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Archive 2022 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?

  
 
lensfan
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


Dave Sanders wrote:
So, I guess the Batis 40 is the most logical answer...

So, we have all those lenses attractive in some way but not the definitive lens, on any platform. Not sure if I would call Sigma as the ultimate forty due to its size. Additionally, the size of its visible glass and 16 elements moved by HSM tell me it is probably not the fastest to focus.
Its like modern Noct. It exists, but who cares? Not trying to say, Sigma is a bad lens. Looking at the images from Sigma makes me want that ultimate practical forty to come to existence even more.



Nov 25, 2022 at 10:18 PM
chez
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


lensfan wrote:
So, we have all those lenses attractive in some way but not the definitive lens, on any platform. Not sure if I would call Sigma as the ultimate forty due to its size. Additionally, the size of its visible glass and 16 elements moved by HSM tell me it is probably not the fastest to focus.
Its like modern Noct. It exists, but who cares? Not trying to say, Sigma is a bad lens. Looking at the images from Sigma makes me want that ultimate practical forty to come to existence even more.


Is there truly this definitive lens at any focal length. Depending on ones needs, one's great lens is another's meh... That is why there are so many different lenses available...and many at the same focal lengths. You can't even use the mythical image quality as a gauge as a pin sharp digital made lens might be the cat's meow for one...whereas a lens with a bunch of character fits the bill for another.

So we just continue chasing our tails, never quite happy with what we got, always looking for that definitive lens that will elevate our images to the top level.



Nov 25, 2022 at 10:39 PM
lensfan
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


chez wrote:
Is there truly this definitive lens at any focal length. Depending on ones needs, one's great lens is another's meh... That is why there are so many different lenses available...and many at the same focal lengths. You can't even use the mythical image quality as a gauge as a pin sharp digital made lens might be the cat's meow for one...whereas a lens with a bunch of character fits the bill for another.

So we just continue chasing our tails, never quite happy with what we got, always looking for that definitive lens that will elevate our images to the top
...Show more

Obviously, I don't have that much experience as you guys, but I would call 35GM a today's definitive 35-mill lens. It excels at almost everything while keeping its size reasonable.
Now I can compare 35GM to 50GM and I would prefer to have 1.4/50GM if it behaved just like 35GM. I doubt 1.4>1.2 makes practical difference on a modern Sony body but the size of 1.4 would be even smaller than 35GM provided Sony turn on their curved glass magic here. If they called it 1.4/50G (w/o M) - would be fine with me.



Nov 25, 2022 at 10:47 PM
tsdevine
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


So you created this long running thread where the only acceptable answer (to you) was that it had to be a GM 40, for which you know doesn't exist?

Between the CV 40/1.2, Batis 40/2, and Sigma 40/1.4 you have a very good selection of relatively fast glass that each has unique traits that make them great lenses. The topic you chose for this thread seems misleading. Even the GM 35 is a heavy breather from what I understand, some would disqualify it from being great for that reason. Doesn't mean it isn't a great lens, but it also doesn't mean that there aren't other great lenses. There is no perfect lens.

I find the Sigma focuses fairly quickly (more so in AF-C) on my Sony a7R III BTW. I'll soon find out how it does on my a7R V when I receive it.

lensfan wrote:
Obviously, I don't have that much experience as you guys, but I would call 35GM a today's definitive 35-mill lens. It excels at almost everything while keeping its size reasonable.
Now I can compare 35GM to 50GM and I would prefer to have 1.4/50GM if it behaved just like 35GM. I doubt 1.4>1.2 makes practical difference on a modern Sony body but the size of 1.4 would be even smaller than 35GM provided Sony turn on their curved glass magic here. If they called it 1.4/50G (w/o M) - would be fine with me.





Nov 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM
lensfan
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


My thread was to discuss why there are no great/definitive/GM/L 40mm lenses on any platform.

I understand breathing is not an issue on newer bodies which provide breathing compensation for 35GM.

tsdevine wrote:
So you created this long running thread where the only acceptable answer (to you) was that it had to be a GM 40, for which you know doesn't exist?

