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Archive 2023 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

  
 
dclark
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Photosection wrote:
Thanks for the link Dave, do you know if Fuji suffer from this too?
I don't know much about Fuji cameras so I won't speculate
Has this electronic shutter issue ever been noticed on the A1
The 12 row readout image defect is rarely noticed on the A9, and even more rarely noticed on the A1, but it's there.
Rolling shutter distortion is also there, but for cameras that have fast shutter curtain speeds (electronic or mechanical) it is rarely noticed.
if not, that for my money is the main reason I'd opt for the A1, and the faster flash sync speed.
I use the A1 ES about 99.99% of the time.
Jan 25, 2023 at 10:53 AM
evanhanded
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


chez wrote:
Speaking of hummingbirds, when I used to have feeders, they got so tame I could put my fingers out next to the feeder and the birds would land on my finger as they drank the nectar. First thing in the morning if I don’t fill their feeders the hummers would fly right up to me and bug me until I fill their feeders.

I highly doubt any noise I make would have scared them off.

I still have feeders. Maybe you offered better fare than I. My hummingbirds are way more finicky. If I set up a camera on remote next to a flower...they will accept it if it stays silent. Mechanical shutter noise? They leave.
Jan 26, 2023 at 05:36 PM
chez
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


evanhanded wrote:
I still have feeders. Maybe you offered better fare than I. My hummingbirds are way more finicky. If I set up a camera on remote next to a flower...they will accept it if it stays silent. Mechanical shutter noise? They leave.

I have coffee on my deck daily as the hummingbirds feed. I've become one of the boys as the little buggers buzz around.
Jan 26, 2023 at 05:57 PM
dcisive
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Oh and I sinned. I shot a poor old incompetent slow electronic shutter camera, the A7R5, and I sinned twice, shot it in a single shot mode no bursts. My 3rd sin, it's actually in focus how dare it do such a thing with it's paltry focus capabilities. Hand held no less oh nooooo.....I have to repent apparently.




  ILCE-7RM5    FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS lens    391mm    f/6.3    1/800s    125 ISO    0.0 EV  
Jan 26, 2023 at 06:50 PM
1bwana1
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


dcisive wrote:
Oh and I sinned. I shot a poor old incompetent slow electronic shutter camera, the A7R5, and I sinned twice, shot it in a single shot mode no bursts. My 3rd sin, it's actually in focus how dare it do such a thing with it's paltry focus capabilities. Hand held no less oh nooooo.....I have to repent apparently.

Well, at least you and the camera were fast enough to get them going away. The image might appeal to all the "Duck Butt" fanatics. The rest of the wildlife image community, not so much.

No need to repent, duck butt images are not a sin, just bad photography.


Sorry don't get upset, it is a joke based on the obvious, I just couldn't resist.
Jan 26, 2023 at 09:10 PM
aboutthelight
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


dcisive wrote:
Oh and I sinned. I shot a poor old incompetent slow electronic shutter camera, the A7R5, and I sinned twice, shot it in a single shot mode no bursts. My 3rd sin, it's actually in focus how dare it do such a thing with it's paltry focus capabilities. Hand held no less oh nooooo.....I have to repent apparently.

I really do hope that this post is a joke and not supposed to prove some kind of point. Literally any camera made in the last 15 years could get this shot of a duck against a sky background at close range. This can't be what people think is a challenging BIF situation or any kind of true test of an auto focus system. It just can't be. Please please please go do some research on BIF shooting. On shooting small and fast birds against varied backgrounds. On actual challenging situations where an unbelievable camera like the A1 really shines. Then go and actually get some high quality, properly exposed BIF photos. Then shoot both cameras and form an educated opinion about the pros and cons of both. Then and only then could you even begin to be qualified to make a statement about the pros and cons of the A1 over the A7RV for BIF. When are these absurd posts going to end


Jan 26, 2023 at 11:48 PM
dcisive
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


What I find most sad and disturbing at the same time, is what has been a wonderful gathering of real photographers over the last 20 years I've been a member here. And having owned all the top Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Olympus cameras along the way. This forum has been infected with the mentality of a Dpreview. I never thought I'd see the day, but sadly it may have arrived. There is no longer any sensibility regarding equipment and its applications. Having been a paid professional over the last 25 years I consider some of the responses here nothing short of insulting. All of the cameras currently out there are capable of most applications in the right hands. I have simply gotten sick and tired of the continuing diatribes of people beating their chests and bragging about how superior their cameras are. It just gets old. So, if you guys want to keep up, you're spouting off about your so-called top of the line camera go right ahead. I'm done with this drivel.
Jan 27, 2023 at 04:48 AM
tuomkok
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


dcisive wrote:
Oh and I sinned. I shot a poor old incompetent slow electronic shutter camera, the A7R5, and I sinned twice, shot it in a single shot mode no bursts. My 3rd sin, it's actually in focus how dare it do such a thing with it's paltry focus capabilities. Hand held no less oh nooooo.....I have to repent apparently.

