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A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

EverLearning
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

I have version 3.3.2, have had it for more than a year and thus am not entitled to free updates anymore. I can see that version 3.7.0 is the current version and they have introduced a new "RAW" denoise model. My questions are:

1) Does anybody know if there is a upgrade option or if one has to rebuy the product? I have searched their site and the web but can't find anything.

2) Does this new RAW model make a big difference? If I had to rebuy, would it be worth the $80US (~$105CDN)?

3) After heavy culling, I often like to take the remaining photos and just crop them to get a better sense of what the image could be (allowing me to delete a few more photos and do the full PP on the rest). Does anybody know if this (change in SOOC file/reduction of image data) adversely impacts the AI algorithms?

Thanks

Feb 15, 2023 at 11:10 AM

ruthenium
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

I can speak only for the 2nd question.
My experience is that there is a real significant advantage when denoising from raw, using the RAW model in Topaz. The RAW model also works quite well in Topaz Photo AI except that I saw some tendency to oversharpen which is easily helped by moving down the corresponding slider.

Feb 15, 2023 at 05:10 PM

EverLearning
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

Answering one is better than none ruthenium! This is very good to know.

Regarding #1, I found out that one can upgrade for $49US if you sign into your account online, navigate to "My Products" and then click on "extend 1 year" for the product you want to upgrade (this applies to DeNoise AI, Sharpen AI and Gigapixel AI).

Now, can anybody answer #3?

Feb 15, 2023 at 05:29 PM

jhapeman
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

The RAW model is VERY good, especially for high ISO. You do need to slide down the default sharpening it applies, but IMO it's one of the best high-ISO NR algorithms out there.

As for #3 it makes no difference, but the RAW algorithm will just ignore any cropping, etc. done in LR and will edit the original file. I find that for lower ISOs I don't need the raw model, and there I'll use either the low light model or rarely the AI Clear model. In those cases, you're exporting a TIFF from LR and it will keep all of the adjustments, crops, etc. and it works perfectly fine.

Feb 15, 2023 at 06:07 PM

Blueshound
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

Long time Topaz user here. I believe the reports of other users that they have gotten the best results for very high ISO files from the RAW option, I just haven't been able to replicate the same thing myself. I rarely have files over ISO 6400, perhaps this is a factor. When I've tried RAW, I've opened the file in Denoise AI before any other adjustments, including anything that would perform demosaicing in LR, ACR or other editing apps.

My more normal workflow is to perform light adjustments in Camera RAW (choose profile, minor tonal, color temp & hue), and open as a base layer in PS CC. The next layer is always Denoise AI, if NR is needed. This almost always seems to work well for me, and I'm always careful to look for artifacts.

I'd suggest that keeping current is worth the small cost for an additional reason, RAW notwithstanding. Topaz as a company is constantly tweaking, fine-tuning and issuing updates during the year. Whether you like this approach or not, this is what they do. There are times when the latest updates leave something to be desired compared to the prior version, but there will be a next update fairly soon, if that is the case. The paid subscription is annual, so if you stay current, you will always have access to interim updates.

(Re: the above and Denoise AI or Sharpen AI: Topaz have been reported as saying recently that their current priority is Photo AI, over the separate versions of Denoise & Sharpen. I hope this doesn't prove to be the case, as prior to this week, I get much better results from the stand-alone apps. Having said that, I've just processed one image only with the latest Photo AI update, and the results were good. But it's only one image.)

Brian

Edited on Feb 16, 2023 at 09:37 AM · View previous versions

Feb 16, 2023 at 09:30 AM

jhapeman
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

Blueshound wrote:
Long time Topaz user here. I believe the reports of other users that they have gotten the best results for very high ISO files from the RAW option, I just haven't been able to replicate the same thing myself. I rarely have files over ISO 6400, perhaps this is a factor. When I've tried RAW, I've opened the file in Denoise AI before any other adjustments, including anything that would perform demosaicing in LR, ACR or other editing apps.

My more normal workflow is to perform light adjustments in Camera RAW (choose profile, minor tonal, color temp & hue), and open...Show more →

That fits my experience, though--I don't consider 6400 super high on today's newer cameras. If the exposure is good, it will be fine with the regular models. However, if it's under-exposed and you have to push it, or if you are shooting over 6400, that's where the raw model starts to show an advantage.

