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A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

  
 
GMPhotography
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p.7 #1 · p.7 #1 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Here is the part that bugs the crap out of me. People answering and commenting not even owning either one or some other system. WTF do they know that we as actual owners do not. Im out of bed now. Don't get my jets roared up.

Have fun I go to golf course now. Watch those Hawks all day. Im going to order the TC 1.4 in a week or so. Like to go shoot those things plus some Bob Cats. I could use a view camera on those bad boys. They don't move.



Jan 27, 2023 at 09:58 AM
1bwana1
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p.7 #2 · p.7 #2 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Douglas L wrote:
I haven't seen anyone saying the A7RV can't shoot BIF, even an A7R can do BIF at 1 FPS, if you are skilled and LUCKY. All the "A1 fanatics" are saying is for BIF and fast action the A1 is still better because of benefits offered by the stacked sensor. I don't understand why the trolls fail to see that, oh, because they are trolls. Somebody needs to have a life


In fact I posted in this thread about my friend who pretty much only shoots birds who prefers the A7RV for his bird photography. So I know it can be done. If he were a member here he could post some very fine BIF images shot with an A7RV or A7RIV which he shot until recently. But even he acknowledges that he suffers a hit rate, and timing loss, especially in low light or difficult backgrounds because of his choice. He just prefers to have the cropping ability the A7RV provides.



Jan 27, 2023 at 10:47 AM
Douglas L
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p.7 #3 · p.7 #3 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


1bwana1 wrote:
In fact I posted in this thread about my friend who pretty much only shoots birds who prefers the A7RV for his bird photography. So I know it can be done. If he were a member here he could post some very fine BIF images shot with an A7RV or A7RIV which he shot until recently. But even he acknowledges that he suffers a hit rate, and timing loss, especially in low light or difficult backgrounds because of his choice. He just prefers to have the cropping ability the A7RV provides.


I shot plenty of BIF (big birds) with my A7RIII and A7RIV with mechanical shutter, it's definitely doable with pretty good results, but the A1 just brings it to a different level with the stacked sensor in this particular application, which is the title of this thread. Someone just keeps defending his purchase of the A7RV. No one says the A7RV is a bad camera, in fact it's an excellent camera that is not as good as the A1 for BIF, that's all.



Jan 27, 2023 at 11:51 AM
galenapass
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p.7 #4 · p.7 #4 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


arbitrage wrote:
I struggle to understand why you are in this thread. You don't shoot BIF. This thread has nothing to do with what you shoot. You seem like you are dead set in trying to defend your purchase of an A7RV. There is nothing wrong with the A7RV and it is probably a better camera for your type of shooting.
BUT...this thread is titled A1 v A7RV FOR BIF. Your posts here serve nothing towards that topic.

I will have the A7RV in my hands by April 1st. I'd buy it now but I want to test it on the challenging swallows IF
...Show more

Great. I would like to hear your thoughts about the A7RV when you get a chance - an opinion from someone who actually shoots birds is valuable. I want to add another camera to my existing A1 and I am thinking of the A7RV ...or just another A1.



Jan 27, 2023 at 02:35 PM
billsnature
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p.7 #5 · p.7 #5 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Isaacheus wrote:
Do you find the a1 faster in operation outside of bif or are they fairly comparable there?

And taking the birding side out of the equation, would you still recommend the a1 or are there advantages for other things in the a7rv?

Thanks


There are things on the A1 I like better such as the AF and Drive controls being controlled by dial as opposed to button/scroll or menu. The A1 is generally higher speed, but I don't think that is meaningful for anything but BIF, airshows, and maybe car racing. The A1 seems better with 200-600 and in particular when 1.4X is attached. Electronic shutter is much better and faster scan rate.

There are many advantages to the A7R V. It does pick up AF targets faster than A1 and eye tracking seems sticker. Dynamic AF on all lenses is great. The flip screen will be useful to some (not me). I am excited to try bug AF mode but its winter here. I will use the focus stacking in both macro and landscape which is not present on the A1, but can be done manually. I could see that if you were not doing Bird/BIF/Airshow stuff how one could easily pick the A7R V as the winner, but I do like A1 a bit more for my range of work.