There are birds and birds. Large and slow birds can be shot with any reasonably modern camera - high resolution is also a benefit. But if you shoot small and quick birds it is essential to have a fast camera and black out free EVF.
Jan 27, 2023 at 05:21 AM
j4nu
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


dcisive wrote:
What I find most sad and disturbing at the same time, is what has been a wonderful gathering of real photographers over the last 20 years I've been a member here. And having owned all the top Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Olympus cameras along the way. This forum has been infected with the mentality of a Dpreview. I never thought I'd see the day, but sadly it may have arrived. There is no longer any sensibility regarding equipment and its applications. Having been a paid professional over the last 25 years I consider some of the responses here nothing short...Show more →

I think nobody would be upset with your personal opinions if you didn't present them as the ultimate truths backed by your professional experience. As it stands, you were often wrong (downsampled crop mode on A7RV, FF and MFT delivering always same IQ, ...) and when people point that out, instead of providing actual proof for your theories, you keep repeating the same stuff...
Jan 27, 2023 at 05:30 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


chez wrote:
But isn’t the concept of shooting BIF…the bird is already flying so the mechanical shutter won’t really scare them? And if the bird is perched, you can switch to silent shutter as the bird is not moving very fast.

I actually do a lot of hiking and can definitely say animals of all types are much more sensitive to motion than sound. Many use smell as their primary sensory detection as well.

But consider the common scenario then when you would be using silent shutter and the bird is perched and then it flies from the perch. You have no time to switch to mechanical shutter so your shots of the now flying bird are subject to motion distortion. If you have to switch between shutter modes that often is not possible when trying to catch a bird as it begins flight.
Jan 27, 2023 at 05:49 AM
GMPhotography
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


dcisive wrote:
What I find most sad and disturbing at the same time, is what has been a wonderful gathering of real photographers over the last 20 years I've been a member here. And having owned all the top Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Olympus cameras along the way. This forum has been infected with the mentality of a Dpreview. I never thought I'd see the day, but sadly it may have arrived. There is no longer any sensibility regarding equipment and its applications. Having been a paid professional over the last 25 years I consider some of the responses here nothing short...Show more →

Regardless how you may have presented this and frankly I don't care either but a lot of truth in this comment. And yes it's sad how true it is. I think people don't realize how dumb the comments come out as .Hearing you can shoot a slow bird just fine. Really no one here was born yesterday let's get real .Moreover im sick of these trolls . When I owned GetDPI I banned them so fast it made your head spin.

Seriously given the many years of experience just on this thread alone. This thread should not even exist we all know it already.

No further comment from me, im still sleeping.

Here I will solve the puzzle everyone 100 percent of us will chimp and look at their last shot you see bending wings switch to mechnical. End of the day its about getting the shot, not noise not you being in the way not any limitations your job is to deliver a good image, not do math just do the work.

Back to bed and im out
Jan 27, 2023 at 06:26 AM
arbitrage
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


dcisive wrote:
What I find most sad and disturbing at the same time, is what has been a wonderful gathering of real photographers over the last 20 years I've been a member here. And having owned all the top Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Olympus cameras along the way. This forum has been infected with the mentality of a Dpreview. I never thought I'd see the day, but sadly it may have arrived. There is no longer any sensibility regarding equipment and its applications. Having been a paid professional over the last 25 years I consider some of the responses here nothing short...Show more →

I struggle to understand why you are in this thread. You don't shoot BIF. This thread has nothing to do with what you shoot. You seem like you are dead set in trying to defend your purchase of an A7RV. There is nothing wrong with the A7RV and it is probably a better camera for your type of shooting.
BUT...this thread is titled A1 v A7RV FOR BIF. Your posts here serve nothing towards that topic.

I will have the A7RV in my hands by April 1st. I'd buy it now but I want to test it on the challenging swallows IF and I have every expectation that it will suck. I'm waiting till then because I also have every intention that I will return it after 2 weeks. But I need to know how it works for BIF and more importantly for non-BIF so I can purchase it as a 2nd body when I start to travel for photography again.
Jan 27, 2023 at 06:54 AM
GMPhotography
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


arbitrage wrote:
I struggle to understand why you are in this thread. You don't shoot BIF. This thread has nothing to do with what you shoot. You seem like you are dead set in trying to defend your purchase of an A7RV. There is nothing wrong with the A7RV and it is probably a better camera for your type of shooting.
BUT...this thread is titled A1 v A7RV FOR BIF. Your posts here serve nothing towards that topic.

I will have the A7RV in my hands by April 1st. I'd buy it now but I want to test it on the challenging swallows IF...Show more →

I think you should try it as it has some stuff that you may ultimately like. The 61mpx is noting to sneeze at. What would be interesting to know is and no-one brought this up but where is the actually limit before we see the trouble. Is it maybe a pelican let's say or a Blackhawk or some generic bird that breaks the bank. The other one does APSC mode help reduce it. I don't shoot birds per se but that data I would not mind knowing and maybe others.



Jan 27, 2023 at 07:02 AM
arbitrage
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


GMPhotography wrote:
I think you should try it as it has some stuff that you may ultimately like. The 61mpx is noting to sneeze at. What would be interesting to know is and no-one brought this up but where is the actually limit before we see the trouble. Is it maybe a pelican let's say or a Blackhawk or some generic bird that breaks the bank. The other one does APSC mode help reduce it. I don't shoot birds per se but that data I would not mind knowing and maybe others.


