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Archive 2022 · R5 mkII rumors, questions

  
 
goalerjones
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I believe once again, supplies for chipsets is the issue. I have a Touring Hybrid Accord from 2021. They wanted me to turn in my lease early to provide them with a used car to sell from their lot, but the new model has reduced features due to these limitations. So I decided to just buy out my lease. I can't imagine Canon has any guarantee their chipset needs will be met with all the unrest, and potential invasion of Taiwan. So, until that supply is met, I'll settle for a major update.


Mar 07, 2023 at 01:11 AM
Jesse Evans
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Hardware wise I am not sure there has been an innovation that would result in a better R5 than what we have now. Firmware upgrades would be nice tho to bring all of the innovations up to the R6 II to the R5. Face only af in video would be nice.


Mar 07, 2023 at 01:26 AM
dolina
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


It will be released before July 2024


Mar 07, 2023 at 02:23 AM
Jman13
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


EB-1 wrote:
It will be rather pathetic if by the end of Canon has not one camera newer than 2020 with more than 24 MP. Hopefully Canon will lose enough customers to Nikon to rethink their future strategy, especially if the Z8 is very good.

EBH


Why does it matter? The R5 is still an absolute powerhouse given its price point, and if they are giving it a major firmware update to bring a lot of newer features to it, what is the need? First, it shows commitment to your customers, by giving them major improvements late in the cycle, and the R5 when it was announced was so ridiculously ahead of the game that it still very much holds up in 2023.



Mar 07, 2023 at 11:33 AM
PhilH
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I suspect a few things are going on, but patience is probably the best recipe.

For those of us who have multiple camera systems, I think there's reason not to be super enchanted by recent 60-ish megapixel bodies, especially if you are a pixel peeper. But when used well and within bounds pretty good, plus camera feature set. But on a pure IQ level across practical shooting range and looking at the sum of all the parts, whelp, yeah.

For me still to date the R5 camera is the best high resolution FF35 sensor. Still have my 5DsR and I think there have been improvements over that. R3 is pretty stellar, but a different concept and lower resolution.

I think that puts Canon in a weird spot particularly with the duality of the R5C existing. The real question for Canon here is do they aim to go higher resolution which may stray from some of the more ideal motion related features while providing what some are looking for on the still side, slightly more resolution; or do they work hard on this pixel design, sensor design and build from there. Making it better in a few directions, better in low light as well. The 5 series bodies certainly have been where video and motion has been a big focus dating back to 2008. The 5 series also pretty much killed the 1Ds line, which I own all 3 generations of and enjoyed. Particularly the MK II prior to III which took the hit.

I think in 2023 it might be time to push 16-bit and more expanded RAW capture features as we have all the other pieces sorted. Perhaps some novel improvements on image pipeline and processing as well. That might mean waiting for these things to drop in the "who knows when" R1, but maybe not. I suspect the sensor being worked on for that camera has been "hard" and taken a while. Canon has demonstrated some wild tech that hasn't hit our cameras yet and I'm betting we get some of that shortly.

The good news is it does look like they are pushing on more glass finally. But 2023 needs to see more L series primes for sure on the wide end, which I've been mentioning a bit more loudly as of late. And we know more zooms are coming. I suspect there will be announcements close to NAB for more motion-centric cameras that may or may not have an RF Mount focus (some certainly will if not all).

I think it's also worth discussing a larger format camera, though I don't think Canon has much interest in it yet. That's a full new system during the semi-newly maturing RF Mount era. But that's one way to improve in some directions without cramming too many pixels into a format size that it might be detrimental too. We can likely get to a 2.2-3.2 micron pixel size with good quality, but it might be a bit too early despite that being a thing elsewhere. They already demonstrated a 1.5 micron pixel back in 2015, but I suspect the power, processing, and light gathering concerns may keep it out of small cameras for now. Also relevant is processing images and we're in an era where some don't want very high resolution images while others very much want that.

Long term, though I don't fully think it will go this route. I think there's a lot of sense to having 26, 45, and likely one tier higher megapixel bodies in the lineup. For the film folks, some of this makes a lot of sense conceptually when you think about image noise, resolution, and specific stocks. In which case, whatever camera gets that higher resolution sensor, do they stay in the 61 megapixel realm or blast by it by another 10-30-ish megapixels. The new glass can indeed handle that. I suspect we'll get the more incremental upgrade route until the R1 is finalized.



Mar 08, 2023 at 06:39 AM
vashion
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


It's probably one more year's waiting till the announcement. Specs will be adjusted for sure based on competitors by then.


Mar 15, 2023 at 09:16 PM
koenkooi
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


vashion wrote:
It's probably one more year's waiting till the announcement. Specs will be adjusted for sure based on competitors by then.


How would that work? Will Canon design, develop and mass produce a completely new sensor, all within 6 months? Developing a top end body like an R5 takes years, Canon can't just "adjust specs" so far into the development timeline.



Mar 16, 2023 at 12:33 AM
Jman13
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


PhilH wrote:
I think in 2023 it might be time to push 16-bit and more expanded RAW capture features as we have all the other pieces sorted.


