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Archive 2023 · New to sports

  
 
Charles Loy
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · New to sports


ASchaef wrote:
My question for you sports guys is, whatís the best option for a mid price budget for those longer football baseball soccer shots

400 4.5z?
300 f4 vr?
200-400 vr?

Pretty set on the bodies but looking for that last bit of advice for the telephoto. TIA


The only lens in that group I would consider is the 400mm 4.5 Z

The 300mm is sorta okay but too short for the 3 sports you mention, and the 200-400, in my opinion, is garbage.




Mar 01, 2023 at 03:47 PM
JRobertson
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · New to sports


RickPJ wrote:
I disagree. You not only could do it with less, you could be paid to do it with less. Your choice is based upon your own desire to present a product and not likely driven by the absolute requirements of your customers. I applaud your desire to produce the best regardless of the cost. I like my 400 f2.8 and use it sometimes. It is a nice lens. Not everyone can afford do that. Hundreds of paid photojournalists across the country would find your equipment list a pipe dream.

By far and away the majority of published sports photos at
...Show more

If you lack any sort of professional standards and don't hold yourself, or your craft, to those standards. So yes, you are correct, you could be the Walmart of photographers, if that's your personal desire. Rest assured, the market is saturated with those types already and I personally enjoy crushing them in contracts and sales ;-)



Mar 02, 2023 at 07:47 AM
RickPJ
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · New to sports




If you lack any sort of professional standards and don't hold yourself, or your craft, to those standards. So yes, you are correct, you could be the Walmart of photographers, if that's your personal desire. Rest assured, the market is saturated with those types already and I personally enjoy crushing them in contracts and sales ;-)

If you are of the opinion, as most amateur golfers are, that you can buy a game by equipping yourself with the most expensive clubs, then you do that.

One way to eliminate competition is to go online and tell aspiring photographers that they have to invest $25K just to play. I can't argue with your strategy.

As for the deliberate insults. Unnecessary but you have to own those.







Mar 02, 2023 at 08:06 AM
dugaut
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · New to sports


I wasn't going to respond given the quality of sports photographers in this forum, but there is one piece missing here even if you didn't ask the specific question.

The sports photography business isn't going to earn you what weddings might without a lot of work on the business side. Since you already have a business for weddings, you're ahead of the game. I think the business side is going to be where you "spend" a lot.

For equipment given you'll be shooting indoors and outside at night, as mentioned, f/4 is a luxury. I use a 600 f/4 much more than most sports photographers and I don't use it for all night games and instead rely on the 400 f/2.8 and crop. Although a short focal length is good to have, my "short" lens is a 300 f/2.8 for near goal and the longer glass for mid and down field. You could get by with a prosumer camera (s), but given the glass you will buy, a z9/r3/a1 will tug at you and add to the cost.

Given the possibly limited income potential, there is a lot of cost to cover. I'd investigate the business side first and see what commitments you could get.



Mar 02, 2023 at 08:30 AM
leewoolery
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · New to sports


ASchaef wrote:
So started my photog biz shooting weddings and portraits. Been slowly moving away from that doing homes instead. Was asked to partner up locally to shoot sports. Excited for that as I have dabbled in it before and out of my comfort zone to learn more. I donít have tons to spend but was looking to move some gear around for this.

Looking at
Z9
Z6ll
70-200z
24-70

My question for you sports guys is, whatís the best option for a mid price budget for those longer football baseball soccer shots

400 4.5z?
300 f4 vr?
200-400 vr?

Pretty set on the bodies but looking for that last bit
...Show more

What camera gear do you currently own?

If you are buying all new gear designed specifically for sports/action...what is your budget?

With this new venture you talk about...will you only be photographing action?

Is there guaranteed income for covering action or just by spec?

No team photos?

Any graphics to be created?

Are you the owner of the company that will be taking the sports photos?

I ask these questions because there are many different ways to create income from sports and action.




Mar 02, 2023 at 10:02 AM
JRobertson
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · New to sports


RickPJ wrote:
If you are of the opinion, as most amateur golfers are, that you can buy a game by equipping yourself with the most expensive clubs, then you do that.

One way to eliminate competition is to go online and tell aspiring photographers that they have to invest $25K just to play. I can't argue with your strategy.

As for the deliberate insults. Unnecessary but you have to own those.




https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman




Mar 02, 2023 at 10:17 AM
leewoolery
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · New to sports


On the D6 and Z9, the Nikkor 200-400 is a different lens so don't discount purchasing it for day, night time under the lights or indoors action...but only if the lights are bright enough.

Action collages are a great way to market sports images.

Some examples...



© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2022

  NIKON Z 9    VR 200-400mm f/4G lens    200mm    f/4.0    1/4000s    640 ISO    +0.3 EV  





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2022

  NIKON Z 9    VR 200-400mm f/4G lens    290mm    f/4.0    1/1600s    1600 ISO    0.0 EV  





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2021

  NIKON D6    VR 200-400mm f/4G lens    220mm    f/4.0    1/2500s    1600 ISO    +0.3 EV  





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2021

  NIKON D6    VR 200-400mm f/4G lens    280mm    f/4.0    1/5000s    5000 ISO    +0.3 EV  





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2021

  NIKON D6    VR 200-400mm f/4G lens    400mm    f/4.0    1/1600s    2000 ISO    +0.3 EV  





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2023

  NIKON Z 9    VR 200-400mm f/4G lens    200mm    f/4.0    1/1600s    8000 ISO    0.0 EV  





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2023





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2023





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2023





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2023





© Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo 2023




Mar 02, 2023 at 11:07 AM
pulper11
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · New to sports


leewoolery wrote:
What camera gear do you currently own?

If you are buying all new gear designed specifically for sports/action...what is your budget?

With this new venture you talk about...will you only be photographing action?

Is there guaranteed income for covering action or just by spec?

No team photos?

Any graphics to be created?

Are you the owner of the company that will be taking the sports photos?

I ask these questions because there are many different ways to create income from sports and action.



These are great questions that should help with additional comments to help the OP.
It's important to note that some sports do not require (or even only maybe partially benefit from) a longer lens. For example, hockey, basketball, volleyball. Assuming that you already own a 70-200 2.8 type lens from your wedding photography, you could shoot these (and perhaps more) without any further lens purchases. So Lee's question about current equipment helps with this. Or if you have a 28-75 2.8 type lens, that would be probably sufficient for hockey and perhaps basketball too. While I shoot with three different lenses for hockey, the majority of all my shots are at the 70mm range.

So, if your new venture requires you to shoot all those sports that you listed earlier on and has income already under contract, then you will need a longer lens. However, if not, then you can certainly do these other sports (and build your sport portfolio) with the lenses I'm guessing you already have. That could be a safe route to get into sports photography.

Even football, with experience and a lot of movement on your part, can be done successfully with a 70-200 lens. I shot 2 years ago with almost 99% of my shots being with a 70-180 lens. I moved from one end to the other and learned where to go. Of course you miss shots that you could have had with a long lens. And my photography improved immensely once I added a 400 F4 lens (good lighting for my college football games). But it can be done. My website football photos under 2021 are almost all 70-180. Under 2022, especially with the Oklahoma and Cincinnati games, I started to use much more of my 400 lens.

One final thing. Buying used allows you the option, if it doesn't work out for whatever reason, to recoup a decent amount of your investment for large glass. While I'm not selling my 400, that thought helped in making the purchase.

If you could fill in the blanks from what Lee asked, that would probably provide additional help.

Best of luck


Edited on Mar 02, 2023 at 11:55 AM · View previous versions



Mar 02, 2023 at 11:26 AM
henry albert
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · New to sports


Charles Loy wrote:
... the 200-400, in my opinion, is garbage.



Care to elaborate on your experiences? Because I've used a 200-400 for about 10 years and it's a terrific lens.



Mar 02, 2023 at 11:38 AM
henry albert
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · New to sports


schlotz wrote:
Sports photography is the realm of Fast Glass (É2.8), just like @carl_g@ stated. The trinity lens line up mentioned is basically the standard. @JRobertson@ is pretty much spot on regarding sports shooting, it's an all-in endeavor. Unless you are shooting in NFL lit arenas, the use of É4.0 or higher lenses will not cut it. The IQ resulting from them in combination with very high ISO settings is not what many professional sports shooter will accept. Their livelihood depends on the total quality of their final product. It's not just capturing 'peak action', the final image quality matters too!


I have to disagree with you on this. The new breed of software processors are amazing. I shot this last night at 1000/f4/ISO 8000 at a sharp angle through very dirty glass.

Second one is a test of the same DxO software at ISO 16,000 and a 200-500/5.6.





  NIKON D6    VR 70-200mm f/2.8G lens    200mm    f/4.0    1/1000s    8000 ISO    0.0 EV  






  NIKON D6    VR 200-500mm f/5.6E lens    310mm    f/5.6    1/1250s    16000 ISO    0.0 EV  




Mar 02, 2023 at 12:38 PM
Charles Loy
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · New to sports


henry albert wrote:
Care to elaborate on your experiences? Because I've used a 200-400 for about 10 years and it's a terrific lens.


My dates may be a tad off, but I bought the first 200-400 in 2008ish directly after it become available. It was not a sharp lens, compared to the 300 2.8 and even when the 300 had a TC17 attached it was much sharper than the 200-400. I sold it on ebay to a fellow in California, he disliked it too.

I bought the VR (2nd) version in 2015, maybe earlier can't recall. Same, slight better then first, but just so-so.. At that time I was also shooting a 500mm G, and the same 300 2.8, both were much better at sharpness.

I don't like that lens and will never-ever use it again. That's all I have to say.



