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A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

jhapeman
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

GMPhotography wrote:
BTW sorry if I sounded grumpy the dang e shutter stuff has gotten annoying lately it's like the only thing this cam is about. Its not

Chez I read your post , I think it's time to get it. I think it will really help you over the A7RIII the damn focus is lighting fast

To me the A7RV is the best "all around" camera right now. That said, IF you want to do a lot of fast action photography then the A1 is better choice. It pretty much has no compromises, whereas the A7RV does have the limitations of a non-stacked sensor. That said, if you've never used a stacked-sensor camera you'll never know what you've been missing, and if you're coming from an A7RIII or earlier it's a huge leap forward. I say from experience using all of the above, BTW, not just an uninformed opinion.

Jan 23, 2023 at 10:39 AM

Dragonfire
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

chez wrote:
I highly doubt any noise I make would have scared them off.

Hummingbirds have very tiny ears and a 1D IV will not disturb them, but the click of the 5DS R's silent shutter will send a Kingfisher fleeing.

I was ready to purchase yesterday because of Sony's superior sensor and the addition of focusing bracketing until I read this thread and discovered the silent shutter was missing.

Thanks for the heads-up

Jan 23, 2023 at 10:52 AM

chez
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

Dragonfire wrote:
Hummingbirds have very tiny ears and a 1D IV will not disturb them, but the click of the 5DS R's silent shutter will send a Kingfisher fleeing.

I was ready to purchase yesterday because of Sony's superior sensor and the addition of focusing bracketing until I read this thread and discovered the silent shutter was missing.

Thanks for the heads-up

But there are a few here making the point the mech shutter will scare off hummingbirds. Maybe they really have not shot hummingbirds?

Jan 23, 2023 at 11:10 AM

Daran
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

GMPhotography wrote:
Seriously I don't shoot birds very often but I never scared them off either with noise and if I cant have an opinion here then I will just leave, I don't need the help .
I usually like reading your opinions, as it its usually based on your extensive experience. I could do without your ranting, when you talk about stuff that apparently does not even interest you. I do get that you were somewhat riled up by posts you thought uninformed. I consider it bad form to respond in kind, though.

Point being we shot birds for decades with mechanical shutters
Sure. But in gear discussions the question usually isn't whether something can be done, but what works better. For shy birds MS works, ES works better.

I work on a golf course...
I'm not surprised that it is rare to find a shy bird on a golf course. Sorry about the sarcasm.

Jan 23, 2023 at 12:11 PM

Daran
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

chez wrote:
But there are a few here making the point the mech shutter will scare off hummingbirds. Maybe they really have not shot hummingbirds?

I have not. Are all hummingbirds used to frequenting feeders? Aren't they more sound sensitive when they are not flying?

Jan 23, 2023 at 12:16 PM

Fboss
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

A "shy" bird not moving much, you can use ES. When the bird is flying, MS should not make a difference. At least not in my experience when shooting birds. Just need to have a ES/MS control handy to quickly switch as needed (it's set to my center button on the A7RV. And also have a M1=ES+single shot, and M2=MS+high speed burst to help depending on the situation)

Jan 23, 2023 at 12:22 PM

Douglas L
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

chez wrote:
But there are a few here making the point the mech shutter will scare off hummingbirds. Maybe they really have not shot hummingbirds?

I have shoot plenty of hummingbirds with my A7RIII, A7RIV and A1. They feed on a small garden about 10' from where I am, I don't think they were bothered by the mechanical shutter of my A7RIII and the A7RIV. Most of the birds I shoot are fairly far away so I don't think mechanical shutter vs electrical shutter would make a difference. I am sure some birds are more sensitive to noise.

What I like about stacked sensor is high FPS that comes with it, I know some folks say 10 FPS is more than enough, but personally, all things equal, I will take 20 FPS over 10 FPS any day, I may not use it all the time but it's nice to have it when higher FPS gives me better odds in some situation. I have read enough reviews from reputable reviewers and even our own in house BIF experts that for fast actions the A1 is still the go to camera. That said, the A7RV excels in a lot of areas, including BIF, just not as good as the A1 in this particular genre. It really depends on what's important to the shooter.

Jan 23, 2023 at 12:34 PM

tsdevine
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

So many of these discussions come down to what people shoot, how they shoot it, and how they like to shoot.

Trick is finding which solution works for what you shoot, how you shoot it, and how you like to shoot.

Just reaffirming what Douglas said right above.

