Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1 2

4 end

Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

highdesertmesa wrote:
I think it may be more likely we get a small, rangefinder-style L-mount before we get an EVF-M. It might end up being a bit M5-ish versus the M9/10/11, but I would be all-in for that. I don't really care if it has the SL top dials or the full-analog M dials, but I think the former would help it not compete against the M11.

For L-mount speaks Leica's commitment to L-mount. But such hybrid EVF-based camera would be the death of the SL series - it might be possible if Leica slops the SL like they did in the past with the R-series (and also TL). The only way out for Leica to continue with the SL but also offer a smaller EVF based exchangeable mount camera is to go with M-mount lenses. If a user wants AF or video, this has to be SL or Leica Q.

Edited on Jan 25, 2023 at 06:50 PM · View previous versions

Jan 25, 2023 at 06:34 PM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Steve Spencer wrote:
I think an EVF Leica is becoming less likely as time goes on. The main problem is that Leica has some pretty stiff competition for such a camera from Sony and now Nikon. With CV making a pretty wide set of quality manual focus lenses for Sony and looking like they are going to do so for Nikon those cameras provide pretty compelling options for people who want an EVF/manual focus combination. If that is what you want very soon the question will become what Leica can provide that Sony or Nikon cannot.

Nikon I think is going to...Show more →

With this logic of competition in the MLC market applied, Leica should have never released the SL series. The market niche which doesn't exist yet with such hybrid EVF-based camera is using a thin sensor stack to optimize for M-mount lenses in an EVF-based camera. Nikon might get closest here with its MLCs but it is still not perfect here either - nor is even the SL series, too.

Jan 25, 2023 at 06:38 PM

highdesertmesa
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

retrofocus wrote:
For L-mount speaks Leica's commitment to L-mount. But such hybrid EVF-based camera would be the death of the SL series - it might be possible if Leica slops the SL like they did in the past with the R-series (and also TL). The only way out for Leica to continue with the SL but also offer a smaller EVF based exchangeable mount camera is to go with M-mount lenses. If a user wants AF or video, this has to be SL or Leica Q.

Are we both drinking tonight? I can't understand this post, and I don't think it's just the tequila

Jan 25, 2023 at 06:53 PM

SlowDriver
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

highdesertmesa wrote:
I think it may be more likely we get a small, rangefinder-style L-mount before we get an EVF-M.

Leica kind of owns that to its APS-C customers as well who are still in shock by the CL being discontinued. Most Leica CL shooters will not accept a 931g body as a replacement for a 400g body.

I personally do not see the Leica L-mount surviving without a lighter body. Even Panasonic with the S5 has a body that is 200g lighter.

Panasonic themselves have recently acknowledged that there is a huge demand for small capable full frame cameras.

My guess would be that in the not too far away future we will get smaller rangefinder-styled L-mount bodies from both Panasonic and Leica.

Jan 25, 2023 at 07:02 PM

Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

retrofocus wrote:
With this logic of competition in the MLC market applied, Leica should have never released the SL series. The market niche which doesn't exist yet with such hybrid EVF-based camera is using a thin sensor stack to optimize for M-mount lenses in an EVF-based camera. Nikon might get closest here with its MLCs but it is still not perfect here either - nor is even the SL series, too.

Well I think Leica is in a bind with the SL series. They don't compete well for price and don't sell a lot. Competition has held their prices and I presume profits down, but it seems if they did compete on price they wouldn't make a profit and if they don't compete on price they won't have much market share. I am not sure Leica wants another camera series like that. They committed to the SL series and they are sticking it out for now, but I would never be surprised if they just made lenses for the other L mount camera makers and stopped making SL series cameras.