Mar 02, 2023 at 01:54 PM
henry albert
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · New to sports


Charles Loy wrote:
My dates may be a tad off, but I bought the first 200-400 in 2008ish directly after it become available. It was not a sharp lens, compared to the 300 2.8 and even when the 300 had a TC17 attached it was much sharper than the 200-400. I sold it on ebay to a fellow in California, he disliked it too.

I bought the VR (2nd) version in 2015, maybe earlier can't recall. Same, slight better then first, but just so-so.. At that time I was also shooting a 500mm G, and the same 300 2.8, both were much
...Show more

I probably got a good copy. It's not in the same league as the 300/2.8, but not much is.



Mar 02, 2023 at 02:41 PM
Charles Loy
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · New to sports


@Harry albert

I use the 200-500 lens, love it on the D6 and Z9. Cheaper, lighter (slightly) longer range, and much better sharpness wise. Although not pro built as that 200-400 gizmo. I seriously detest that damn lens.



Mar 02, 2023 at 02:54 PM
tschopp
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · New to sports


I don't tend to see a lot of high end glass where I live, the one exception is Big 10 football. I see a lot of pro's running aps-c or lower end full frame. I took this shot today, it was at a state finals basketball game. I didn't try to get a photo credential and it was shot from the cheap nosebleed seats beyond the other goal. The point isn't the shot, but what is being used to shoot sports on the floor. Starting on the right 70-200 f/4, Canon 55-250 on aps-c, iphone, sony with something small maybe a 28-75 or kit lens, finally I'm assuming 24-70 on Canon FF. I did see a couple 70-200/2.8 on FF but nothing bigger.

My shot was on a 135GM cropped to about 500mm. My shot is not meant to be any tour de force of sports photography, I'm too far to expect much. Figured I might get a few shots for the parents of things not covered from the floor, it's been over 30 years since we made it to state.

Seems like a lot of the sports market that actually pays is team photos, this sounds like something that can be done with a wedding kit. I think a lot has to do with the market you are in, some markets just can't justify the real high end primes.







Mar 09, 2023 at 08:11 PM
schlotz
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · New to sports


Interesting capture. Guy on left isn't shooting he's watching. Next one is trying to use the rear screen with extended arms, good luck fella. Third is using a phone although I suspect its video capture. Next, probably a seasoned photographer. Lastly, another using the back LCD screen. It sure would be nice to see the results from each of these folks. Ignoring any video, my bet is on #4.


Mar 10, 2023 at 08:06 AM
tschopp
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · New to sports


schlotz wrote:
Interesting capture. Guy on left isn't shooting he's watching. Next one is trying to use the rear screen with extended arms, good luck fella. Third is using a phone although I suspect its video capture. Next, probably a seasoned photographer. Lastly, another using the back LCD screen. It sure would be nice to see the results from each of these folks. Ignoring any video, my bet is on #4.


I looked on Facebook for some shots, but didn't find any other than one from the newspaper. There were a few pros shooting as well. A few more shots. I shot with fairly low shutter speed because I wanted to keep the ISO lower knowing I would be doing extreme cropping. Fortunately the lighting was pretty good for a gym, Big 10 arena.














  ILCE-7RM4    Sony FE 135mm F1.8 GM (SEL135F18GM) lens    135mm    f/1.8    1/320s    160 ISO    0.0 EV  





































I was shooting from the red circle




Mar 10, 2023 at 10:47 PM
carl_g
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · New to sports




henry albert wrote:
I have to disagree with you on this. The new breed of software processors are amazing. I shot this last night at 1000/f4/ISO 8000 at a sharp angle through very dirty glass.

Second one is a test of the same DxO software at ISO 16,000 and a 200-500/5.6.

If you are working, there is no time for noise reduction software in your workflow. Maybe itís just me but I prefer to get it right in camera rather than relying on software as a crutch. YMMV.



Mar 17, 2023 at 10:24 AM
pasblues
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · New to sports


70-200 & 100-400 with a minimum of an A9.


Dec 06, 2023 at 12:18 PM
henry albert
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · New to sports


carl_g wrote:
If you are working, there is no time for noise reduction software in your workflow. Maybe itís just me but I prefer to get it right in camera rather than relying on software as a crutch. YMMV.


Yeah, it's just you, Carl. You're the only one who knows how to do the job.



Dec 07, 2023 at 04:19 PM
schlotz
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · New to sports


Agree with Carl It's always better to get it right in the camera vs via post processing. This is especially important when shooting on the field and under a deadline. The tough scenario is when doing all of this on a dimly lit field that forces high ISO. Depending on the gear type and algorithm used in the body to generate the jpgs, the end result might not be the best solution. Such is the case I have at one local HS field but the good part there is I'm not under any deadline so I'm able to shoot RAW and PP after the match.


Dec 08, 2023 at 06:51 AM
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