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Archive 2023 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?

  
 
jhapeman
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


Just a little nugget of information from BenQ's website. See the attached graph. Personally when I'm sitting at my desk, I am working at distance between 61 and 91 centimeters. When I've measured it, it's generally in the 70-80 cm range. That means I can quite easily resolve the 218ppi of my Retina screens. I am quite confident that Apple hasn't spent a ton of money creating screens with "wasted" resolution, and these numbers imply their ppi choice is based on a combination of a sweet spot of resolution and the fact that the 5K and 6K can be directly scaled without interpolation, so they can be super-detailed and sharp without being unreadably tiny. At the same time they are not wasting money making screens with "unusable" resolution, which also of course requires GPU power to drive, which also isn't free.









Jan 26, 2023 at 12:27 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


jhapeman wrote:
Right, so as I thought it's 100% his personal opinion. It's not based in any facts or a scientific analysis. So much depends on the size of the screen, your individual visual acuity and the distance at which you sit from your screen, whether your application or OS is doing any scaling/dithering vs. native output resolution. Personally I 100% disagree with this point; I find it vastly easier to assess critical sharpness at 100% with a high-DPI screen; you couldn't pay to go back to a lower resolution screen at this point.



Facts
Bigger monitors require you to sit back further to see the whole image
Eye acuity matters. Even if you have excellent vision, there is a point of diminishing return.
27" is about right for what most people like for seeing the whole screen at a sitting distance.
Scaling and dithering is not ideal for processing - you are better to use default

I am not saying he is right but I am saying he has applied science and facts. It is likely right for an average vision acuity - eg most.

The other person I really respect that does lots of printing is mark Materrnich - he also indicates the best resolution is 100 and it is not ideal to edit at higher than 100 dpi. And recommends a very tight dpi range around 100.

So I think it's better than an opinion. Its a fact informed opinion.



Jan 26, 2023 at 07:10 PM
jhapeman
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


Scott Stoness wrote:
Facts
Bigger monitors require you to sit back further to see the whole image
Eye acuity matters. Even if you have excellent vision, there is a point of diminishing return.
27" is about right for what most people like for seeing the whole screen at a sitting distance.
Scaling and dithering is not ideal for processing - you are better to use default

I am not saying he is right but I am saying he has applied science and facts. It is likely right for an average vision acuity - eg most.

The other person I really respect that does lots of printing is mark
...Show more

He quite literally states its his opinion. They're absolutely no "science and facts" in his justification.

The BenQ chart above is based on science and facts--average visual acuity, the optimal percent/angular area a screen should take up so you don't have to move your head much (although that number is very subjective and not "scientific" in any way). The chart clearly shows that number is quite a bit higher than 100, and closer to double that. It seems like there's a lot of justification for a lower resolution by those who don't get to use a higher resolution because it's not readily available. The Windows/PC world has standardized around 2K/4K/8K which is an issue because 8K takes a massive amount of GPU power to push and even in a 32" screen is a very high 280ppi, well beyond our ability to resolve even at 61 cm. Meanwhile on the PC side of the world Apple is considered odd for choosing to go with 5K and 6K resolution and the retina screens, but they do have a logic behind it.

BTW, the average desktop is 36" deep or 91 centimeters--no doubt why BenQ has that number in their chart. That means average visual acuity should be able to resolve 191ppi, some better then and some worse. So 5K in a 27" monitor or 6K in a 32" is right in a sweet spot for that viewing distance and well within the normal ranges of angle of view, distance from the screen, etc. Those are actual figures and data, not opinion. I still haven't seen similar data that rounds that down to 100 ppi for any good reason. The only "good" reason is that for years 2K resolution (1440p) was considered HD and a 2K 27" monitor was big and "professional" and 109ppi.

What the facts and numbers do show is that if you have average or better visual acuity there is absolutely no wasted resolution even up to almost 300ppi, with a clear sweet spot around 200ppi.



Jan 26, 2023 at 08:11 PM
dclark
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


jhapeman wrote:
.....BenQ's website. See the attached graph....

I can't find it on their web site. Can you provide the URL.






Jan 26, 2023 at 09:55 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


4K on 15 inch at 27" viewing distance ... dances with full image and 100% - 200%. YMMV


Jan 26, 2023 at 11:12 PM
dclark
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


RustyBug wrote:
4K on 15 inch at 27" viewing distance ... dances with full image and 100% - 200%. YMMV


What does that mean



Jan 26, 2023 at 11:42 PM
Mujabad123
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


I have a 27" 5k iMac next to a 27" 2560x1440p monitor. I use the Mac for viewing. All photographic stuff (working on images/prepare for printing/etc.), is done on the 2560x1440p monitor.
Simple, best of both worlds.



Jan 27, 2023 at 03:20 AM
jhapeman
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


dclark wrote:
I can't find it on their web site. Can you provide the URL.