The market niche you describe (thin sensor cover EVF camera for M lenses), I think is extremely small and is likely pretty well served by Kolari vision and others that puts thin cover glass on the sensor in a Sony or Nikon camera. Such a camera can have an excellent EVF, excellent IBIS, a generally excellent sensor, and works about as well as with M lenses as a Leica M camera and would cost less than half what a Leica EVF camera would cost. Part of the reason this niche is so small as that it is really only for people who want to shoot M lenses (and aren't happy with Voigtlander or DSLR manual focus alternatives) and doesn't want a rangefinder. Leica M shooters who have to have Leica M lenses, but don't want to use a rangefinder is pretty small and note that these are people who the lenses have to be Leica (and not Voigtlander, or 7 Artisans, or TT Artisans, etc.) and only Leica will do for the lenses, but a rangefinder is the show stopper for them. Because if you just want small Leica M like lenses there are now a lot of good ones available that aren't Leica branded, but have native mounts on mirrorless cameras and are small and provide excellent performance on stock sensor stacks.

So maybe I am wrong and there are a lot of people who only want to shoot Leica M lenses but don't want to use a rangefinder and really only want an EVF. I just don't think there are hardly any of those shooters out there and among the few who exist the Kolari cover glass swap is going to be a pretty compelling option for a lot of them. I can't see how this niche is even close to big enough for Leica to build a camera for those very specific type of shooters.

Jan 25, 2023 at 07:06 PM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Steve Spencer wrote:
Well I think Leica is in a bind with the SL series. They don't compete well for price and don't sell a lot. Competition has held their prices and I presume profits down, but it seems if they did compete on price they wouldn't make a profit and if they don't compete on price they won't have much market share. I am not sure Leica wants another camera series like that. They committed to the SL series and they are sticking it out for now, but I would never be surprised if they just made lenses for the other...Show more →

Fully agree with your first paragraph - the SL is kind of a failure for Leica so far. Leica still tries to push sales for trade-ins, and many commercials through influencers on social media with - it seems - very limited success.

You are right also that a Kolari-converted MLC of another brand is competitive. But it is not the same shooting experience compared to a Leica M based camera system though. Too many options, cumbersome menus, plasticky built are only a few culprits to mention here. I disagree with you that the interest of Leica M camera enthusiasts is small in such hybrid M camera - there were discussions in the Leica-Forum about this, and many expressed interest in such camera especially people where rangefinder focusing became difficult with eyesight and those who like the Q-series but wanted more flexibility with other focal lengths and/or using specialty M or LTM lenses. I personally would continue using rangefinder M film and digital cameras in parallel with such EVF-based hybrid camera.

The biggest con for such EVF-based camera is potential in-house competition with rangefinder-based M cameras and especially the Q-series.

Jan 25, 2023 at 07:18 PM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

highdesertmesa wrote:
Are we both drinking tonight? I can't understand this post, and I don't think it's just the tequila

Thanks for sharing this very insightful post.

Jan 25, 2023 at 07:24 PM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

SlowDriver wrote:
Leica kind of owns that to its APS-C customers as well who are still in shock by the CL being discontinued. Most Leica CL shooters will not accept a 931g body as a replacement for a 400g body.

I personally do not see the Leica L-mount surviving without a lighter body. Even Panasonic with the S5 has a body that is 200g lighter.

Panasonic themselves have recently acknowledged that there is a huge demand for small capable full frame cameras.

My guess would be that in the not too far away future we will get smaller rangefinder-styled L-mount bodies from both...Show more →

It is a possibility, too. Not exactly what I personally hope for but at least I could use a L/M adapter to allow me using M/LTM lenses. I personally have zero interest in bulky L lenses.

Jan 25, 2023 at 07:26 PM

Desmolicious
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Steve Spencer wrote:
I think an EVF Leica is becoming less likely as time goes on. The main problem is that Leica has some pretty stiff competition for such a camera from Sony and now Nikon. With CV making a pretty wide set of quality manual focus lenses for Sony and looking like they are going to do so for Nikon those cameras provide pretty compelling options for people who want an EVF/manual focus combination. If that is what you want very soon the question will become what Leica can provide that Sony or Nikon cannot.

Nikon I think is going to...Show more →

That huge catalog of manual focus Nikon lenses do not play well with a Nikon Z unless you are ok with there being no communication between camera and lens. When I use, for example, a Nikkor 105 1.8 AIS on my Z7, the only way to determine correct exposure is to view the histogram and push it as far to the right before it clips. If I try to judge it via the EVF in the WYSIWYG mode, it is always about two stops underexposed.
The chipped manual focus lenses - AI-P , ZF.2 and SL II - work great with the FTZ adapter.
The new range of CV Z mount lenses that will be chipped will be even better, as no clunky intermediate adapter.

