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Archive 2022 · R5 mkII rumors, questions

  
 
jedibrain
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Saw this today https://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-eos-r5-mark-ii-coming-in-q2-2023-cr2/

New 61MP CMOS BSI sensor
Dual DIGIC X processor
30 FPS electronic shutter with tracking / 12 FPS mechanical shutter
Same 8-stop IBIS
New High Resolution mode similar to pixel shift shooting found on Sony/Fujifilm
2x/4x/8x digital tele-convertor
Same Dual Pixel CMOS AF II from EOS R3 and EOS R6 Mark II
Internal 8K 60p video recording (8K RAW video spec to be confirmed)
Internal 4K 30p/60p/120p video recording (all by oversampling)
FHD 240p video recording
Focus breathing correction for video
New overheat prevention design similar to EOS R6 Mark II, at least 40min for 8K video, and over
60 min for 4K video
Dual CFexpress type B card slot
Standard HDMI port
Dual USB-C port
9.44M-dot EVF
New design of vari-angle LCD monitor optimized for video shooting
Launch time: 2023 Q2

So, rumors are rumors, but I like to talk gear and .maybe some of you do too.

My main question is, what does a BSI sensor do for rolling shutter, if anything?

I have And love the R6. Mainly shooting my daughter's sports. The speed and low file size and low ISO performance is great. And rolling shutter has not often been a problem.

But if I'm going to upgrade, an improvement in rolling shutter would be nice. Not sure the kid is going to keep playing much longer, so some MP and further low light performance may be handy for other general use. But it would still be nice to have something as sports capable as the R6.

I'd thought of saving up for a R1, but I'm no sure what it would really bring (time will tell), over something like this, besides the BSI sensor. I'm sure it will have a ton of features, but whether they are practically useful for me will remain to be seen, as well as the cost. R3 Would do it too, but at 3x the cost of the R6 and similar resolution, I'm not feeling it at it's current price. The next camera may be my last, so I'm doing a lot of thinking about what's what.



Brian



Nov 26, 2022 at 12:53 PM
Mike_5D
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I believe BSI brings better light sensitivity while stacking brings faster readouts and less rolling shutter.


Nov 26, 2022 at 01:11 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I question it is accurate. 61MP is what Sony uses and so are some of the other dubious features. I'd rather have a better R5 with 45MP and an R5s with >80MP.

EBH



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:16 PM
downhillonwater
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


The data throughput requirements of these specs for an R5II would be almost exactly double that of the R5. Hence the two DIGIC X. At least these rumored numbers seem internally consistent.

30fps x 61MP = 1830
20fps x 45MP = 900



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:37 PM
Betacamman
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


In my experience so far, the only way to really beat rolling shutter is to have a stacked sensor.


Nov 26, 2022 at 01:40 PM
jedibrain
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Mike_5D wrote:
I believe BSI brings better light sensitivity while stacking brings faster readouts and less rolling shutter.


So then the next question would be whether it can match the R5/R6 for rolling shutter performance, or if it will be worse.

We'll only know when we know I guess.

-Brian



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:41 PM
Mike_5D
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


jedibrain wrote:
So then the next question would be whether it can match the R5/R6 for rolling shutter performance, or if it will be worse.

We'll only know when we know I guess.

-Brian


I can't imagine it being worse than the previous generation. The R5 already beats the R6 for rolling shutter performance and the R62 beats the R6. I don't know how the R5 and R62 compare though.



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:46 PM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


You are an active participant on fm. The chances of this being your last camera purchase: pretty low imo.

No way man.



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:47 PM
jedibrain
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


EB-1 wrote:
I question it is accurate. 61MP is what Sony uses and so are some of the other dubious features. I'd rather have a better R5 with 45MP and an R5s with >80MP.

EBH


Well, its a rumor about something that might happen 6 months from now. So we can expect some inaccuracies!

I'd also rather have a 45mp BSI/Stacked sensor than a larger MP BSI/conventional. I suppose though at 61mp they may not need an AA filter at all, so might be nice like the 5DsR to get some crazy detail out of it.

For the MP on the sensors, I always suspected the final number has something to do with the technology available to make the proper size pixels. For instance, if your technology can go as small as X microns for a pixel, and your sensor size ratio is 3:2, then you can calculate how many MP your sensor will be for a FF. That may be why so many of the sensors from the various MFGs are so close to each other in MP. Just my speculation. This could explain it up to the point where you reach the next limitation - for instance maybe the Digic X can't quite handle the bandwidth they need to take the 32mp APSc sensors and scale them up to FF. So while they can make a smaller pixel, in this case they have to scale back to the data highway bandwidth limit of 2 Digic X processors.



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:49 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I'm curious as to what this "New High Resolution mode" is all about that is similar to pixel shift shooting?
And what would be the the limitations of such a feature? Limited fps I assume?

Regardless, I'm planning on setting tight with my R5 and skip the Mark II. By the time the Mark III comes out I'll be getting geared up to slide into retirement and will likely jump on the R5III.

At least that's what I keep telling myself and more importantly.... my wife.



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:49 PM
jedibrain
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


AmbientMike wrote:
You are an active participant on fm. The chances of this being your last camera purchase: pretty low imo.

No way man.


: ) Well, got a kid going off to college in the next 4 or 5 years, reaching the point of middle age where companies think you are too old/expensive and lay you off, then other companies think you are too old to hire even at a discounted salary. So you never know...

-Brian



Nov 26, 2022 at 01:50 PM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


jedibrain wrote:
: ) Well, got a kid going off to college in the next 4 or 5 years, reaching the point of middle age where companies think you are too old/expensive and lay you off, then other companies think you are too old to hire even at a discounted salary. So you never know...