Jan 23, 2023 at 12:39 PM

GMPhotography
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

Daran wrote:
I usually like reading your opinions, as it its usually based on your extensive experience. I could do without your ranting, when you talk about stuff that apparently does not even interest you. I do get that you were somewhat riled up by posts you thought uninformed. I consider it bad form to respond in kind, though.

Sure. But in gear discussions the question usually isn't whether something can be done, but what works better. For shy birds MS works, ES works better.

I'm not surprised that it is rare to find a shy bird on a golf course. Sorry about the...Show more →

Not ranting but very passionate about photography. You can always hide me but I will never change at 66 years old. This is what I do and do very well but all this techno junk is just that. It don’t make images we do and I get what will help us but some of this stuff is just silly. That’s my opinion on a public forum . Just like anyone else’s

Jan 23, 2023 at 12:48 PM

chez
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

Daran wrote:
I have not. Are all hummingbirds used to frequenting feeders? Aren't they more sound sensitive when they are not flying?

From my experience ( not shooting but observing wildlife ) is that wildlife is much more sensitive to movement than sound. Case in point, I have a hot tub right near where I feed a bunch of quail. We can make all the noise in the world from the hot tub and the quail just disregard the noise. However, try make a noticeable movement and they will scatter in a heart beat. I've observed the same thing when doing my daily walk through a bird sanctuary with a full range of birds.

Jan 23, 2023 at 12:48 PM

Daran
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

chez wrote:
From my experience ( not shooting but observing wildlife ) is that wildlife is much more sensitive to movement than sound. Case in point, I have a hot tub right near where I feed a bunch of quail. We can make all the noise in the world from the hot tub and the quail just disregard the noise. However, try make a noticeable movement and they will scatter in a heart beat. I've observed the same thing when doing my daily walk through a bird sanctuary with a full range of birds.
Absolutely. But it is simple to sit somewhere and not move, whereas you can't tell your mechanical shutter to shut up.
PS: I'll show myself out...

Jan 23, 2023 at 01:23 PM

wordfool
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

chez wrote:
Speaking of hummingbirds, when I used to have feeders, they got so tame I could put my fingers out next to the feeder and the birds would land on my finger as they drank the nectar. First thing in the morning if I don’t fill their feeders the hummers would fly right up to me and bug me until I fill their feeders.

I highly doubt any noise I make would have scared them off.

Yes, hummingbirds can be remarkably unphased by humans (had many fly right up to my face... to see if I'm edible I presume). It's like they know they're too fast for us

But, depending on the weather, other bird activity, and who knows what else, they can also be extremely skittish in my experience. I've witnessed first hand on many occasions how a mechanical shutter, machinegun style, from a fellow photog, will scare a skittish hummer away from a distance of about 15 feet. I'll be there silently shooting and along comes Mr Machinegun and, with his first salvo, the bird looks at him then zooms off. At other times they seem unphased by the rattle of mechanical shutters. With human movement they tend to just flit to the opposite side of the flower/bush. But the sound often seems to scare them off entirely. Maybe it's just anxiety from being in NYC

Same with some close-range warblers although they tend to be less bothered overall, especially during migration when they're no doubt more worried about finding food than predators.

Edited on Jan 23, 2023 at 02:06 PM · View previous versions

Jan 23, 2023 at 01:59 PM

chez
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

wordfool wrote:
Yes, hummingbirds can be remarkably unphased by humans (had many fly right up to my face... to see if I'm edible I presume). It's like they know they're too fast for us

But, depending on the weather, other bird activity, and who knows what else, they can also be extremely skittish in my experience. I've witnessed first hand on many occasions how a mechanical shutter, machinegun style, from a fellow photog, will scare a skittish hummer away from a distance of about 15 feet. I'll be there silently shooting and along comes Mr Machinegun and, with his first salvo,...Show more →

You sure it wasn’t movement from the other guy that spooked the birds? I find the very slightest movement and the birds are on alert.

Jan 23, 2023 at 02:05 PM

wordfool
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

chez wrote:
You sure it wasn’t movement from the other guy that spooked the birds? I find the very slightest movement and the birds are on alert.

Ha, I was just editing my last post to highlight that it is often the sound, not the movement that scares them off. With movement they're wary and will often move to the other side of a plant, especially in urban environments where I guess they're used to humans walking around. Sharp sounds, whether a mechanical shutter or something else like a screaming kid, will often scare them off completely. Not always, but sometimes.