Jan 25, 2023 at 07:35 PM

SlowDriver
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Desmolicious wrote:
Leica will never sell an M with a built in EVF. Not when they can sell the clip on one for an extra $740.

On the other hand Leica is run by a bunch of bean counters. If it requires not too much R&D and is likely to result in a high margin product they might go for it.

Jan 25, 2023 at 07:48 PM

Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Desmolicious wrote:
That huge catalog of manual focus Nikon lenses do not play well with a Nikon Z unless you are ok with there being no communication between camera and lens. When I use, for example, a Nikkor 105 1.8 AIS on my Z7, the only way to determine correct exposure is to view the histogram and push it as far to the right before it clips. If I try to judge it via the EVF in the WYSIWYG mode, it is always about two stops underexposed.
The chipped manual focus lenses - AI-P , ZF.2 and SL II - work great with...Show more →

You are totally right, here. You do need manual focus lenses that are chipped and that does limit the catalog of manual focus Nikon lenses considerably. With the right adapter you also get full use of all the Sony E mount lenses with contacts on the Nikon Z including all the Zeiss Loxia lenses and the Voigtlander lenses that aren't yet made for Z mount. These lenses also have the focus box color change method of manual focus that they don't have on Sony. All Canon EF mount lenses can be used including some really nice manual focus lenses like the TSE lenses and the 65MP 5X macro and some third party EF lenses like the Voigtlander 125 f/2.5 APO macro and the 180 f/4 APO. All with the focus box color change focus and IBIS set correctly. Nikon Z is really a very adaptable mount. So for small Leica M like lenses with full electronics contacts, all focus methods, and correct IBIS on Nikon Z you have

CV 10 f/5.6 (adapted from E mount) CV 12 f/5.6 (adapted from E mount), CV 15 f/4.5 (Z mount), CV 21 f/1.4 (adapted from E mount), Loxia 21 f/2.8 (adapted from E mount), CV 21 f/3.5 (adapted from E mount), Loxia 25 f/2.4 (adapted from E mount), CV CV 35 f/2 APO (Z mount), Loxia 35 f/2 (adapted from Z mount), CV 35 f/1.4 classic (adapted from E mount), CV 35 f/1.2 SE (adapted from E mount), CV 40 f/1.2 (Z mount), CV 50 f/2 APO (Z mount), Loxia 50 f/2 (adapted from E mount),CV 50 f/1.2 (adapted from E mount), CV 50 f/1.2 SE (adapted from E mount), CV 50 f/1( Z mount), CV 65 f/2 APO macro (Z mount), Loxia 85 f/2.4 (adapted from E mount), and CV 110 f/2.5 APO macro (adapted from E mount)

That is a pretty comprehensive set of lenses with really only the 18mm, 28mm, and 135mm traditional focal lengths left with no M like options available. I suppose you would have to settle for the CV 65 which is pretty big or the Loxia 85 instead of a traditional 75 and the 85 isn't the traditional 90 but obviously close. Still this is a lot of great options. If you can live with just a bit of size you can still get full manual focus and IBIS functionality and great performance with the ZF/ZE 18 f/2.8 Milvus, or the Zeiss Batis 18 f/2.8, and at 28mm you can get full manual focus functionality and quite good performance with the ZF/ZE 28 f/2 or if you can live without contacts really nice Leica M like performance with the Leica R 28 f/2.8 II. At 135mm you have similar choices with the Zeiss ZF/ZE 135 f/2 APO if you want contacts and can handle having a bigger lens or the Leica M 135 f/3.4 APO if you can live without contacts. Suffice it to say that you can put together an excellent EVF/MF kit with Nikon Z and for most people all of the lenses would be small Leica M like lenses, with some having to add one or at most two that are larger or don't have full electronic contacts.

That's why for me if I wanted an EVF camera I would be totally happy with what is being offered by Nikon Z (and a Z7 or Z7 II has a great sensor), but I don't want an EVF based camera. I want a camera with a rangefinder for focussing and that is why I have an M10.