Jan 27, 2023 at 10:44 PM
osv2
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p.7 #6 · p.7 #6 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


the a1 is designed for pro use, and it includes pro features that no other camera has.

the 1/400th-1/500th flash sync speed for instance can be important for event/portrait shooting, and also sports:

https://alphauniverse.com/stories/alpha-1-why-fast-flash-sync-matters/

wrt sports, 30fps raw is a huge step up from 20fps, and it's something that i think only sports shooters and maybe some bif guys can truly understand.

same with the blackout-free evf on the a1; the a7r5 certainly has it's advantages but after owning an a1 i never want to use an unstacked sensor camera for sports.

a1 vs. a7r5 is not a comparison because they are different tools; you can't pound nails with a hacksaw, and if you can't immediately understand why that is, stick with the a7r5 it looks like a great camera in it's own right.



Jan 27, 2023 at 11:36 PM
arbitrage
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p.7 #7 · p.7 #7 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


I don't doubt the A7RV could be the better camera for bird portraits. That new AI chip with body, head, eye is probably better at picking out birds with distractions around them and may be better sticking to them on perches.

I can't wait till that chip is put in an A1II (seems like a given) and has the power of 6x (or more if they increase it) the AF calculations per second from the stacked sensor.

If they can combine that with a "ProCapture" type mode and all the other extra features the A7IV/A7RV have over the A1 then I don't think I can ask for anything more



Jan 29, 2023 at 07:09 AM
GMPhotography
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p.7 #8 · p.7 #8 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


What I think would be nice to do is put the The a7rv in a A1 series. Maybe it will lose like 5ps second to like 25 and maybe the buffer may hit sooner but I think many would like that extra 11mpx bump not to mention the APSC mode bump and of course put on the feature sets like the AI AF stuff and such. Honestly the color seems to be better as well over the A1. I loved the A! no question but updating it I would be interested if it had these extra feature sets. My mistake was buying the A7IV its not serving me much service. I want a travel so maybe go back to a A7C, im happy as heck with the A7rv


Jan 29, 2023 at 08:14 AM
Stoffer
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p.7 #9 · p.7 #9 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


arbitrage wrote:
If they can combine that with a "ProCapture" type mode and all the other extra features the A7IV/A7RV have over the A1 then I don't think I can ask for anything more


To be honest, it would be kind of embarrassing if Sony didnít add a pre capture feature to A2 - that camera is already built to excel with the feature with the ES, fast readout and big buffer. But we are talking Sony, so who knows.



Jan 29, 2023 at 11:50 AM
dclark
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p.7 #10 · p.7 #10 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Pre-capture mode is the big missing capability of the A1. It tops my wish list and I don't recall what is second. But I don't see why that cannot be added with a firmware upgrade to the A1, no need to wait for the A1ii. Although it tops my wish list, I think the probability for it in the A1ii is at best 50%, and as a firmware update for the A1 about 0.01%.

Back on the topic of this thread, the AF capabilities of the AI processor in the A7R5 would clearly be an upgrade for the A1, but would probably have small impact on action shots. Regardless, it seems like a sure thing for the A1ii and it will make a big difference on a lot of shots. Superb technology.





Jan 29, 2023 at 12:06 PM
 


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wordfool
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p.7 #11 · p.7 #11 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Stoffer wrote:
To be honest, it would be kind of embarrassing if Sony didnít add a pre capture feature to A2 - that camera is already built to excel with the feature with the ES, fast readout and big buffer. But we are talking Sony, so who knows.


Canon and Nikon took their sweet time to add pre-shot (or pro capture or whatever else it's called) to their lineup considering Oly has had it since, what, 2016? And Sony has taken this long to add focus stacking to a camera, so I think we can expect pre-shot in about 2025



Jan 29, 2023 at 02:35 PM
seaSharp
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p.7 #12 · p.7 #12 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


wordfool wrote:
Canon and Nikon took their sweet time to add pre-shot (or pro capture or whatever else it's called) to their lineup considering Oly has had it since, what, 2016? And Sony has taken this long to add focus stacking to a camera, so I think we can expect pre-shot in about 2025


Seeing as it's already 2023, I think 2025 is a bit optimistic. I'm thinking by the A3 (AIII?) in, say 2028, though they might deign to give it to us. By then, of course, there will tough competition in the birding field (hehe) from the third version of Apple's AR glasses operating in concert with a 900mm equivalent periscope lens on a version of the iPhone Ultra Pro Extreme Max that mounts to a hat or something. So Sony needs to get cracking ; )




Jan 29, 2023 at 11:26 PM
turn6260
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p.7 #13 · p.7 #13 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


I can't say how much better the A7RV auto-focus is compared to the A7RIII as I upgraded from the A7RII. But I can say compared to the A7RII it is simply unbelievable!. I had thought that going from 5 to 10 frames/sec would be nice but the frame rate increase is nothing compared to how the A7RV acquires a target and then locks onto it.

