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Which one is the better basic video camera?

  
 
tsangc
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


Jesse Evans wrote:
The guy asked for a recommendation for a basic video camera and y'all are recommending cinema cameras.

Just get an R6 II dude. It's going to have enough video overhead for you for years to come. Get a Rode Videomicro II and put it in the hotshoe, use manual audio levels, and call it a day. Maybe look in to a DJI wireless mic system if you're going to record people talking to the camera a lot.

This will last you a long time. I wouldn't overthink it too much.


Let me defend my reply post

The OP originally posted a question which was fairly vague...basic video. What's basic video? I consider my video use, which is mostly recording interviews with little movement, pretty basic. I love my C100 for this purpose--it is literally designed for this.

They've since refined that to travel videos--but if it was something like educational or documentary video or anything longer form, a C series camera is seriously the correct choice.

I find DSLR/mirrorless video infuriatingly weird. It's like this situation where the camera is an awkward shape and everything is an outboard accessory. People obsess over all these strange rigs to put camera into some sort of usable configuration, like hot rodding the DSLR into something it wasn't meant to be. Things like dummy batteries and weird power hacks, or gluing viewfinder loupes onto the back screen.

The firmware isn't really designed for video shooting and has none of the things an ENG style camera should have, like waveform monitors etc. For a long time, I don't think they even had zebra stripes for exposure peaking. Other things are just awkward, like you have to dig into a screen menu to find the audio level settings.* On the C100 it's a physical dial and there's one per channel, right next to your XLR jacks.

* maybe they've changed this recently.

My point is, sometimes, perhaps not for the OP's situation, but in many situations, it helps to use the correct tool for the job.



Jan 22, 2023 at 10:01 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


tsangc wrote:
Let me defend my reply post

The OP originally posted a question which was fairly vague...basic video. What's basic video? I consider my video use, which is mostly recording interviews with little movement, pretty basic. I love my C100 for this purpose--it is literally designed for this.

They've since refined that to travel videos--but if it was something like educational or documentary video or anything longer form, a C series camera is seriously the correct choice.

I find DSLR/mirrorless video infuriatingly weird. It's like this situation where the camera is an awkward shape and everything is an outboard accessory. People obsess
...Show more

I was just being flippant, everybody is obviously trying to be helpful and I have no issues with your post 😄



Jan 22, 2023 at 10:30 PM
action99
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


I would take an R6II over a GH6 any day for video. As one man band great video AF is a life saver and FF look with much better DoF control is also a differentiator. If you want all in focus then an iPhone will do great.

For me I could not even thing of doing this without AF:



For interview a pair of rode go2 or DJI Mic will do good, is almost useless a super expensive shotgun XLR phantom powered mic at 5m vs a lavalier, even cheap one, at 15cm.... Our state tv sometime uses rode go2 for interviews so I'm sure for hobby is more than enough.

But video needs a lot of learning like moving the camera, editing, grading, audio etc.. so any modern mirrorless will not be the limiting factor for good video. Just use what you have and learn.






Jan 23, 2023 at 05:08 AM
johnvanr
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


AmbientMike wrote:
Audio is separate. I suppose you might be OK with a shotgun mic on camera but I have a digital voice recorder recommended on here so it's a good chance if I really did serious video I'd do audio on that and add it in pp. I can give you the model it's older though so you might be interested in more recent. I think dB -12 on audio is kinda like 18% grey, and I've played around on auto and manually adjusting Gain, so I have a clue. I'm thinking if I ever get serious I can probably attach
...Show more

I know audio is a separate thing. I did buy a Rode video mic, a small Zoom recorder and a bigger one (on Black Friday sales or when I saw a used one for a good price). A lavalier kit is in my B&H wish list, as are the standard Sony headphones most people use. I probably will upgrade my computer before we move, but that's also in general because Apple is a lot more expensive in Europe than here.



Jan 23, 2023 at 07:40 AM
johnvanr
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


tsangc wrote:
Let me defend my reply post

The OP originally posted a question which was fairly vague...basic video. What's basic video? I consider my video use, which is mostly recording interviews with little movement, pretty basic. I love my C100 for this purpose--it is literally designed for this.

They've since refined that to travel videos--but if it was something like educational or documentary video or anything longer form, a C series camera is seriously the correct choice.