16-bit wouldn't really yield any noticeable improvement given the dynamic range of these sensors. It might be visible in a computer measured chart. I highly, highly doubt it would be visible in practical use. Just extra data to store.


I think it's also worth discussing a larger format camera, though I don't think Canon has much interest in it yet. That's a full new system during the semi-newly maturing RF Mount era. But that's one way to improve in some directions without cramming too many pixels into a format size that it might be detrimental too.


I don't see Canon ever entering medium format. They've never done medium format in their near 90 year history. Plus, the quality improvement from full-frame is there, but not exceptional unless you go beyond what has become standard in digital MF (just 33x44mm for something like the Fujifilm GFX) to emulate film medium format sizes (which would be a considerable size increase at 56x45(645) or 84x56mm (6x9)), which would then put cameras into likely $20,000 to $30,000 territory...more if they tried to do a 6x9 sensor.

Also, it's a pretty small niche overall for people to need that much quality at that price. Fujifilm has found a really nice niche with the GFX, but while the GFX100 has better image quality than the R5, it's not a massive lead, and Fujifilm has a nice benefit of having their gap be APS-C to MF, not full frame to medium format.




Mar 16, 2023 at 05:49 AM
PhilH
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Jman13 wrote:
16-bit wouldn't really yield any noticeable improvement given the dynamic range of these sensors. It might be visible in a computer measured chart. I highly, highly doubt it would be visible in practical use. Just extra data to store.


Strong disagree particularly to higher ISOs when elevating the noise floor. In practice the biggest gains are gradients in the low end as well as saturation. It is indeed noticeable in print and digital display. Especially for flatter looks. There's also subtle chromatic gains, but I would say hard to detect, but something that could be visibly seen with tricky light sources for sure.

Also, when positioning potentially a camera like the R1 where it will likely be marketed as a viable option against middle and medium format 16-bit sensors, I can see that value add and reason for the feature. Of note, when toggling the modes on the GFX and X2D, I can see noticeable differences at the cost of filesize, but if you're doing work for a client and focused on quality imaging, certainly worth exploring the feature. But I agree it will be a new thing for Canon to pursue.

I also agree that a medium format Canon would be a very, very long shot. But sub-3.2 micron pixel pitches at the moment will only get you so far. 2-2.2 is viable, but there's a lot of things not ideal with current tech surrounding light gathering with photosites in that realm. Which is why I think refining a current pixel pitch/design with incremental improved hardware is potentially a really good way to go.

I don't think we'll get a viable 6x9 sensor anytime soon, but new "close to" 645 should be incoming shortly, which hopefully will be a nice refresh in the PhaseOne world.. There's two new sensors already available that haven't shown up in commercially available cameras of that size. You can keep the camera package relatively small still with a 645 imaging plane with modern optical design, especially in the mirrorless era.

If they do go medium, we have a couple years for sure as FF35 and APS-C are still growing for RF Mount. And it's somewhat uncanny that just a few days ago they dropped a new lithography line stepper that can handle 300mm wafers and in a single go also produce an sensor with a ~70mm diagonal:
https://global.canon/en/product/indtech/semicon/fpa5550ix.html

I do want to chat pricing, which is a moving target with current market and financial times. I will be curious about where market tier exists for the R1. 1Ds existed in the $8K body realm. R3 is currently $6K. R5 is a lot of camera for $4500 in my mind and literally can be had now for $3700. Fujinon has the GFX100s $4700. Hasselblad will always be on the high side as well as Leica, different thing going on there. Sony A1 is their premium at $6500.

Former owner of all the 1Ds bodies, the OG D30 and D60 (then when the flipped the naming around again), and all the full frame bodies until fairly recently with the entry level ones and R3. R5 compared to much of that is an incredible value and much improved IQ. Only a few directions to go from here while remaining in the FF35/135 still format size.



Mar 17, 2023 at 05:09 AM
EB-1
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I'd rather have more pixels than more bits and DR, but I also want the ES mode to not be so much worse than the MS mode.

EBH



Mar 17, 2023 at 07:14 AM
vashion
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


koenkooi wrote:
How would that work? Will Canon design, develop and mass produce a completely new sensor, all within 6 months? Developing a top end body like an R5 takes years, Canon can't just "adjust specs" so far into the development timeline.


firmware



Mar 17, 2023 at 09:46 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


PhilH wrote:
Strong disagree particularly to higher ISOs when elevating the noise floor. In practice the biggest gains are gradients in the low end as well as saturation. It is indeed noticeable in print and digital display. Especially for flatter looks. There's also subtle chromatic gains, but I would say hard to detect, but something that could be visibly seen with tricky light sources for sure.

Also, when positioning potentially a camera like the R1 where it will likely be marketed as a viable option against middle and medium format 16-bit sensors, I can see that value add and reason for the feature.
...Show more

There's a lot to chew on here.

I think that 16-bit files (as jMan13 suggested), while producing an objectively quantifiable difference in file content, would not lead to any appreciable difference in final image quality in all but a few unlikely edge cases. I suppose that the arguably advantage is a bit more "malleability" for more extensive manipulation of images in post before the file falls apart, but not sure how big of a deal that is.