Just got back from a cruise and decided to leave my Sony 100-400 GM lens at home. There were some birds flying along side the ship and catching the flying fish when the opportunity arose. The longest lens I had with me was my Batis 135 f2.8 so I selected Birds in the auto-focus mode along with AFC focusing. Man! as soon as the bird entered the frame, the camera would put a rectangular box on it and within 1 sec, it would change to an eye focus box on the bird. and these birds were flying pretty fast. I was amazed; but then I've been using an A7RII since 2015.

Anyway, here's a grab shot that you can see. I cropped the same picture and you can clearly see that birds eye is sharp. I'm truly blown away with the auto focus engine on the A7RV. the picture was shot at F2.8.

Here's the link to the photo: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0fGWxe86GB9tXG




Jan 31, 2023 at 12:30 PM
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p.7 #14 · p.7 #14 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Since my friend 1bwana1 mentioned me I thought I would throw my two cents relative to using the A7R5 for BIF. First a little background. I started shooting birds and BIF with a Sony A77ii and a Tamron 150-600 G1 lens. That combo really challenged your photographic skills to be successful. When Sony announced the 200-600 lens I knew that was the lens for me and that it was time to move to a high resolution full frame body. That was about the same time that the A7R4 was announced. I decided that was going to be my setup for birding. However, I was held back in taking the plunge initially when I read reports in this forum of problems getting those two pieces of gear to work well together, particularly for BIF. So I did a lot of research and additional reading, watching YouTube videos, etc. to see why people were having issues and how I could make that combo work. My research indicated not everyone was having issues and many were actually pleased with the combo. So I took the plunge, and thankfully quickly found settings and techniques that gave me very satisfying results.

While I came to love that combo and my results with it, the A7R4 did have several things I thought could be improved. When the A7R5 was announced every one of these deficiencies was addressed and I quickly upgraded. After having it since Christmas Eve of last year it has exceeded all my expectations and I couldn't be happier. The AF system is the best I have ever used, the enhanced processing speed and subject recognition and tracking is very effective and made once difficult shots very easy to achieve.

Relative to the A1, the only thing missing in the A7R5 is the stacked sensor, which for me it not that important in the way I shoot. For me the most essential birding essential is reach and crop ability. I shot the A7R4, and now with the A7R5, in crop mode the majority of time giving me essentially a 900 mm reach, and the added resolution and ability to crop over the A1 was more important than frame rate. I typically have over 1,000 images to go through after a birding outing, which would probably be over 3,000 images if shooting at the A1's higher frame rate. There is no doubt that the A1 is a fantastic camera and can do everything extremely well, but at this moment I feel the A7R5 has the speed and AF performance to meet my needs. For my money the A7R5 is just a better value at this moment.

To answer the OP's original question, can the A7R5 be an effective BIF camera? I would definitely say Yes. Are there some scenarios where the A1 may be better, I would say Yes also, but currently I feel those cases are relatively few and most would be well served with the A7R5.

Since I think pictures tell the story better, I have included some shots from my last outing. I was at a channel that empties into the ocean with the width of the channel just under 350 yards. Most of the bird pics at low tide will be from 50 - 150 yards. I like to see the birds up close and in detail, so I shoot at 900 mm (crop mode) and crop the heck out of the resulting images to make it look like I was a lot closer. I shoot 8 FPS which gives me live mode in viewfinder. That is just what works for me. These pics are ~1 MB JPEGs reduced from 26 MP originals. Intended to demonstrate some challenging scenarios.




This was from about 110 yards and significantly cropped.

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    200 ISO    -1.3 EV  






Snap shot of hawk leaving perch in palm tree.