It's buried in an odd article, one on gaming monitors. In their FAQ on monitors for photography they only say you should use a monitor with a minimum of 100ppi and that more is better, but they don't put a ceiling on it. Of course they are happy to have you buy a 27" or 32" 4K monitor, like their two specialized for photography, which have 163 ppi and 137 ppi respectively. If it were easier/more economical to make 8K 32 monitors you can bet they'd be selling one and telling you of its virtues.

https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/why-32-inch-4k-monitor-is-your-best-choice-for-console-gaming.html

Look, if you're getting old and have presbyopia I can get thinking it's wasted but honestly if that's the case you should also be wearing glasses to help you assess sharpness, so it's a bit of a moot point IMO. I get it that some people might not like a high-ppi screen, but there is no mathematical factual reason to not have a screen that has a ppi close to the resolving power of our eyes, and that means 5K at 27", 6K at 32". Even 4K at 27" is 163 ppi, much higher than the 100 ppi people are advocating on this thread, and yet you'd be very hard-pressed to find any 27" monitor today that isn't 4K, particularly one targeted at photographers and graphics professionals.



Jan 27, 2023 at 08:43 AM
Mujabad123
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


Well, I would look at Eizo if you want monitors that are particularly "targeted at photographers and graphics professionals". Beside 4k they also offer 27" 1440p monitors. They have always done that and continue to do so. Very easy to find a 2560x1440p Eizo monitor. Specifically targeted at photographers and graphic professionals. If you want the best of the best for photographers......buy Eizo.


Jan 27, 2023 at 08:53 AM
jhapeman
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


Mujabad123 wrote:
Well, I would look at Eizo if you want monitors that are particularly "targeted at photographers and graphics professionals". Beside 4k they also offer 27" 1440p monitors. They have always done that and continue to do so. Very easy to find a 2560x1440p Eizo monitor. Specifically targeted at photographers and graphic professionals. If you want the best of the best for photographers......buy Eizo.


Meh, I find them highly overrated, and yes, I've used them. 10+ years ago they were definitely the best choice, but across the board the options for highly color-accurate displays has massively increased and for the price, Eizo doesn't seem to offer any real advantage any more. Like a lot of things in the photography world people seem to cling to old concepts as the technology continues to evolve and move on.



Jan 27, 2023 at 10:03 AM
Mujabad123
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


Luckily Eizo is also evolves and moves on.
And so it isn't difficult to find a 27" 1440p monitor at all.
Can you provide a link to a review or any test that says there' s a monitor better suited for professional photography than "that old concept" of Eizo? If so, I would really like to read that. I' m not talking about viewing (for that those 5k screens are superb), but for actually working on photo files (editing/culling/preparing for print/and so on). In short, a monitor for work.
I can buy an Eizo for less money than that beautiful Mac Studio Display. So..I think it' s not really overpriced when comparing to that 5k screen.



Jan 27, 2023 at 10:20 AM
jhapeman
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


Mujabad123 wrote:
Luckily Eizo is also evolves and moves on.
And so it isn't difficult to find a 27" 1440p monitor at all.
Can you provide a link to a review or any test that says there' s a monitor better suited for professional photography than "that old concept" of Eizo? If so, I would really like to read that. I' m not talking about viewing (for that those 5k screens are superb), but for actually working on photo files (editing/culling/preparing for print/and so on). In short, a monitor for work.
I can buy an Eizo for less money than that beautiful Mac Studio
...Show more

You can search yourself for Eizo vs. whatever, that's not my interest, it's yours. My point is that almost no other manufacturer is making non 4K 27" displays. The fact that one niche company does so is a moot point; the exception does not define the norm.




Jan 27, 2023 at 10:52 AM
Mujabad123
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


Well, I did search and could not find any that said there where better monitors for photography than Eizo. Not even one.
You seem so convinced and sure, by saying that "Eizo doesn't seem to offer any real advantages any more" (literally what you said), and also speaking of "old concepts".
Because of that, I thought you could back up that statement by providing a link to a solid test/review. Seems to me, you can not.
You can not....and I can not. All tests/reviews compering Eizo with whatever other photo monitor I can find, speak of Eizo as the better one for photography. Over and over again.
My point is, that maybe Eizo is still worth its money?
Maybe it does offer real advantages?

I agree that 4k is now more fashionable than ever (even 5k/6k...and in a few years probably 8k), but luckily there are large non-niche companies that produce non-4k monitors.
And yes....more than one.
You can search yourself ofcourse.











Jan 27, 2023 at 12:41 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


My office computer got a new display a few months ago, it's 27" and it's 2560x1440, the same resolution as my photography monitor. I just looked up and found several different brands of monitors with this resolution and size. These include Samsung, HP, Lenovo and Eizo. I merely looked at one shop; probably there are more.