Between the CV 40/1.2, Batis 40/2, and Sigma 40/1.4 you have a very good selection of relatively fast glass that each has unique traits that make them great lenses. The topic you chose for this thread seems misleading. Even the GM 35 is a heavy breather from what I understand, some would disqualify it from being great for that reason. Doesn't mean it isn't a great lens, but it also doesn't mean
...Show more



Nov 25, 2022 at 11:23 PM
tsdevine
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?



So the definition of a great lens in your mind is that it must be a GM or L? I think my CV 35 & 50 APOs are great...and I sort of had the impression you thought they were great too.

The Sigma 40/1.4 is near Otus quality from an optical perspective, but it's big and heavy. But I consider it a great lens.

I mean this gets silly....so relying on correcting the breathing in the camera makes the lens great? (Again, not saying the GM 35 isn't a great lens. But there are always tradeoffs in lens design, you just like the tradeoffs made for the GM 35.)

In any case, I understand (now) what your litmus test is for great. And at the end of the day, it's your thread. Partway through the thread you seemed to disqualify all 3rd party lenses, and consistently mentioned that there was no GM 40 or 40 L.....so it just seems like starting off by saying "Why isn't there a GM 40 and 40 L?" and we might have avoided giving you other great 40mm lenses that at the end of they day aren't a GM 40 or 40 L and don't qualify as great.

Anyway....I'm tired, and it's always dangerous posting when I'm tired.... Seems to me that the Batis 40 would be the closest thing to what you would consider a great lens. It's slightly slower than the GM's, and doesn't have the aperture selection and button the GM's do. And yes, it has that odd rubber focusing ring. But it produces beautiful images.

lensfan wrote:
My thread was to discuss why there are no great/definitive/GM/L 40mm lenses on any platform.

I understand breathing is not an issue on newer bodies which provide breathing compensation for 35GM.






Nov 25, 2022 at 11:36 PM
aCuria
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


Why stop at 40mm? Why not demand a 36mm, 37mm and so on?

In the end, the fov difference between 35mm and 40mm is too small, and 35mm has historically been more popular so why would Sony prioritize making a 40/1.4GM?

On SLR mounts 40mm was often used to make pancakes… it just so happened that a 40mm was smaller than a 35mm. This probably doesn’t hold true on FE mount, because that 40/2.5G is much larger than the EF mount one

The 24/1.4GM is lighter than the 35GM, a hypothetical 40GM is likely to be heavier than the 35



Nov 25, 2022 at 11:37 PM
mudnut
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


In my relatively short span in this hobby, obsessing over specs and chasing gear, I realized one doesn't need 'amazing' lenses to capture stunning, evocative, and memorable images. Go out and shoot more, get better, and enjoy.


Nov 25, 2022 at 11:45 PM
freaklikeme
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


lensfan wrote:
So, we have all those lenses attractive in some way but not the definitive lens, on any platform. Not sure if I would call Sigma as the ultimate forty due to its size. Additionally, the size of its visible glass and 16 elements moved by HSM tell me it is probably not the fastest to focus.
Its like modern Noct. It exists, but who cares? Not trying to say, Sigma is a bad lens. Looking at the images from Sigma makes me want that ultimate practical forty to come to existence even more.


The focusing speed on the Sigma is helped by the fact that the focusing group doesn't have to travel much from infinity to MFD. Not all sixteen elements move. And it's surprisingly quiet given the massive echo chamber in which it's housed. It won't ever be as fast or quiet as the GMs, but the difference in operational speed for stills is not something you have to work around unless you're trying to shoot humming birds with it.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to sell you on the lens. It's not one I'd own, but we use it work for some specific types of shooting and it never fails to impress. I wouldn't let the difference in operational speed kill my interest if the focal length and optical performance were must-haves. And they would have to be must-haves to drag that boat anchor around.



Nov 26, 2022 at 12:53 AM
BPsmith511
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


This thread makes little to no sense for me. OP Seems to want a concrete answer to the question "Why is there no 40mm GM" but also would want that 40mm to not be heavy or large, while somehow also being up to the high optical standards of a GM lens, which makes lenses.... heavier and larger.

That's why. Because if you have an 40mm lens with your wanted technical specs, with AF, it is going to be larger and heavier than most people want, at a higher price, and thus will sell less... so it won't get made or it will get made way later on in the system when other lenses have been fleshed out.