-Brian


Yeah I was thinking about it the other day, don't kids eat money? yikes college. Hey, there's rebels. You think they make any money panhandling?



Nov 26, 2022 at 02:31 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


jedibrain wrote:
Well, its a rumor about something that might happen 6 months from now. So we can expect some inaccuracies!

I'd also rather have a 45mp BSI/Stacked sensor than a larger MP BSI/conventional. I suppose though at 61mp they may not need an AA filter at all, so might be nice like the 5DsR to get some crazy detail out of it.

For the MP on the sensors, I always suspected the final number has something to do with the technology available to make the proper size pixels. For instance, if your technology can go as small as X microns for
...Show more

45MP (5464x8192) is a size for 8K video without cropping. What does the 6336x9504 format (my a7RIV files) do for anything And why would the ARM processors not have better performance 3 years later? It all seems like a wish list, but nothing would surprise anymore. There is no legal or financial accountablity for the rumour accuracy.

EBH



Nov 26, 2022 at 02:40 PM
garyvot
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


A BSI sensor will not improve readout speeds much on its own, but will help with noise and possibly dynamic range.

The R3 remains the only Canon model with a stacked sensor to (more or less) eliminate rolling shutter and EVF blackout. However, the new R6 II is said to have a shorter readout speed, reducing the effects of rolling shutter compared to the R6 (and maybe the R5).

The feature list could be legit, or not. The "digital teleconverter" was also listed as a rumored feature of the R6 II, and it turned out to be smoke.



Nov 26, 2022 at 02:53 PM
JRobertson
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


Mike_5D wrote:
I can't imagine it being worse than the previous generation. The R5 already beats the R6 for rolling shutter performance and the R62 beats the R6. I don't know how the R5 and R62 compare though.


The R5 and the R6 are almost identical with rolling shutter. The R62 isn't a huge leap forward and it's not even in the same ballpark as the R3.



Nov 26, 2022 at 03:03 PM
johnvanr
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


I really can't think of anything I'd want in a R5 II that my R5 doesn't have, except for the eye control feature the R3 has. Even then, I don't think I'd shell out money for it.

My issues with the R5 could be addressed in firmware. I don't think they will, however.



Nov 26, 2022 at 03:09 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


There will not be much excuse for lack of 14-bit A/D in ES mode. That can't be improved with firmware.
The stupid 20FPS ES with no other options is sure to be rectified in a MK II.

EBH



Nov 26, 2022 at 03:41 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


R6II apparently allows the choice of 40, 20, 5 and 1 fps in e-shutter. Why they left out 10 baffles me. IMO it would be what I'd probably leave it at for most situations other than fast sports action and when I have the luxury of being able to work with the increased number of files generated at 20 or 40 fps.

My main question is if the R5II is ~60MP, what will Canon release to fill the substantial 'intermediate' range resolution gap of ~FF36-45MP?

Will it be an R5 refresh in another guise? Something more innovative? A pro-level speed demon to compete more directly with the Z9 and a1? Canon could keep selling the current R5 at somewhat of a discount, though this hasn't really happened with the R6, yet, and isn't something they've done before with their higher-end cameras, that I can recall.

jedibrain wrote:
My main question is, what does a BSI sensor do for rolling shutter, if anything?

But if I'm going to upgrade, an improvement in rolling shutter would be nice. Not sure the kid is going to keep playing much longer, so some MP and further low light performance may be handy for other general use. But it would still be nice to have something as sports capable as the R6.

I'd thought of saving up for a R1, but I'm no sure what it would really bring (time will tell), over something like this, besides the BSI sensor. I'm sure
...Show more

Well, the 24MP sensor in the R6II isn't BSI and apparently has improved rolling shutter vs. the R6, so it's probably relevant to the speed of the sensor and its components and not entirely its architecture. BSI is supposed to improve light collection efficiency for a given pixel size by moving non light sensing components out of the pixel well to behind/under it. Stacked sensors improve readout speed by moving related components closer to the pixels for faster processing. So far other than the R3, Canon found ways to adapt FSI and remain competitive... Consider that the R5's FSI sensor is higher resolution than the R6's and has slightly better rolling shutter performance. Given the pixel density of the R7's FSI sensor is approximately equivalent to 80MP on FF, it's conceivable Canon might continue to use FSI architecture for a while still if it remains competitive with BSI offerings. If you look at the Sony a7RIV and V, those both have horrible rolling shutter performance. But the stacked BSI sensor in the a1 (and also the one in the Z9) is much better in this regard.

So I don't think BSI is guaranteed, though it's possible Canon will develop something BSI-like that functions similarly.



Nov 26, 2022 at 04:25 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


lighthound wrote:
I'm curious as to what this "New High Resolution mode" is all about that is similar to pixel shift shooting?
And what would be the the limitations of such a feature? Limited fps I assume?


The primarily limitation of this feature is that it involves multiple exposures for each new position the sensor is shifted. It could be a full pixel shift resulting in four exposures combined into one for better color information than a single exposure from the Bayer CFA would allow, or it could be 16 half-pixel shifts that results in better fine detail sampling and improved color quality in a larger final file size than the sensor's native resolution.

While these exposures are done quickly, there are situations where subject movement will cause problems and result in strange artifacts. For example moving water in a river, branches and leaves blowing in the wind, people walking through a scene, etc. Tripod use is also recommended, though some cameras allow handheld use. And some are better than others at mitigating the problems introduced by subject movement.



Nov 26, 2022 at 04:44 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · R5 mkII rumors, questions


My Sony has that and it was one of the driving forces. I was quite disappointed. The rig and subject need to be very stationary. I get better results with panning and stitching (longer FL=more pixels).

EBH



Nov 26, 2022 at 07:25 PM
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