When I got my current Eizo, I chose between slightly smaller 4K and 2560x1440 27" and decided to get the lower resolution at the larger size. Since I use the screen for editing photos for printing, I wanted a monitor which is intended to be at its best at a lower brightness level (90 nit in my case) and one where the shadows are well rendered (since I would not be setting the display to high brightness, to have good dynamic range, the shadows become particularly important). I am impressed by the Eizo's homogeneity and constancy over time, and the excellent match to prints. I don't miss having higher resolution really. For me the monitor is not really the final viewing device; I use it for editing.

I understand that over time, the resolution of displays tends to increase. I don't mind this but I kind of drag my feet, prioritising other properties such as consistency (over time also), lack of reflections, and how well it can use the shadow areas. I realize that many monitors now aim to be as bright as possible but this is not a good thing for matching to print. There are high dynamic range displays now, which consume several times more electricity than standard dynamic range monitors. How does this fit in the green transition, and managing the planet's environment? I am again dragging my feet here, preferring constancy of some things rather than everything changing all the time and people running to get the latest thing.

However, if HDR becomes a norm in photography and the majority of displays start supporting it (I mean real HDR, not HDR-ish) then I too must adapt. In that case it is possible that print matching will become more compromised as people get used to extremely bright displays and prints do not give this kind of a feeling of "being there", so if this is the direction we are going in, it may be that printing in high quality is eventually lost. But I like the relative permanence and having a finite set of images in printed format rather than the constant flow of images viewed for an instant and then forgotten.

Sorry I seem to have drifted off topic.



Jan 27, 2023 at 02:19 PM
eyal
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


I think this will be my next display to use alongside the Eizo CS2740 - Dell 32" 6k monitor

I have found on the 27" that I favor the 3308x1692 resolution which is a scaled 6k.

So outputting to a native 6k at the larger 32" size would be perfect...I think

https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/3/23537262/dell-6k-monitor-apple-4k-webcam-ces



Jan 27, 2023 at 04:03 PM
jhapeman
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


eyal wrote:
I think this will be my next display to use alongside the Eizo CS2740 - Dell 32" 6k monitor

I have found on the 27" that I favor the 3308x1692 resolution which is a scaled 6k.

So outputting to a native 6k at the larger 32" size would be perfect...I think

https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/3/23537262/dell-6k-monitor-apple-4k-webcam-ces


I can confirm that 6K on 32" is gorgeous and if your eyesight is good enough for the 218 ppi you will love it. It's great to see another option to the ProDisplay XDR! Can't wait to see reviews on this new monitor.



Jan 27, 2023 at 05:19 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


dclark wrote:
What does that mean


My laptop is 15", and the display is 27" from my eyes. The display resolution is 4K.

When I view a 24MP image sized to fill the screen (for example, easy math), the 2160 px vertical dimension is 8 inches high. That makes it about 270 ppi when viewing the full image. my vision is approximately 20/15 (corrected).

To the point of exceeding the ability for the native eye to judge sharpness detail at that resolution, it is necessary for me to zoom in to 100% to judge technical details with scrutiny. I have my left / right buttons set to 100% and 250% with my culling software, so I can easily see the technical detail that is NOT able to be seen when viewing the full image at 270 ppi. I'm typically in the 20-33 % range when viewing the entire image (file dependent).

So, yes, in order to view 100% (or more), I have to "dance" in / out at times. My present display is touch screen, so I have my choice of pinch / zoom on the touch pad or display. Or, I can use either my right left buttons, mouse cursor, or keystrokes to change the view.

Although, it really isn't that often I "dance". Mostly, I've checked it for resolution when culling, so I really don't need to do that very often when processing. Just occasionally when making aggressive edits, or cleaning up dust bunnies, etc.

I guess my point is that "where there's a will ... there's a way", and a bit of "horses for courses", i.e. YMMV.



Jan 27, 2023 at 05:33 PM
bobby350z
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


I wish there was 4:3 format monitors as that's what I shoot natively. I am also happy with Matte screen on the BenQ. Apple displays look fine but too glossy for me. I shoot GFX, 100MP files. Rarely have sharpness problems. Don't need to cull much either unless I really messed up. Can't shoot action with that camera, so it helps. I would like a 36" 4:3 display. 4k on 27" is too small for me. Can't imagine doing my edits on my MBP screen. Maybe I am getting old.