My feeling is that 16-bit is one of those "well, sure, if you can do it without performance or financial cost, why not" things than something that calls out for the feature.

I confess that I haven't closely followed the R news since the R5 was introduced and I decided that for my photography it wasn't a compelling upgrade to my 5DsR. I decided to hold off for the time being and to continue the watching and waiting process. So perhaps I'm off-base on this, but my assumption has been that a R1 would not be the sort of camera to be positioned as a "viable option against middle (?) and medium format 16-bit sensors." It seems to me more likely — virtually certain, actually — that it would be the successor to the 1-series cameras, which have less-than-maximum resolution but which focus on operational speed (burst, AF, etc) for what I think of as "practical" purposes. That is roughly the opposite of the focus on MF and miniMF digital systems these days.

We agree that a Canon miniMF camera would be an extreme long-shot. The IQ and performance capabilities of FF, plus the availability of a huge ecosystem of lenses and other accessories, outweighs any potential image quality improvements for almost all photographers when we compare miniMF systems and FF.

On the other hand, a company that strives to provide close to the level of lenses/accessories/performance found in the FF world to cameras with the marginally larger miniMF sensors could justifiability claim an advance beyond FF performance that would appeal to some buyers. Because miniMF isn't that much larger than FF (unlike traditional MF formats, even including the small 645 format), it would be possible to make high performance lenses and other gear for such a system. I wonder if anyone will x9 exploit that? Fujifilm could, but they haven't — so far their excellent miniMF systems seem constrained by design/performance notions based on old school film MF ideas.

As to "close to 645" MF digital sensors, they already exist, though the costs are extremely high... for IQ advantages that are small to invisible. And the significantly larger lenses, etc. are not going to be attractive to very many folks. Any 6x9 digital sensors are likely to remain extraordinarily rare for a whole bunch of reasons.

From the perspective of film photography, the idea of a 6x9 digital sensor might look pretty appealing. But most photographers I know who use or have used larger formats, including LF film, look at this from almost the opposite perspective. Rather than wanting to use digital to recreate the familiar larger formats, they are excited about being able to use smaller digitals systems to get the quality that formerly required the very large systems. (A friend of mine who was a long time LF photographer documented this process over a decade ago in older issues of Luminous Landscape. He got access to various Phase One backs early on and did lengthy and exhaustive comparative testing of that technology against his LF film system... and eventually arrived at a point where he was convinced that the Phase One system produced equal or slightly better quality than he could get from scanned 4x5 film. These days he uses a Fujifilm GFX system.)

I shoot FF and APS-C. I have been using the Fujifilm x-trans system for over a decade for half of my photography — the half where the smaller system has photographic benefits. But I continued (and continue) to use the larger format for tripod-based photography that may end up being reproduced at large sizes. But I recently picked up one of the new 40MP Fujifilm cameras... and I'm convinced that the boundary for using the smaller system has moved significantly, e.g. I can get some very good IQ from that system in situations where I wouldn't have previously relied on the smaller format.

And, of course, if we can do that at 40MP on APS-C, FF can be pushed further in that direction, too — I'd argue that it should easily be able to do what a 50+MP miniMF system could do a few years ago. And that was regarded by some to be pretty darned good. Thus the real-world benefits of pushing to larger formats becomes smaller and smaller over time.

YMMV.



Mar 17, 2023 at 10:35 AM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


PhilH wrote:
R5 is a lot of camera for $4500 in my mind and literally can be had now for $3700.


ChatGPT, R5 street price in USA is $3300 as of now


CPW "Street Price"
from an Authorized Dealer In Stock
Fill Out Form Above!
$3299.99





Mar 18, 2023 at 09:16 AM
stanj
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Jesse Evans wrote:
Hardware wise I am not sure there has been an innovation that would result in a better R5 than what we have now.


Well a stacked sensor would be nice, so that ES becomes more generally usable.



Mar 19, 2023 at 01:03 AM
EB-1
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


stanj wrote:
Well a stacked sensor would be nice, so that ES becomes more generally usable.


As would more than 12 bits at low ISO.

EBH



Mar 19, 2023 at 08:26 AM
cohenfive
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I still love my r5 and r6, but worry that in another year canon will be further behind the competition. The upcoming z8 could be a real powerhouse, and with nikon's clear lead in wildlife lenses for z mount, it could steal some market share from canon. I know that is only one segment of the market but at least symbolically it is an important one. I'd at least like to see new firmware pushing the existing hardware as far as possible, including improvements in the already good (but falling behind) af speed/accuracy. Let's hope canon delivers at least on the firmware front this year.


Mar 19, 2023 at 09:22 PM
rancherpix
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Canon Refurbished R5-$3,099 (3/20/23).


Mar 20, 2023 at 08:26 AM
Sy Sez
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Rumor: (Per Miriam Webster

"a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth."



Mar 20, 2023 at 08:49 AM
Jesse Evans
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Totally agree, I just don’t suspect they will bring a stacked sensor to the R5. It’ll be R1 for the high res stacked sensor (most likely).

stanj wrote:
Well a stacked sensor would be nice, so that ES becomes more generally usable.




Mar 21, 2023 at 01:51 PM
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