Jan 25, 2023 at 08:34 PM

Desmolicious
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

SlowDriver wrote:
On the other hand Leica is run by a bunch of bean counters. If it requires not too much R&D and is likely to result in a high margin product they might go for it.

I sometimes wonder how the film Ms still exist. Either there is a huge profit margin per unit as they really hardly make any, or they are just used as a halo item to illustrate their heritage. And thus a marketing exercise.

Don't get me wrong - I'm glad they do still exist!

Jan 25, 2023 at 08:44 PM

freaklikeme
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Fred Miranda wrote:
I see worse corner performance when using IBIS with my Sony cameras. It's especially more noticeable with wide angle lenses.
The brass top M cameras help with stabilization and the great high ISO performance from modern sensors should continue to improve. However, if Leica could do miracles and was able implement IBIS without adding extra weight or size to the body 'and' if the mechanism didn't affect IQ, I would not mind to have it, especially when using my tele lenses...but we know there is no free lunch.

Yeah, my point wasn't about what we're willing to tolerate with IBIS, but more about how controlling Leica is with lens corrections getting applied to all file formats. I imagine they'd lose a few software engineers if they wanted to maintain the same level of correction while moving the sensor around in the IC. It may eventually come to the M, but I think the tech may still be a few gens away from being small and light enough for them to consider it.

Jan 25, 2023 at 08:56 PM

freaklikeme
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Jan 25, 2023 at 08:57 PM

highdesertmesa
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

retrofocus wrote:
Thanks for sharing this very insightful post.

What else am I to make of a sentence like, "For L-mount speaks Leica's commitment to L-mount"? That makes no sense. Can you instead clarify what you're trying to say?

I'm not understanding why you're calling what I described a "hybrid EVF-based camera". And what is an "exchangeable mount camera"? I said Leica should make a rangefinder-style L-mount camera. That's not a hybrid of anything. It's an SL with a smaller EVF on the left and no grip. Many manufacturers are adding a smaller body option in their lineup to no detriment of the rest of their model sales (example: GFX 50S and the rangefinder-style 50R coexisted). Did you think I was saying "rangefinder hybrid" like the X100 series instead of what I said, which is "rangefinder-style", which means a regular EVF in a rangefinder placement on the left?

To get to what everyone else is saying about the SL series doom and gloom: The only reason (other than the obvious high prices) the SL2/S sucks is because of the CDAF, which means terrible continuous AF and tracking. Now that Panasonic has demonstrated PDAF at the same level as the other market players, the SL3 will at least be able to keep up. Hopefully they will also add an articulating rear screen.

Jan 25, 2023 at 09:29 PM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

highdesertmesa wrote:
What else am I to make of a sentence like, "For L-mount speaks Leica's commitment to L-mount"? That makes no sense. Can you instead clarify what you're trying to say?

I'm not understanding why you're calling what I described a "hybrid EVF-based camera". And what is an "exchangeable mount camera"? I said Leica should make a rangefinder-style L-mount camera. That's not a hybrid of anything. It's an SL with a smaller EVF on the left and no grip. Many manufacturers are adding a smaller body option in their lineup to no detriment of the rest of their model sales (example: GFX...Show more →

Please read my earlier comment in this thread where I defined what I refer to as EVF-based hybrid camera. Name it Leica M with EVF instead of OVF-based rangefinder or Leica Q with exchangeable mount - IMO preferably M-mount but L-mount is a possibility, too.

What I refer to "For L-mount speaks Leica's commitment to L-mount" is that Dr. Kaufmann expressed in an interview that Leica is committed to the L-mount. This means that at least under his leadership it is less likely that Leica changes course and deserts the L-mount. It is open if Leica will use the L-mount for all new cameras in the future other than the M-cameras.