Jan 28, 2023 at 09:23 AM
dclark
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


jhapeman wrote:
It's buried in an odd article, one on gaming monitors. In their FAQ on monitors for photography they only say you should use a monitor with a minimum of 100ppi and that more is better, but they don't put a ceiling on it. Of course they are happy to have you buy a 27" or 32" 4K monitor, like their two specialized for photography, which have 163 ppi and 137 ppi respectively. If it were easier/more economical to make 8K 32 monitors you can bet they'd be selling one and telling you of its virtues.

https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/why-32-inch-4k-monitor-is-your-best-choice-for-console-gaming.html

Look, if you're getting old
...Show more

Thanks for the URL.
Anyone with some experience in image science will quickly conclude something is wrong when they see the BenQ table you posted. That’s why I asked for the URL so I could see what they had done.
A quick summary is that the table is off by a factor of 2, and consequently your comments about monitor PPI are also off by a factor of 2.

The table BenQ provides is easily reduced to a simple formula, "Max PPI" = 572 / (viewing distance in feet). That is of course the kind of formula that would describe the visual acuity of the human eye-brain system.

The BenQ table you are using seems to be almost exactly 2X the formula for 20/20 visual acuity (see Wikipedia). What I get from the definition of 20/20 vision is "Average visual acuity PPI" = 286/(viewing distance in feet). This is nothing new. Measurements of human visual acuity have been made and documented in the scientific literature for many years, and are the basis for the long standing conclusion that display pixel densities above 100-140 PPI have greatly diminished value for display of continuous tone images. Human visual acuity is not changing anytime soon, regardless of advances in display technology.

I checked to see how BenQ produced their figures and found that they use that the eye can resolve about 60 lines per degree of view. That is correct if by 60 lines you mean 30 black lines and 30 white lines (i.e. 60 alternating bands). The more unambiguous correct statement is that the eye can resolve high contrast bands that are separated by ~1 arc-minute. That is essentially identical to the definition of 20/20 vision acuity which is at a distance of 20 feet the average eye can resolve high contrast bands that are 1.75mm apart. BenQ seems to have taken 60 lines per degree to mean 60 black and 60 white lines. Regardless, they got it wrong by a factor of 2x.

It is also well known that visual acuity is better for vector graphics than continuous tone photos. That’s why you will notice pixelation in fonts at higher pixel densities than you will notice pixelation in photos, and why high PPI displays show noticeable improvements in text and other graphics even though any improvement in photos is harder to see. That means visual acuity is a bit worse than 286/distance(ft) for contone photographic images.

The result of using the incorrect table is that your comments on the monitor pixel density that the average eye can resolve need to be revised downward by a factor of 2.
For example the statement "What the facts and numbers do show is that if you have average or better visual acuity there is absolutely no wasted resolution even up to almost 300ppi, with a clear sweet spot around 200ppi" needs to be revised to "What the facts and numbers do show is that if you have average or better visual acuity there is absolutely no wasted resolution even up to almost 150ppi, with a clear sweet spot around 100ppi".

It’s interesting to note that in the BenQ article, just above the posted table, they say “Considering these limitations and the human eye's resolving power, a good range for monitors is 100 to 150 PPI.“ That’s the correct conclusion but their adjacent table says that would mean sitting 3.8-5.7 feet from the display! They seem to know enough about the science to know the right conclusion, even though it has an obvious conflict with their table. I don’t know why that did not trigger them to check their table and correct it. The inconsistency should also trigger readers to be cautious about the reliability of the information.

It’s true that the 2X higher pixel densities can be useful if the viewer moves 2X closer. The usual viewing distance for monitors is around 20-24”. If the viewer temporarily moves closer to 10-12” the ability to resolve pixels doubles and image can be quickly assessed. It’s also true that some people have above average visual acuity (about half are above average, about 80% think they are above average). A very few have 20/10 vision so the table would be correct for them.



Jan 29, 2023 at 03:57 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Wide Gamut Monitor, DCI-P3 or still Adobe RGB?


dclark wrote:
Thanks for the URL.
Anyone with some experience in image science will quickly conclude something is wrong when they see the BenQ table you posted. That’s why I asked for the URL so I could see what they had done.
A quick summary is that the table is off by a factor of 2, and consequently your comments about monitor PPI are also off by a factor of 2.

The table BenQ provides is easily reduced to a simple formula, "Max PPI" = 572 / (viewing distance in feet). That is of course the kind of formula that would describe the visual
...Show more

Great post

- and I will summarize it for myself - an approximate 100 dpi monitor is optimal for those that sit at a normal distance from the screen editing and have normal eyesight. Those who lean in [so they are only seeing a portion of the screen] and have higher acuity (the young) might be able to use a higher dpi in editing.

[As you have said, photography is not about line pairs and the 100-150 dpi range is likely high for photography editing. Lets assume 80% resulting in 80-120dpi is optimal given most people do not have 20/20 vision and we are not editing line pairs much. eg Anyone over 45 on this forum is likely using progressives and editing photos]

- A 2560 x 1440 27" delivers ~100 dpi in a space that you can see the whole picture at once from a normal viewing distance



Jan 30, 2023 at 09:58 AM
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