I find DSLR/mirrorless video infuriatingly weird. It's like this situation where the camera is an awkward shape and everything is an outboard accessory. People obsess
...Show more

I know where you're coming from and I completely agree about the weird ergonomics of photo cameras for video. Whenever I see a serious videographer with an enormous cage and a small mirrorless camera in the middle, I just don't get how we got there.

I started out with a pro video camera when I was at the broadcasting company, heavy but ergonomically set up to be positioned just right on your shoulder with the eyepiece in the right place. And I have a friend who shoots for PBS Frontline and whenever I ask him, he's of course always looking at cinema cameras and his gear choices are all higher-priced and more reliable than what I need (e.g. he uses Sennheiser lavalier gear, while I will get Rode). But I want to do it on the side, with a kit that doesn't get in my way while producing technical acceptable results.



Jan 23, 2023 at 07:46 AM
johnvanr
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


action99 wrote:
I would take an R6II over a GH6 any day for video. As one man band great video AF is a life saver and FF look with much better DoF control is also a differentiator. If you want all in focus then an iPhone will do great.

For me I could not even thing of doing this without AF:



For interview a pair of rode go2 or DJI Mic will do good, is almost useless a super expensive shotgun XLR phantom powered mic at 5m vs a lavalier, even cheap one, at 15cm.... Our state tv sometime uses rode go2 for
...Show more

I'm aware that it's a learning curve. I've dipped into video once in a while, but always with long gaps in between. So, in the 80s, a Dutch broadcasting company started this outfit where young people could produce radio and TV. For some reason, I shot up there and was given the chance to direct and produce two half-hour programs for national TV. What I did wasn't great, but I did learn a lot. I later worked as a producer for the real broadcasting arm. But this was in the days of linear editing, a pain in the behind. I still remember sitting in a dark room in a basement for hours editing stuff.

Later, in 2001, I did a course in NY given by Michael Rosenblum's outfit, which also trained regular BBC journalists to do video. It was only a week, so I only got the basics but I did get a good idea of the changes and what's needed.

I actually think I may overthink it sometimes, since a lot of what you see on YouTube would not be acceptable by the standards I learned.



Jan 23, 2023 at 07:56 AM
johnctharp
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


action99 wrote:
For interview a pair of rode go2 or DJI Mic will do good, is almost useless a super expensive shotgun XLR phantom powered mic at 5m vs a lavalier, even cheap one, at 15cm.... Our state tv sometime uses rode go2 for interviews so I'm sure for hobby is more than enough.


Do they do interviews with a 200-400/4L?

The difference here is the idea of an 'interview'; yes, if I got roped into doing interviews, I'd grab the DJI wireless lav kit in a heartbeat. But something like Sennheiser's MKE400 would probably be ideal for the OP's purposes, thinking travel video and 'b-roll'.

Obviously the bigger point to audio is in terms of the limitations of photo-focused camera microphone pre-amps (noise, limited gain, limited monitoring and control). Whatever the capture solution, the recording side is what we're worried about.



Jan 23, 2023 at 10:19 AM
molson
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


johnctharp wrote:
To me, this would discourage using the GH6 while traveling when making videos is not the primary goal.


The GH6 has the best image quality of any m4/3 camera so it's definitely worth travelling with if you're an m4/3 user, whether you are planning to use it for video or stills.



Jan 23, 2023 at 10:41 AM
JohnWest
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


EOS 250D from Canon. This is for everyone out there who wants high-quality video.


Jan 23, 2023 at 01:39 PM
novalaker
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


I may have missed it, but is there a reason you aren't considering the S5ii? It has many of the video features of the GH6 but with a full frame sensor and PDAF. Those who say it has room to improve may be correct, but this camera is barely released and Panasonic always improves AF with firmware. Plus, there are quite a number of tests showing that it's already up there with Canon and only behind Sony.

This will give you an interface you are used to if you're using the GH6 already as well, and if you like Leica, it gets you into the L-Mount where you could then use Leica cameras with your Lumix lenses. Also, some of the Lumix lenses are much smaller and better for travel, like the 1.8 primes or the 20-60. They're also all optimized for video. I'd really only consider the R6ii if you are doing more sports and action photography. S5ii has dramatically better video features and even some stills features R6ii doesn't have like pixel shift (which works really well IMO).