Yes there is always a breaking point. I owned the A7RIV as my 2nd camera next to the A9II. All these cameras are capable to get shots some of the time. Even of swallows IF...see below....
But it comes down to the hit rate and how frustrated one gets with the slower FPS, lower hit rate, not being able to use ES for a smooth EVF etc. This is where the A9/A1 shine and no slow scanning sensor at 7-10FPS can ever keep up.

A7RIV:

May 22, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr
April 05, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr
March 31, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

Bonus A7RIV slow readout on something not moving that fast, no panning involved....artistic but not what most BIF photographers are after
Rolling Shutter Anyone? by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr
Jan 27, 2023 at 07:17 AM
GMPhotography
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


See some of this blur like above artistically I kinda like. Birders are birders I totally get that and technically want it perfect. But you as a birder may not be the only audience and depending on how it looks it maybe very artistic. I got thrown off the forum for saying that a few weeks ago. Photography is ART and sometimes that trash can image can be really quite nice. Not to rehash that whole thing as a stupid troll was involved in it and anything I say gets attacked. But I think knowing this stuff maybe important. I shot jets for years and every once in awhile I would slow the whole landing down for some blur. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not . But I had the best access to runways as I worked for a Aerospace company and that was our marketing


Jan 27, 2023 at 07:26 AM
j4nu
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


arbitrage wrote:
Yes there is always a breaking point. I owned the A7RIV as my 2nd camera next to the A9II. All these cameras are capable to get shots some of the time. Even of swallows IF...see below....
But it comes down to the hit rate and how frustrated one gets with the slower FPS, lower hit rate, not being able to use ES for a smooth EVF etc. This is where the A9/A1 shine and no slow scanning sensor at 7-10FPS can ever keep up.

A7RIV:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49924891867_98ef8b5799_h.jpgMay 22, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49742092336_de6f2ac730_h.jpgApril 05, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49722011052_ed2570d08e_h.jpgMarch 31, 2020.jpg by...Show more →

The last one is great, looks a lot more menacing .
Jan 27, 2023 at 07:27 AM
GMPhotography
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


Yea he may just bite you.


Jan 27, 2023 at 07:28 AM
chez
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors




Steve Spencer wrote:
But consider the common scenario then when you would be using silent shutter and the bird is perched and then it flies from the perch. You have no time to switch to mechanical shutter so your shots of the now flying bird are subject to motion distortion. If you have to switch between shutter modes that often is not possible when trying to catch a bird as it begins flight.

Oh yes the BBF ( bird beginning flight ) images.


Jan 27, 2023 at 09:13 AM
Douglas L
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


arbitrage wrote:
I struggle to understand why you are in this thread. You don't shoot BIF. This thread has nothing to do with what you shoot. You seem like you are dead set in trying to defend your purchase of an A7RV. There is nothing wrong with the A7RV and it is probably a better camera for your type of shooting.
BUT...this thread is titled A1 v A7RV FOR BIF. Your posts here serve nothing towards that topic.

I will have the A7RV in my hands by April 1st. I'd buy it now but I want to test it on the challenging swallows IF...Show more →

Excellent points, as usual Geoff. I haven't seen anyone saying the A7RV can't shoot BIF, even an A7R can do BIF at 1 FPS, if you are skilled and LUCKY. All the "A1 fanatics" are saying is for BIF and fast action the A1 is still better because of benefits offered by the stacked sensor. I don't understand why the trolls fail to see that, oh, because they are trolls. Somebody needs to have a life


Jan 27, 2023 at 09:28 AM
twodees
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors


I've kind of been forced to use the a7r5 for the last week or so as my a1 was in for a repair.

Compared to a1...
With a well lit subject at closer range it's about on par in terms of tracking and eye aquisition, sometimes eye aquisition feels snappier. I was really pleased with the final shots of ravens in good light and doubt the a1 could have improved on them. Bear in mind they were hopping about on the ground rather than bif
At a longer distance overall aquisition is a bit fussier. In lower light it feels like it loses out in aquisition and images were a little softer (iso 3200/4000/5000) and I was wishing I had the a1 with me.

I've been shooting e-shutter with AF 4, regular Zone, AF-C, bird recognition on, 600GM @ f4. Not tested with TCs or 200-600. The recognition thing (annoyingly) defaults to on after switching off/on/sleep. Warpy wings will occur.

For static birds it's fine, for landscapes I'm really enjoying using it. Will test on otters next week assuming I get onto some while I'm away.

arbitrage wrote:
I will have the A7RV in my hands by April 1st. I'd buy it now but I want to test it on the challenging swallows IF and I have every expectation that it will suck. I'm waiting till then because I also have every intention that I will return it after 2 weeks. But I need to know how it works for BIF and more importantly for non-BIF so I can purchase it as a 2nd body when I start to travel for photography again.
Jan 27, 2023 at 09:40 AM
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