shot.



Mar 18, 2023 at 01:01 PM
TeamSpeed
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


Personally, my eye sits into the VF cup before my nose hits the rear screen, so I fail to see how that “lengthens “ a lens/adapter combo. Whatever that impact you think is there is regardless of EF or RF lenses as well.


Mar 18, 2023 at 02:00 PM
melcat
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


AmbientMike wrote:
So I tend to believe the guy who says he gets better low light AF on DSLR, based on my experience.


This is plausible, because the AF sensors in DSLRs can be sensitive to near-infrared wavelengths as well as visible. Notice that the AF assist lamps on the mirrorless bodies are now an annoying white, and that they don’t use the red/near-infrared AF assist on the DSLR-era flashes.

I have done no systematic tests on mirrorless vs. DSLR AF and don’t know of any online source showing them.

(The marketers seem to have persuaded some people that a bird in flight is a good test. It is not. It is a test cameras with machine learning subject detection happen to do well at – a bird against a clear blue background.)

For those types of AF that my 1d Mk III (a high-end camera from 2007) can perform at all, it is no worse than my R3. It can’t track around the part of the frame covered by its AF points; only around the centre third of the frame is covered by AF points; it can only use the centre point at f/8; and it has no machine learning recognition of animals, so that’s rather a lot of types of AF it can’t perform!

I did find once that the R3 could not focus on a greige duck on a grey pond in very overcast conditions, and I think the 1D MkIII would have managed that. I suspect had I turned subject detection off the R3 might have succeeded. I base this on my experience trying to shoot dragonflies. With animal detection on, it couldn’t (presumably dragonflies were not in the machine learning training set). Turned off, it focussed perfectly. As for the ducks, I eventually got the shot, which is kind of arty and moody, but it’s quite reasonable to define it as out of scope for normal use.

The R3 has no cross sensors, but this is not a practical problem for wildlife. (With my slow lenses, I only ever had a cross sensor on the DSLRs in the centre, some of the time, and this was never a problem). It is a nuisance for architecture. Eventually Canon will give us quad-pixel AF and this will go away.



Mar 18, 2023 at 09:20 PM
dranakin
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


I haven’t yet converted. I just feel that even with the EF-to-RF converter, I’d be unsatisfied with using my current lens with a mirrorless body. Then I’ll just end up in a cycle of having to rebuy everything…


Mar 18, 2023 at 11:20 PM
Mike_5D
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · Experience from DSLR to Mirrorless


dranakin wrote:
I haven’t yet converted. I just feel that even with the EF-to-RF converter, I’d be unsatisfied with using my current lens with a mirrorless body. Then I’ll just end up in a cycle of having to rebuy everything…


Your current lenses will work better on any mirrorless from the last couple of years than they do now. RF lenses will work better still, but at a high price if you are upgrading L lenses.



Mar 18, 2023 at 11:29 PM
1       2       3              5              7       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              5              7       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.