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Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

retrofocus
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Jan 24, 2023 at 07:55 PM

retrofocus
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Desmolicious wrote:
Ya, I don't think I ever used the video on my M240. It was, well, embarrassing that my phone was much better for that. Glad they got rid of it on the later Ms.

Personally love the video function on my M240. Rarely use it but good to have as option especially when traveling. Never bad to have options - I know it doesn't fit the "Das Wesentliche" approach, but I never shot Leica M because of it.

Jan 24, 2023 at 07:57 PM

Matt Kerby
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

1bwana1 wrote:
But, if you can turn IBIS on or off it won't have a negative impact on how you shoot. In reality IBIS is one of those things you don't notice when shooting, except you can shoot at a lower SS and therefore lower ISO. It takes no management or thought when shooting.

I'm kind of a purist and agree with Allen mostly, But...I see your point and guess I agree, besides weight, or space what's the negative.

I have a Silver m10-R...Love it, best body I've shot.

Jan 24, 2023 at 08:29 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

1bwana1 wrote:
But, if you can turn IBIS on or off it won't have a negative impact on how you shoot. In reality IBIS is one of those things you don't notice when shooting, except you can shoot at a lower SS and therefore lower ISO. It takes no management or thought when shooting.

Yeah I know and I have heard if you don't want video don't turn it on or all the auto stuff don't turn it on. But I like the fact I have a real choice to buy if I don't want that. Everything else has all that stufff. Lotsa room to move around in that arena. Not so much with the camera I want to work with so good to have Leica digital M as a choice for me and those like me.

Jan 24, 2023 at 08:49 PM

freaklikeme
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Fred Miranda wrote:
The M11 reminds me of the M240 when Leica added lots of complexity and features they thought Leica M shooters wanted, including video. Well, the M10 fixed all that.
IBIS for the M? Perhaps useful for longer focal lengths but not really needed for the bread and butter 28/35/50 IMO.

Agreed. Their engineers managed a really harmonious implementation of the sensor in the M10 R between performance and output. From my limited use, it seems like they pushed the M11 out without achieving that harmony and it felt like a step backwards.

As much as I love IBIS, I don't think it's the right solution for M, not after the near universal praise for the svelte form of the M10. It also exponentially increases the complexity of in-camera corrections, and I doubt they'd see the benefit in signing up for that headache.

Jan 24, 2023 at 09:01 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

freaklikeme wrote:
Agreed. Their engineers managed a really harmonious implementation of the sensor in the M10 R between performance and output. From my limited use, it seems like they pushed the M11 out without achieving that harmony and it felt like a step backwards.

As much as I love IBIS, I don't think it's the right solution for M, not after the near universal praise for the svelte form of the M10. It also exponentially increases the complexity of in-camera corrections, and I doubt they'd see the benefit in signing up for that headache.

I see worse corner performance when using IBIS with my Sony cameras. It's especially more noticeable with wide angle lenses.
The brass top M cameras help with stabilization and the great high ISO performance from modern sensors should continue to improve. However, if Leica could do miracles and was able implement IBIS without adding extra weight or size to the body 'and' if the mechanism didn't affect IQ, I would not mind to have it, especially when using my tele lenses...but we know there is no free lunch.

Jan 24, 2023 at 09:42 PM

rscheffler
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

I can see fluctuating degrees of image sharpness degradation at 2x focal length shutter speeds with wide angle lenses on the M240 (only 24MP). In such marginal situations I end up over shooting to hopefully get something technically acceptable. The only way I can be assured of avoiding camera shake is to use a tripod. I'd rather not use a tripod with an M camera as much as possible, therefore would consider IBIS an acceptable tradeoff against slight losses in other performance parameters.

One great thing about Leica is they've never been shy about making niche products. The certainly could offer variants of the same model, such as a 'purist' M12 and more 'generalist' M12. I agree that IBIS risks affecting the current M10/11 form factor. But Leica also stated back in the M8 days that FF wasn't possible. So even if IBIS isn't possible now, it doesn't rule it out in the future.

Having recently added an IBIS capable body to my other system, IMO it's a great 'core' feature to have that expands the usability of the camera. For example, at an event this evening I shot some dusk exteriors and interiors in the 24-28mm range at around 1/6 second, hand held, that show no signs of camera shake.