Jan 24, 2023 at 03:43 PM
 


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johnvanr
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


novalaker wrote:
I may have missed it, but is there a reason you aren't considering the S5ii? It has many of the video features of the GH6 but with a full frame sensor and PDAF. Those who say it has room to improve may be correct, but this camera is barely released and Panasonic always improves AF with firmware. Plus, there are quite a number of tests showing that it's already up there with Canon and only behind Sony.

This will give you an interface you are used to if you're using the GH6 already as well, and if you like Leica,
...Show more

The reason is that I have many MFT lenses and a few Canon EF and RF lenses, but no L-mount lenses and no desire to buy any. If anything, I need to pare down what I have, not add to it.



Jan 24, 2023 at 04:00 PM
novalaker
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


johnvanr wrote:
The reason is that I have many MFT lenses and a few Canon EF and RF lenses, but no L-mount lenses and no desire to buy any. If anything, I need to pare down what I have, not add to it.


Ah, I see, well then I'd say that the R6ii would be better if you just need basic videography. GH6 is great, but you a lot of its features may be overkill if you're just looking to take basic videos. The benefit of GH6 is also the amazing stabilization and small lenses, but the AF is still way behind the R6ii and I don't think we will see a GH6ii or GH7 with PDAF for a while.



Jan 25, 2023 at 12:51 AM
molson
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


action99 wrote:
I would take an R6II over a GH6 any day for video. As one man band great video AF is a life saver and FF look with much better DoF control is also a differentiator. If you want all in focus then an iPhone will do great.

For me I could not even thing of doing this without AF:



I watched the video until about the mid-way point and had already lost track of how many times the camera lost and regained focus - but I was more distracted by the lack of image stabilization.

I get your point about the R6 II having better C-AF, but this particular example (shot with an R5C) doesn't set a very high bar. I'm sure the GH6 could match this level performance, except the footage wouldn't be as shaky.



Jan 25, 2023 at 09:57 AM
johnctharp
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


molson wrote:
I watched the video until about the mid-way point and had already lost track of how many times the camera lost and regained focus - but I was more distracted by the lack of image stabilization.

I get your point about the R6 II having better C-AF, but this particular example (shot with an R5C) doesn't set a very high bar. I'm sure the GH6 could match this level performance, except the footage wouldn't be as shaky.


Does the R5C having no IBIS and different AF protocols than the R6 II not influence your opinion?

I'll grant that Panasonic appears to have the best overall video stabilization, but the GH6 being limited to DFD is really a killer for video when not sufficiently planned out and rigged up, IMO.



Jan 25, 2023 at 10:55 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Which one is the better basic video camera?




johnvanr wrote:
I know audio is a separate thing. I did buy a Rode video mic, a small Zoom recorder and a bigger one (on Black Friday sales or when I saw a used one for a good price). A lavalier kit is in my B&H wish list, as are the standard Sony headphones most people use. I probably will upgrade my computer before we move, but that's also in general because Apple is a lot more expensive in Europe than here.


Oh, OK, you might know more about it than I do. I was thinkingabout it and I'm not sure that the rode shotgun type mic isn't just as good as the voice recorder, and it might be easier. Recorder seems hood too, though. Audio seems pretty small file size, I think I just leave it on the biggest uncompressed? 64 and 128gb micto SD cards are potentially <$15 these days.

I took a video class years ago, the video camera didn't have as large a sensor as the gh1 I bought later, but it had nice features like a button to zoom smoothly to give you better video. I'm not as familiar with the C100 series, if there is a series, but I generally agree with @tsangc 's point and the C100's look less expensive than the R6's & GH series.

If I'd done lots of video, I'd probably be sitting on a bunch of 1080i nature footage now. So I'd pay attention to resolution.



Jan 25, 2023 at 11:17 AM
molson
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


johnctharp wrote:
Does the R5C having no IBIS and different AF protocols than the R6 II not influence your opinion?

I'll grant that Panasonic appears to have the best overall video stabilization, but the GH6 being limited to DFD is really a killer for video when not sufficiently planned out and rigged up, IMO.


The person who posted the link to the video said he "couldn't imagine doing this without AF", implying the GH6 wasn't capable of similar performance - so no, it does nothing to change my opinion - because the GH6 (and probably every other camera on the market) could match that relatively modest level of AF performance.