Feb 16, 2023 at 09:35 AM

EverLearning
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

Thanks for the info jhapeman. Good to know.

I think it makes sense to buy the upgrade.

Feb 16, 2023 at 09:38 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

DeNoise, Sharpen and Gigapixel will be phased out one day. Both DeNoise and Sharpen AI have not been updated in quite a while. DeNoise had the last update of 3.7.1 in February of 2022.

Photo AI is getting updates once a week. Not suggesting you get it. Just thought I'd let you know.

Feb 17, 2023 at 11:39 AM

jhapeman
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

Zenon Char wrote:
DeNoise, Sharpen and Gigapixel will be phased out one day. Both DeNoise and Sharpen AI have not been updated in quite a while. DeNoise had the last update of 3.7.1 in February of 2022.

Photo AI is getting updates once a week. Not suggesting you get it. Just thought I'd let you know.

The 3.7.1 update for DeNoise was just this week, February 2023.

They will be updated, but the goal is to merge the functionality into the PhotoAI application. If you've bought their photography bundle, it includes PhotoAI with it. There's still a LONG way to go for PhotoAI to be as useful as the others, that's why they are constantly updating it, they basically rolled out what I would have considered "alpha" software and have been rapidly patching issues and adding features that quite frankly should have been there since release.

It will be a better piece of software as an all in one, but only if they turn off the stupid autopilot that way too often oversharpens or overdoes the noise reduction. If they don't I'll be back to hunting for something better once the current standalone no longer work. I don't want software that dumbs down what I can do--AI is never good enough to abandon the human input its supposed to be based upon.

Feb 17, 2023 at 12:42 PM

Blueshound
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

Agreed with jhapeman on the Autopilot issue.

This morning I've just tried the latest Photo AI update, ran into the Autopilot issue particularly as re: subject selection, which I almost never want. I did find though that it's possible to modify how Autopilot starts up, and to turn off subject selection, and one or two other tweaks. So this helps.

In Photo AI: Preferences/Autopilot Configuration. Options to turn off Subject Detection, Face Detection and Auto-Upscaling. You can also modify when Photo AI automatically turns Sharpen on; this doesn't bother me so much as it's easy to turn on or off at will.

I'm all in though in the wish that Topaz doesn't abandon the stand alone apps, at least for another year, if that's the best that we can hope for.

Brian

Feb 17, 2023 at 12:53 PM

EverLearning
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

Zenon Char wrote:
DeNoise, Sharpen and Gigapixel will be phased out one day. Both DeNoise and Sharpen AI have not been updated in quite a while. DeNoise had the last update of 3.7.1 in February of 2022.

Photo AI is getting updates once a week. Not suggesting you get it. Just thought I'd let you know.

Thanks for pointing that out. When I looked at the last release date, I thought it was 2023, not 2022, but topazlabs.com states it was released February 13, 2022, so just over a year ago.

From what I understand:

a) there still have been a massive number of updates between 3.3.2 and 3.7.1, plus the addition of the RAW model, so it is probably still worth the update

b) from comments here it sounds like Photo AI is still not quite prime time

c) There is an upgrade path from the standalone products to Photo AI (I am sending an email to Topaz to follow up on this)

Feb 17, 2023 at 09:01 PM

EB-1
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

I only want the DeNoise function. If AI is like 2x the cost of the DeNoise, then I'm not interested at all.

EBH

Feb 17, 2023 at 09:16 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

EverLearning wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out. When I looked at the last release date, I thought it was 2023, not 2022, but topazlabs.com states it was released February 13, 2022, so just over a year ago.

From what I understand:

a) there still have been a massive number of updates between 3.3.2 and 3.7.1, plus the addition of the RAW model, so it is probably still worth the update

b) from comments here it sounds like Photo AI is still not quite prime time

c) There is an upgrade path from the standalone products to Photo AI (I am sending an email to Topaz to...Show more →

It is getting better every week. Sometimes I get better results with DXO PureRaw 2 and sometimes Photo AI is better.