I know some will disagree, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Jan 25, 2023 at 12:14 AM

soarfm
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Nobody is asking me, but here goes…

I had an M10-R and upgraded to the M11.

I love the M11 but don’t find the camera a very significant upgrade, save for a few things—it’s lighter (in black) and that means with the handgrip on it comes in at about the same weight as an M11 silver or an M10R, it has an electronic shutter which means I can shoot wide open in bright sunlight without ND’s.

The battery life is astounding on the M11, and the ability to top it up on the run with USB-C has made the second battery simply a safety net rather than a necessity.

I don’t find the extra megapixels compelling, nor the ability to shoot at different resolutions.

I find the colors just as pleasing as the M10R, or perhaps I’m not discerning enough to find any differences as inferior.

I also have an M10M that I’m quite happy with but I miss the battery life of the M11 and the electronic shutter. And, um, (trigger warning!) it is debatable whether the M10M outperforms the M11 monochrome conversions.

Jan 25, 2023 at 12:32 AM

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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

soarfm wrote:
I also have an M10M that I’m quite happy with but I miss the battery life of the M11 and the electronic shutter. And, um, (trigger warning!) it is debatable whether the M10M outperforms the M11 monochrome conversions.

Not at low ISO's so much but beyong ISO6400 it sure does. 25K on the M10M is actually usable.... Very usable.

I think of my M10M as the camera that doesn't need IBIS.

Gordon

Jan 25, 2023 at 01:16 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

IBIS has its pros and cons, agreed. It depends on the user and the camera usage if it is advantageous to have.

I personally believe that Leica instead is working hard to release a hybrid camera between rangefinder M and Leica Q. As I mentioned in my earlier comment like a M with EVF (or call it Q with exchangeable M mount). The SL series is good technically but remains below expected sales for Leica (for several reasons which were discussed in the past) - and they see that the M remains the most successful series followed by the Q series. Therefore I believe we will see such hybrid soon either this year or next year. Likely in parallel with a traditional M12 and OVF. Leica can avoid in-house competition with their own SL series and L-lenses by limiting such hybrid camera to M-mount lenses without AF. It would be a very attractive addition to new and existing Leica M shooters. I personally would highly consider buying such camera as next upgrade rather than a newer rangefinder M model - but this is again subjective preference. Main reason why I shy away from the Q is its fixed lens limitation.

Jan 25, 2023 at 08:04 AM

lifeandmylens
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

I’ve had a silver m10r, a silver m11 and now a black m11. Honestly the biggest difference for me now is the lighter weight of the black m11. I had to have a thumb grip on the silvers. But not on the black. The lighter weight is great. I haven’t noticed any softer images from the lower weight either.

I really only upgraded to the m11 because of GAS. Speaking of which, Fred, I think you should rename the buy and sell board - “The GAS Station”!

At first I missed the bottom plate, but quickly came to appreciate the new battery system and how long it lasts. I also hated that every used copy of the m10r had that plastic on the bottom plate. Made me feel like I took that off resale would tank.

If I was mostly a Sony/Canon/Nikon shooter and used the M just occasionally I might gravitate more towards the m10r as it’s a little more nostalgic. But with daily use I think the m11 checks more boxes with creature comforts.

I also think the m12, or m13 will have a built in EVF. Then everyone will say the m11 was the last true M. 😂

Jan 25, 2023 at 08:59 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

lifeandmylens wrote:
I also think the m12, or m13 will have a built in EVF. Then everyone will say the m11 was the last true M. 😂

I don't think this will happen. Leica will not abandon digital rangefinder cameras. The hybrid EVF-based M will be in parallel to the existing rangefinder M series. Biggest threat of such hybrid EVF-based M is the Q-series with fixed lens, but it might also compete in-house with the traditional M-series. But I don't think Leica can drag their feet further to avoid making such EVF-based camera to stay competitive in the market.

Jan 25, 2023 at 10:01 AM

gordec
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

I was about to upgrade from M10 to M10R. Then I started to notice some of the M10 BW conversions look really good. I know the poor highlight recovery is a weakness, but for some reason when you do BW conversion, it gives the pictures more contrast and pop. I can’t get that same look with my RX1Rii with post processing. I just kept the M10. I’m not sure if anyone else has noticed this.