Leica SL is a lackluster due to its market pricing compared to other available MLCs out there and its bulky size which is less attractive for many M shooters. The SL can be an addition for a very different need where the M cameras are no fit: for AF and video stuff. Personally I am not interested in either and therefore have zero interest in the L-mount (don't even follow the lens options there etc). The above mentioned EVF-based hybrid M camera would instead fit the need for small size manual lenses and smaller camera size. Leica Q comes closest here - but its lens is not exchangeable (all mentioned/discussed in earlier posts here)

Edited on Jan 25, 2023 at 09:54 PM · View previous versions

Jan 25, 2023 at 09:47 PM

highdesertmesa
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

retrofocus wrote:
Please read my earlier comment in this thread where I defined what I refer to as EVF-based hybrid camera. Name it Leica M with EVF instead of OVF-based rangefinder or Leica Q with exchangeable mount - IMO preferably M-mount.

What I refer to "For L-mount speaks Leica's commitment to L-mount" is that Dr. Kaufmann expressed in an interview that Leica is committed to the L-mount. This means that at least under his leadership it is less likely that Leica changes course and deserts the L-mount. It is open if Leica will use the L-mount for all new cameras in the...Show more →

In addition to PDAF, Leica does need to make the SL3 smaller than the SL2. I think a small SL plus M adapter would be more versatile than an EVF M-mount camera.

Jan 25, 2023 at 09:52 PM

SlowDriver
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Desmolicious wrote:
I sometimes wonder how the film Ms still exist. Either there is a huge profit margin per unit as they really hardly make any, or they are just used as a halo item to illustrate their heritage. And thus a marketing exercise.

Don't get me wrong - I'm glad they do still exist!

Mostly the latter would be my guess, heritage and marketing, although with zero % innovation there should be little R&D required, so the margin is probably not too bad either...

That being said, I agree, also glad they still exist.

Jan 25, 2023 at 09:54 PM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

highdesertmesa wrote:
In addition to PDAF, Leica does need to make the SL3 smaller than the SL2. I think a small SL plus M adapter would be more versatile than an EVF M-mount camera.

This would be close to my suggested EVF-based hybrid camera. I highly doubt that the SL suddenly gets a much smaller body size, but yes, if such model is similar to Leica M size, this is the option I refer to. I related more to Leica Q because this one is already small in body size. I personally hope for M-mount instead of larger L-mount but this is subjective since I only use M/LTM lenses and have no interest in AF capabilities.

Jan 25, 2023 at 09:57 PM

rscheffler
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

jalquiza wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but one downside to IBIS is typically that you increase the body size, and maybe even require increased lens sizes. The lens has to draw a large enough image and then the sensor needs to have enough room to move around within it to be effective.

I think one problem with IBIS and EVFs is that those things on their own aren't complicated, but bring along more menu settings, more reasons for future upgrades that really just brings you closer to "every other camera" out there. I have an A7R IV thats so good at...Show more →

IMO EVF in an M is considerably more complex and controversial than IBIS. And I'm an advocate for a hybrid OVF/EVF solution, but realistically doubt it will ever happen. IBIS on the other hand is fully contained inside the camera and completely invisible to the user. If Leica can integrate IBIS in the M10/11 body size, the only complicated thing about IBIS will likely be three additional menu options: on, off, set focal length manually (which could be independent of manual lens identification for EXIF/lens correction profile application if the photographer prefers to leave uncoded lenses as such, but would like to use IBIS).

In regards to requiring sufficient lens coverage for IBIS movement: I believe the amount of movement is relative to focal length. Wide angle lenses require less IBIS movement compared to tele lenses, and it seems tele lenses typically have somewhat larger image circles anyway (aren't some M mount lenses adapted to mini-MF?). If lens coverage is on average marginal or room for IBIS to move is restricted for various reasons, it could simply be described as effective for 2, 3, 4 stops shake reduction, etc. I'd be perfectly happy to gain 2 or 3 stops in the 35-50mm range with an M IBIS system. I don't need 5, 6, 7+ claimed by Canikony.

SlowDriver wrote:
Mostly the latter would be my guess, heritage and marketing, although with zero % innovation there should be little R&D required, so the margin is probably not too bad either...

That being said, I agree, also glad they still exist.

I thought Leica is marketing the new M6 as having updated electronics? So it would seem it's not just the 'old' M6 under the hood. That said, how complicated can those electronics be compared to a digital camera?

Jan 25, 2023 at 10:06 PM

1 2 3 4 end
FM Forums \| Leica & Alternative Gear \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 4 end