I had DeNoise and Sharpen AI. When Photo AI came out I had about a month to go with DeNoise before the annual renewal. I had about 10 months with Sharpen. I really didn't want Gigapixel but Topaz offered me this. If I purchased Gigapixel for $80 the other two apps would be good for a year and they threw in Photo AI.

I use Photo AI exclusively because I like the all in one feature. If it fails then I use PureRaw 2. I'll give it a year and see what it does this fall when renewal time comes. Expensive up front cost if you a first time buyer and I'm wondering what the annual renewal fee will be. Topaz was a little sneaky on that one but a smart business move.

I'm hoping by then Adobe comes out with the Neural NR. It's already on the PS wait list and I read they already using AI for video.

This edit sold me early on.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1778538/0#16068491

Feb 18, 2023 at 01:39 AM

mcbroomf
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

EverLearning wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out. When I looked at the last release date, I thought it was 2023, not 2022, but topazlabs.com states it was released February 13, 2022, so just over a year ago.

That seems to be a typo (on their part). 3.6 was released in April 2022, 3.7 in June 2022 so 3.7.1 could not have been released in Feb 22.
https://community.topazlabs.com/c/releases/62

Also I only just noticed the update link in Denoise.

Feb 18, 2023 at 03:36 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

mcbroomf wrote:
That seems to be a typo (on their part). 3.6 was released in April 2022, 3.7 in June 2022 so 3.7.1 could not have been released in Feb 22.
https://community.topazlabs.com/c/releases/62

Also I only just noticed the update link in Denoise.

That I didn't know. Typo it appears. Thanks for the info and the heads up.

Feb 18, 2023 at 03:57 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

I just checked and Gigapixel has update as well. Topaz does or did say on their site that eventually they would phase out 3 apps when Photo AI is as robust. They also told me that in a support request as I was figuring out the pricing. I recall someone did say that they were putting a lot of effort into Photo AI but would go back to the apps eventually. I guess that still stands. No one knows when the apps will be phased out.

Correction: In this original post I said Sharpen had an update. Sorry it was just Gigapixel.

Feb 18, 2023 at 04:04 AM

EverLearning
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

I sent an e-mail to Topaz asking about upgrade pricing and the value of upgrading when it appeared the product had not been updated in a year. The rep confirmed that DeNoise had not been updated in a year but that there would have been 100s of updates/enhancements between my version (3.3.2) and the last version (3.7.1). He also mentioned that over this last year all development effort has been poured into Photo AI and that the standalone products would likely be going away but there wasn't a definitive plan for doing so.

Feb 18, 2023 at 10:42 AM

wzok
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

If #3 reduces the image size/resolution, I find it can make a difference in some cases. What I suspect is that most images available, used to train the AI, were not at full resolution of say an A7Riv. How this affects the AI is not clear to me. Sometimes the AI works great and sometimes it fails terribly. Sometimes it does better with the reduced resolution.

Feb 18, 2023 at 11:02 AM

EverLearning
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

EB-1 wrote:
I only want the DeNoise function. If AI is like 2x the cost of the DeNoise, then I'm not interested at all.

EBH

I am with you on this. I only have, and only want, Denoise AI. I asked how much the upgrade to Photo AI would be. The price quote they sent me indicates the path to upgrade is to complete the "Image Quality Bundle", so for me that is buying Gigapixel AI and Sharpen AI, then Photo AI is "free". For me, that completion of the bundle would cost $138.46US (about $185CDN)! Or I could just pay $49US to upgrade Denoise AI to the latest. I certainly know which way I am going.

If this is going to be their upgrade price, I will be doing a review of the marketplace for like products when they pull the plug on the standalone Denoise AI. I really dislike being forced to pay for products or services I don't want.

Feb 19, 2023 at 12:12 PM

EB-1
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · A few Topaz DeNoise AI questions

The issue I have is wanting a DeNoise that works after processing RAW files. I understand that NR is theoretically best done as part of RAW conversion but DXO and Topaz do a poor job on RAWs with many lenses compared to DPP. I hope the servers for the DeNoise stay on for a few years so that we can continue to install the 3.7.1 version.

EBH

Feb 19, 2023 at 12:43 PM

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