Jan 25, 2023 at 11:39 AM

Desmolicious
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Leica will never sell an M with a built in EVF. Not when they can sell the clip on one for an extra $740.

Jan 25, 2023 at 12:57 PM

lifeandmylens
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Desmolicious wrote:
Not when they can sell the clip on one for an extra $740.

Good point

Jan 25, 2023 at 01:06 PM

retrofocus
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Desmolicious wrote:
Leica will never sell an M with a built in EVF. Not when they can sell the clip on one for an extra $740.

Rest assured that a hybrid Q/M with EVF will be super charged price-wise that they can easily make up for the clip add-on. And users will still buy the clip who prefer to have rangefinder M only. Problem for Leica is more the Q - its price will surely drop by such hybrid EVF release.

Jan 25, 2023 at 04:42 PM

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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

Not sure if it was mentioned but one downside to IBIS is typically that you increase the body size, and maybe even require increased lens sizes. The lens has to draw a large enough image and then the sensor needs to have enough room to move around within it to be effective.

I think one problem with IBIS and EVFs is that those things on their own aren't complicated, but bring along more menu settings, more reasons for future upgrades that really just brings you closer to "every other camera" out there. I have an A7R IV thats so good at nailing flawless shots that it's too sterile for me to be interested in ever really using it. I dont know what good an M that approaches this would be other than glass reuse.

Jan 25, 2023 at 04:56 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

retrofocus wrote:
I don't think this will happen. Leica will not abandon digital rangefinder cameras. The hybrid EVF-based M will be in parallel to the existing rangefinder M series. Biggest threat of such hybrid EVF-based M is the Q-series with fixed lens, but it might also compete in-house with the traditional M-series. But I don't think Leica can drag their feet further to avoid making such EVF-based camera to stay competitive in the market.

I think an EVF Leica is becoming less likely as time goes on. The main problem is that Leica has some pretty stiff competition for such a camera from Sony and now Nikon. With CV making a pretty wide set of quality manual focus lenses for Sony and looking like they are going to do so for Nikon those cameras provide pretty compelling options for people who want an EVF/manual focus combination. If that is what you want very soon the question will become what Leica can provide that Sony or Nikon cannot.

Nikon I think is going to provide an especially compelling alternative to a Leica EVF based camera. If Voigtlander builds a nice set of manual focus lenses for Nikon Z mount, which it looks like they will, that together with some interesting Chinese manual focus lenses, and a huge catalog of Nikon manual focus lenses will make Nikon a pretty compelling option for shooters who want an EVF and manual focus lenses. Nikon will also have the advantage that Voigtlander lenses and many of the Nikon manual focus lenses will have a extra focus mode with a box at the focus point that turns from red to green when what is on that focus point is in focus. I find this focus aid to be among the best for manual focus on an EVF camera. Nikon may even build a FF camera geared toward manual focus lenses (the Zfc is almost this type of camera but is APS-C). Together these developments suggest that Nikon can provide a pretty compelling alternative to a Leica EVF manual focus camera. I think enough of an alternative, that I don't think Leica will want to compete.

In contrast, a Leica M rangefinder really has no competition. If you want such a camera Leica is really your only choice and this puts Leica M cameras and lenses in a special place that can be easily maintained without having to compete. I can't see why Leica would want to start what is fairly significant change only to face pretty stiff competition.

Edited on Jan 25, 2023 at 06:10 PM · View previous versions

Jan 25, 2023 at 06:07 PM

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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

I'm all-in for IBIS. That might get me to upgrade from the M10-R. I can handhold significantly lower shutter speeds with my Fujifilm GFX100s than my M10-R and that irks me.

Jan 25, 2023 at 06:09 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Leica M10-R Black Chrome is now discontinued

I think it may be more likely we get a small, rangefinder-style L-mount before we get an EVF-M. It might end up being a bit M5-ish versus the M9/10/11, but I would be all-in for that. I don't really care if it has the SL top dials or the full-analog M dials, but I think the former would help it not compete against the M11.

Jan 25, 2023 at 06:17 PM

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