I really struggle to understand how a 90% effective AF system is a "deal killer" but a camera with a 95% effective system is a "game changer" despite all of the camera's other shortcomings (I made up those percentages, but that's probably close to the relative performance of the two systems, and that's only in C-AF mode).

One strong point for the Canon is that it will probably keep your hands warm if you're filming in cold weather with its built-in heater...



Jan 25, 2023 at 11:19 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Which one is the better basic video camera?




johnvanr wrote:
I know where you're coming from and I completely agree about the weird ergonomics of photo cameras for video. Whenever I see a serious videographer with an enormous cage and a small mirrorless camera in the middle, I just don't get how we got there.


I think that's a pretty easy explanation. My GH1 cost $600. The purpose made video camera apparently cost $5k, although probably a lot less by then. You trick out the bigger sensor camera. R5 might be expensive but not for an 8k camera

Plus idk if the C100 and others can do stills. GH1 did that very well imo, though some issues. Used it as my main camera about a year and a half.



Jan 25, 2023 at 12:45 PM
johnctharp
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


molson wrote:
The person who posted the link to the video said he "couldn't imagine doing this without AF", implying the GH6 wasn't capable of similar performance - so no, it does nothing to change my opinion - because the GH6 (and probably every other camera on the market) could match that relatively modest level of AF performance.

I really struggle to understand how a 90% effective AF system is a "deal killer" but a camera with a 95% effective system is a "game changer" despite all of the camera's other shortcomings (I made up those percentages, but that's probably close to the
...Show more

Pulsing focus, which DFD (as well as CDAF) must do, is pretty distracting. Panasonic made great strides in making it not terrible for video - but this is more of a '50%' vs. '99.9%' comparison. A lot of knowledge, a lot of skill/experience/patience, and a lot of work go into using DFD for video at the level that PDAF systems just work. The huge jump that Panasonic made in AF performance by implementing their still immature PDAF technology in the S5 II illustrates that pretty clearly.

Of course, the primary advantage the GH6 has in this discussion isn't AF, but he benefits of using a smaller sensor that brings greater depth of field in practice. Speaking honestly for myself, that's actually a pretty compelling reason to look forward to the GH7 for video.

molson wrote:
One strong point for the Canon is that it will probably keep your hands warm if you're filming in cold weather with its built-in heater...


True, but also for every other full-frame camera with similar or better capabilities that doesn't include its own cooling fan, right?



Jan 25, 2023 at 01:52 PM
molson
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


johnctharp wrote:
Pulsing focus, which DFD (as well as CDAF) must do, is pretty distracting. Panasonic made great strides in making it not terrible for video - but this is more of a '50%' vs. '99.9%' comparison.


That's an extremely gross exaggeration which I suspect is due more to a number of inept YouTube reviews than actual experience with the Panasonic cameras, but I guess that's the world we live in.


True, but also for every other full-frame camera with similar or better capabilities that doesn't include its own cooling fan, right?


Every other full-frame camera except those from Sony or Nikon or Leica or Sigma or Panasonic (other than the S1H)... right?



Jan 25, 2023 at 02:08 PM
johnctharp
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Which one is the better basic video camera?


molson wrote:
That's an extremely gross exaggeration which I suspect is due more to a number of inept YouTube reviews than actual experience with the Panasonic cameras, but I guess that's the world we live in.


Sure, if you cherry pick what I said. But also, sure, since that demonstrates what I actually did say, as 'inept' YouTube reviewers can get a PDAF system working while struggling with a DFD system. There's obviously a gap; you can attempt to deflect this onto reviewers, but the point remains that the DFD system is less flexible and more difficult to exploit. Even Panasonic admits this tacitly as they've implemented PDAF themselves.

molson wrote:
Every other full-frame camera except those from Sony or Nikon or Leica or Sigma or Panasonic (other than the S1H)... right?


Every comparable one, yes, either in terms of being able to do oversampled 4k60 or having relatively minimal rolling shutter - or just not having 24MP+. Note that this then excludes the A7 and A7R cameras, among other potential contenders.

That's kind of what makes the R6 II unique. Well, that and it apparently really doesn't need a cooling fan!



Jan 25, 2023 at 10:20 PM
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