Fun anecdote -- I once had an Anna's hummingbird fly straight at me and almost collide with the front of my lens, I assume because it saw its reflection or a reflection of a flower and went for it. I had to duck out of the way sharpish as it shot over my head. I'm sure it would have done that stop-on-a-dime thing that hummers do before it hit the lens, but I was taking no chances. It was certainly weird seeing a bird fly straight at me at high speed through the EVF while my pea brain processed what was happening and came up with a plan just in time

But, as I said earlier in this thread, I certainly don't think a silent shutter is necessary for BiF photography -- everyone was managing just fine before the A9 came out. There are a few (very few) instances where it might be a slight advantage but in my experience those are pretty rare and I'd never know about them if I didn't have an A1 (and A9 before that).

Jan 23, 2023 at 02:08 PM

RoamingScott
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

You can typically take just about any type of pic with most modern cameras.

A stacked sensor really only allows you to drastically increase your keeper rate doing it.

I've done BIF with cameras much worse than the A7R5. Would I want to go back from stacked MILC now that I've tasted it? Never.

The obsession with a totally silent camera for birding is insane. People have been taking amazing bird photos with machine gun mirror slappers for decades.

Jan 23, 2023 at 02:32 PM

tsdevine
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

Maybe the birds have adapted, and now just fly off in disgust.

Hopefully people can laugh a joke, no matter how bad it is.

RoamingScott wrote:
You can typically take just about any type of pic with most modern cameras.

A stacked sensor really only allows you to drastically increase your keeper rate doing it.

I've done BIF with cameras much worse than the A7R5. Would I want to go back from stacked now that I've tasted it? Never.

The obsession with a totally silent camera for birding is insane. People have been taking amazing bird photos with machine gun mirror slappers for decades.

Jan 23, 2023 at 02:37 PM

RoamingScott
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

tsdevine wrote:
Maybe the birds have adapted, and now just fly off in disgust.

Hopefully people can laugh a joke, no matter how bad it is.

Birds are robot drones sent by the government to monitor us, they're always adapting with every firmware update.

Jan 23, 2023 at 02:46 PM

wordfool
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

tsdevine wrote:
Maybe the birds have adapted, and now just fly off in disgust.

Hopefully people can laugh a joke, no matter how bad it is.

Adapted birds often have problems with focus compared to native ones

Jan 23, 2023 at 03:04 PM

aboutthelight
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

If your main goal is BIF then I would get the A1 without hesitation. You can shoot at 20 FPS full raw or 30 FPS with compressed raw. With the A7RV you are getting 7 with electronic shutter and 10 with mechanical. So best case you are getting half of the photos that you would get with the A1. Worst case you are getting 1/3 of the photos. With BIF shooting split second differences can make or break the shot. Often times in a burst there is one shot with the wing position I am after or sometimes none. I would not want to limit chances with a much lower frame rate. If you browse the link to my IG account which is linked you can see many examples of BIF shots of many different types of birds. Before switching to the A1 I shot the D850. Sure I got lots of flight shots but the added fps of the A1 are such an advantage I can not stress it enough.

As per the sound of the mechanical shutter it is highly likely that the sound will not have much of an impact on the birds for the vast majority of BIF shooting. But now and then it absolutely does. I can tell you that when I shot the D850 that I flushed birds with it lots of times. The second the shutter started slapping the birds flew. Silent shutter is a significant advantage of mirrorless cameras and it is not something I would ever go back to. Yes there are birds that don't care but plenty of them do. Why take the chance that you will lose an opportunity? For those who say it does not make a difference I would say that they simply don't have enough experience with enough different species to speak on the subject with confidence. I have photographed hundreds of species of birds throughout the country and I have encountered plenty of birds that hate the sound of the shutter. That does not mean that you can't get photos with a mechanical shutter but that there will be times that the sound of that shutter will make you lose an opportunity that you would not lose with a silent shutter.

Doubt I will get any fans saying this but these forums are a joke most of the time. Most every thread breaks down to a few know it alls getting defensive and mouthing off about stuff they know very little about. Anyone who seriously photographs birds knows how vital a silent shutter can be in certain situations and how much of an advantage the added frames per second can be. I am not talking about a few big slow eagles or crazy slow herons and stuff as BIF shooting either. I really wish people would stop this nonsense and either stay silent or use their brain before they speak

Go ahead and let the hate flow. I really don't care!

Edited on Jan 23, 2023 at 07:16 PM · View previous versions

Jan 23, 2023 at 06:22 PM

RoamingScott
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · A7rV for BIF? More recent af vs stacked sensors

The D850 shutter is NOTHING like the quiet modern dampened mechanical shutters in terms of sound.

Jan 23, 2023 at 07:09 PM

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