Edited on Nov 26, 2022 at 06:59 AM · View previous versions



Nov 26, 2022 at 02:39 AM
Alan Parker
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


lensfan wrote:
Hey Alan. Somehow I found myself on your Batis 40/London Flickr page. Its like I'm once again in London exactly 10 years ago - same places, same shots.


Thanks! I mostly got the Batis 40 at the time because I was looking for a 40mm autofocus lens that had good weather sealing/durability. For work I occasionally have to visit construction sites and the Batis 40 is one of the few lenses I trust in an environment like that.
Sigma does make a lot of smaller and nice lenses these days, for example their 35/2. Just nothing in the 40mm range, and nothing that quite hits the sweet spot like the Batis 40 did for me in terms of size/performance in the second hand market. I occasionally see the Sigma 40/1.4 for around 800 EUR in the used market but it's just not there you know. It's too heavy for the price you pay.



Nov 26, 2022 at 06:30 AM
chez
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


lensfan wrote:
Obviously, I don't have that much experience as you guys, but I would call 35GM a today's definitive 35-mill lens. It excels at almost everything while keeping its size reasonable.
Now I can compare 35GM to 50GM and I would prefer to have 1.4/50GM if it behaved just like 35GM. I doubt 1.4>1.2 makes practical difference on a modern Sony body but the size of 1.4 would be even smaller than 35GM provided Sony turn on their curved glass magic here. If they called it 1.4/50G (w/o M) - would be fine with me.


Yet some prefer the rendering of the 35 za so to call the GM as the definitive 35mm lens a little premature. In fact for my needs at 35mm, the tiny Sony 35 2.8 lens is what I have in my bag during travels. Bottom line there is no definitive lens, everyone has their own requirements.



Nov 26, 2022 at 09:39 AM
GMPhotography
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


I got very turned off by Zeiss and the 40mm Issues. Never had the heart to buy it as they really screwed that whole thing up. We have other options for sure now


Nov 26, 2022 at 09:58 AM
lensfan
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


tsdevine wrote:
So the definition of a great lens in your mind is that it must be a GM or L? I think my CV 35 & 50 APOs are great...and I sort of had the impression you thought they were great too.

The Sigma 40/1.4 is near Otus quality from an optical perspective, but it's big and heavy. But I consider it a great lens.

I mean this gets silly....so relying on correcting the breathing in the camera makes the lens great? (Again, not saying the GM 35 isn't a great lens. But there are always tradeoffs in lens design, you just
...Show more

I refer to GM or L as usually they represent the most well rounded pinnacle lenses for these platforms, a combination of optical excellence, fast F/T stops, mechanical and auto focus performance, reasonable weight. This may not always be true, but for example 24GM and 35GM seem to be in their own league today if you consider these qualities all together. Individual rendering preferences should not change that. I give credit to 35GM but, as I said earlier in another thread, my eye sees its images as 'not engaging enough' as so much detail is retained throughout the frame, transitions are smooth and mind needs to make effort to see what to focus on.

I did not bring up the breathing issue. I only focus on stills, so not being corrected for breathing is not an issue for me. Looks like Sony will rely on computational breathing compensation for its photography lenses. I understand, it works well enough so additional weight and money can be saved as a result of this design compromise.

Don't want to disqualify all 3rd party lenses for them being 3rd party. But as of today, all those lenses designed in such a way that they do not claim 'definitive' status.
As to Sigma - I feel like Otus showed them this path: you create huge and heavy lens which performs at very high level optically, but usability is sacrificed. As a result, how many of these huge lenses are sold and actually shot outside of testing cycle /studio environment?

As to 35 and 50 APO-L, I too believe them to be great lenses. I would still use 50 APO-L before 50GM for everything but people/low light. But these were not brave enough to go to 1.4 or provide AF, so I personally cannot consider them as definitive.



Nov 26, 2022 at 11:24 AM
lensfan
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


freaklikeme wrote:
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to sell you on the lens. It's not one I'd own, but we use it work for some specific types of shooting and it never fails to impress. I wouldn't let the difference in operational speed kill my interest if the focal length and optical performance were must-haves. And they would have to be must-haves to drag that boat anchor around.