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    400 ISO    -0.7 EV  






Incoming Willet

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    200 ISO    -1.3 EV  






Little Blue Heron flying behind foreground bushes

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    1000 ISO    -0.7 EV  






Head on close fast moving Seagull

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    250 ISO    -1.3 EV  






Small fast moving Plover

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    640 ISO    -0.7 EV  






Close up crop on quick moving Willet






Extreme long distance shot over 200 yards and heavily cropped

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    320 ISO    -1.3 EV  






Long distance shot of incoming Egret

  ILCE-7RM5    600mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    200 ISO    -1.3 EV  



Edited on Feb 04, 2023 at 12:10 AM · View previous versions



Feb 02, 2023 at 09:23 PM
dcisive
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p.7 #15 · p.7 #15 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Smart move keeping those shutter speeds up. Sure adds some insurance of a nice sharp shot. I plan on investigating this some more. I have a gimbal arriving tomorrow and hope to work with that as well.


Feb 02, 2023 at 09:41 PM
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p.7 #16 · p.7 #16 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Fast shutter speeds are key. I shoot everything handheld. I shoot in manual selecting shutter speed and aperture with Auto ISO between 100 - 3200. I have found A7R5 to produce very accurate exposures and good white balance relative to A7R4 minimizing scope of post processing adjustments. The A7R5 feels like a hot rod compared to A7R4. The most noticeable improvement is never getting a "can't perform this function" message when trying to change a setting while buffer is clearing. Overall handling and responsiveness is much improved over predecessor. Rear screen increased size and resolution with full touch controls and ability to position screen in "protect" mode is very welcomed and can be used to extend battery life. I was able to shoot 1625 images using only 80% of battery. Bird and BIF photography is my hobby and I do it for my own enjoyment. I do not expect my gear to adapt to my expectations but for me to learn how to take best advantage of its capabilities. The only person I have to please with images is myself, and I appreciate that every image I take is unique in it's own way, and often the only image like it in the whole world. The images are a reminder of the experience, the location, and the bird and I just enjoy it for what it is. I spend the time to get out and look for new subjects and activities to photograph and just relish the opportunity to have this kind of technology assist me in that endeavor. As individuals we all have preferences and varying criteria on choosing our equipment. The perfect solution is what works best for our shooting style and goals. I am happy to share my experience with my gear, but would never say it it the best solution for someone else. To each his own as they say. It would be pretty boring if everybody used the same setup and we did not have the wonderful variety of choices we have today and new ones coming down the road. It's what makes this hobby so fun. Happy shooting!


Feb 03, 2023 at 12:48 AM
twodees
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p.7 #17 · p.7 #17 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


I've used the a7r5 a little over the last week for otters with bare 600GM and 600GM + 1.4x and it did a better job in respect of eye acquisition than the a1, not a massive difference but noticeable.


Feb 03, 2023 at 01:40 AM
Tony Ross
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p.7 #18 · p.7 #18 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


nobody23 wrote:
BIF with an A7rV results very likely in bended wings due to read out speed...


Not true. Well, that would only be if you were using e-shutter, but the only way to shoot birds in flight with a camera like this is with mechanical shutter, and you won't get significant rolling shutter with the mechanical shutter. I have used the A7RV, and the A7RIV before that, with mechanical shutter, to photograph birds in flight.

The A1 makes it easier because you can capture a lot more frames, but it's certainly doable with either of the 60Mpixel cameras. The A7RIV is the most difficult.

However, the A7RV can do something else, too: you can capture butterflies in flight - that's much harder because of how they fly.



Feb 03, 2023 at 04:43 AM
magiclight
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p.7 #19 · p.7 #19 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Just upgraded from the R4 to the R5 yesterday and spent the day shooting birds. Definitely and improvement over the R4.

The AI is very useful and quite sticky. I was really impressed when the AI could pick out the eye of a NZ black swan which I couldn't see through the view finder. The R4 would have focused on the background water for sure.

With BIFs it performed quite well. While tracking, it never lost the bird as the R4 would have. However the BIF keeper rate was not as high as I would like (wished for). Very early days for me so far. I will need to tinker with the AF/AI settings before casting my final judgment

I cant comment on the A1 from experience as I have never owned one. I will leave that to the informed A1 BIF users to comment.



Feb 03, 2023 at 07:36 PM
GMPhotography
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p.7 #20 · p.7 #20 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Regardless of camera the setting need to be spot on just try to find your happy spot. Both great cams you folks donít know how lucky we are


Feb 03, 2023 at 08:04 PM
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