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Archive 2023 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

Younjulius
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

I’ve read that lossless compressed raw file is not a real raw file but like a tiff file. I also heard that because of it, it won’t work as well as normal raw files when you make much changes in white balance.

Can anyone with the experience share your experience?

Feb 13, 2023 at 11:45 AM

dclark
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

Younjulius wrote:
I’ve read that lossless compressed raw file is not a real raw file but like a tiff file. I also heard that because of it, it won’t work as well as normal raw files when you make much changes in white balance.

Can anyone with the experience share your experience?

The full size lossless compressed RAW file is a RAW file.
The M and S RAW files are processed files and not really raw files.
That's true for all M and S raw files for all camera models and all camera brands.

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:06 PM

galenapass
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

I've never heard this before and I don't have any trouble adjusting the white balance.

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:07 PM

tsdevine
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

Are they just linear, already demosaic'd, or are there other differences? If they are already demosaic'd, then technically not raw...but it would seem as though other meta data is still available correct?

dclark wrote:
The full size lossless compressed RAW file is a RAW file.
The M and S RAW files are processed files and not really raw files.
That's true for all M and S raw files for all camera models and all camera brands.

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:11 PM

dclark
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

tsdevine wrote:
Are they just linear, already demosaic'd, or are there other differences? If they are already demosaic'd, then technically not raw...but it would seem as though other meta data is still available correct?

I don't know the algorithms that are used and I assume that varies from camera to camera and brand to brand. If an M or S file is a non-integer ratio to the full resolution, then the pixel data had to be de-mosaic'ed to reduce the resolution, so it is clearly no longer raw. Even if it is a factor of 2 reduction, a normal Bayer CFA cannot be reduced without de-mosaic. A quad bayer CFA can be reduced a factor of 2 by combining raw data from a 2x2 block, so maybe that could be considered raw. I believe some phone cameras do that.

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:21 PM

Younjulius
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

Are those lossless raw files are all 14 bit for A7RV?

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:40 PM

tsdevine
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

I guess what I was asking, based on the OP's question, within the source data captured at the pixel level......the concept of "what balance" wouldn't really be lost as part of the de-mosaicing process would it? I would assume there is a standard de'mosaicing process being followed (within the manufacturer) and the concept of white balance could still be applied when processing the resulting file. Meaning just de-mosaicing the raw file doesn't mean white balance has been applied. White balance is an interpretation of the sensor data....whether it's been de-mosaiced in the camera first, or in a raw converter in the case of a normal raw file.

dclark wrote:
I don't know the algorithms that are used and I assume that varies from camera to camera and brand to brand. If an M or S file is a non-integer ratio to the full resolution, then the pixel data had to be de-mosaic'ed to reduce the resolution, so it is clearly no longer raw. Even if it is a factor of 2 reduction, a normal Bayer CFA cannot be reduced without de-mosaic. A quad bayer CFA can be reduced a factor of 2 by combining raw data from a 2x2 block, so maybe that could be considered raw. I believe...Show more →

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:44 PM

prosumerhacks
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

Younjulius wrote:
Are those lossless raw files are all 14 bit for A7RV?

Sure, looks like that.
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00229990

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:46 PM

dclark
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

tsdevine wrote:
I guess what I was asking, based on the OP's question, within the source data captured at the pixel level......the concept of "what balance" wouldn't really be lost as part of the de-mosaicing process would it? I would assume there is a standard de'mosaicing process being followed (within the manufacturer) and the concept of white balance could still be applied when processing the resulting file. Meaning just de-mosaicing the raw file doesn't mean white balance has been applied. White balance is an interpretation of the sensor data....whether it's been de-mosaiced in the camera first, or in a raw converter in...Show more →

RAW RGB pixel data does not have a white balance applied. White balance involves the relative intensity of the illumination in the R, G, and B part of the spectrum. In order to de-mosaic the image, a white balance needs to be applied since R, G and B data needs to be combined to make an RGB triplet for each pixel. You can change the RGB values to further adjust the white balance but you have lost the ability to do it to the unprocessed RAW data. Some image information has been lost.

Feb 13, 2023 at 12:52 PM

tsdevine
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

Gotcha, makes sense.

dclark wrote:
RAW RGB pixel data does not have a white balance applied. White balance involves the relative intensity of the illumination in the R, G, and B part of the spectrum. In order to de-mosaic the image, a white balance needs to be applied since R, G and B data needs to be combined to make an RGB triplet for each pixel. You can change the RGB values to further adjust the white balance but you have lost the ability to do it to the unprocessed RAW data. Some image information has been lost.

Feb 13, 2023 at 01:08 PM

Choderboy
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

All other brands have been doing lossless compressed for years.
They just call them RAW, as until relatively recently, they did not do compressed.
So you had RAW or JPG.
Sony offered uncompressed RAW, Compressed RAW, or JPG.
So now that Sony do what the rest have been doing, they now add 'Lossless Compressed' to their new file type.

Full frame mode, Lossless Compressed RAW (M) and (S) are different. Not only are they RAWs like other brands, they also have reduced pixels. So these are what are being called 'Not Real'. Some software, eg DxO Pure RAW don't recognise them.

There is no Uncompressed or Compressed RAW (M) or (S). So Lossless Compressed and (M) or (S) are different things completely.

Feb 13, 2023 at 05:04 PM

lensfan
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

I had issues importing a7r5 Lossless Compressed RAW into LR 11.5. Has the issue been fixed in later versions of LR?
Firmware is v2.00 now.

Jun 01, 2023 at 07:13 PM

adcimagery
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

lensfan wrote:
I had issues importing a7r5 Lossless Compressed RAW into LR 11.5. Has the issue been fixed in later versions of LR?
Firmware is v2.00 now.

I'm running the latest LR version with an a7r5 with no problems. Looks like support was added in LRC 12.1.

Jun 01, 2023 at 08:07 PM

Viramati
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · A7RV Lossless compressed RAW question

dclark wrote:
The full size lossless compressed RAW file is a RAW file.
The M and S RAW files are processed files and not really raw files.
That's true for all M and S raw files for all camera models and all camera brands.

Maybe this explains why the medium and small files can't be processed using Adobe lightroom's new enhance AI denoise feature. I had a long online chat with an Adobe technician yesterday and just received this reply.....

This email is in regards to unable to use the denoise in Lightroom Classic

I have tested the images shared by you and on my end as well denoise do not work with medium or small lossless files

I have then checked the reason for it :

L, M and S are all special Sony files types that may not 'yet' be supported by Camera Raw, at least that was the case with previous models such as A7 IV

This is still not added feature in Lightroom Classic but thank you so much for putting forward this valuable suggestion and we will definitely add this feature in upcoming updates

I would also request you to kindly fill the wishform as well so that our engineers can know about adding the denoise feature for the small or medium lossless files
https://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html

Nov 15, 2023 at 03:42 AM


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