I know, you are not. But your comments are very informative and helpful, so please continue.



Nov 26, 2022 at 11:31 AM
tsdevine
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


Right, you didn't bring up breathing, but you defined great in such a way that it took a page or two for us to understand what your definition of great is. You don't care about breathing, someone else may not care about size and weight, a third person, may not even consider a MF lens (at all) as ever possibly being great. I was using that as an example to try to show that your idea of great may not be 100% the same as everyone else. So it was just a bit frustrating to tease out your definition of great.

Just to give an example, I think the GM 24mm has great rendering....but I don't think it's the absolute best for landscape shooting. As you stop down there is quite a bit of CA at the periphery (at least my copy) that cuts down on the resolution after correction. Still think it's a great lens, but maybe not the absolute best at everything.

In any case, you want a 40mm that aligns to the compromises that Sony has been prioritizing with the GMs. Maybe we'll see one some day, who knows.

lensfan wrote:
I refer to GM or L as usually they represent the most well rounded pinnacle lenses for these platforms, a combination of optical excellence, fast F/T stops, mechanical and auto focus performance, reasonable weight. This may not always be true, but for example 24GM and 35GM seem to be in their own league today if you consider these qualities all together. Individual rendering preferences should not change that. I give credit to 35GM but, as I said earlier in another thread, my eye sees its images as 'not engaging enough' as so much detail is retained throughout the frame, transitions
...Show more




Nov 26, 2022 at 11:32 AM
lensfan
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


Alan Parker wrote:
For work I occasionally have to visit construction sites and the Batis 40 is one of the few lenses I trust in an environment like that.
Sigma does make a lot of smaller and nice lenses these days, for example their 35/2. Just nothing in the 40mm range, and nothing that quite hits the sweet spot like the Batis 40 did for me in terms of size/performance in the second hand market. I occasionally see the Sigma 40/1.4 for around 800 EUR in the used market but it's just not there you know. It's too heavy for the price
...Show more

Being around flying cement dust with a camera is what I would call extreme.



Nov 26, 2022 at 11:34 AM
lensfan
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


tsdevine wrote:
Right, you didn't bring up breathing, but you defined great in such a way that it took a page or two for us to understand what your definition of great is. You don't care about breathing, someone else may not care about size and weight, a third person, may not even consider a MF lens (at all) as ever possibly being great. I was using that as an example to try to show that your idea of great may not be 100% the same as everyone else. So it was just a bit frustrating to tease out your definition of
...Show more

Yeah, my thread title was not perfect probably. 24GM is definitely not perfect and that CA weakness is the reason I don't own one today. But we never had such a good 24mm lens (overall package) before.
People may have different preferences and priorities but I still think there is a combination of objective qualities which can make a lens stand out.



Nov 26, 2022 at 11:40 AM
lensfan
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


tsdevine wrote:
The Sigma 40/1.4 is near Otus quality from an optical perspective, but it's big and heavy. But I consider it a great lens.


This Sigma 40 can be the best forty there ever was. Images I see are very appealing. But do you use it a lot yourself? I'm afraid I will not be taking it outside simply due to its weight and size.



Nov 26, 2022 at 11:37 PM
Frogfish
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Why there is no a really great 40mm lens?


mudnut wrote:
In my relatively short span in this hobby, obsessing over specs and chasing gear, I realized one doesn't need 'amazing' lenses to capture stunning, evocative, and memorable images. Go out and shoot more, get better, and enjoy.


I couldn't agree more. I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread, probably because I value the opinions of some of the posters, but to be honest this obsessing by the OP and denigration of some superb lenses on the basis of spurious ideals does my head in, as does the title.

There are some wonderful 40mm lenses out there (and I'd include 35mm lenses in the dialogue since cropping on a high MP camera works extremely well), whether any specific lens is right for any individual will depend on how they are intended to be used and the specific preferences of said individual.
In the final analysis only one thing matters - what does the final image look like? There are a plethora of superb images out there - many on this forum - taken with 40mm lenses. If you are not capable of taking them then I'd say that says more about you and your technique than it does about some of the outstanding lenses available.

NB.
On including 35mm lenses in a 40mm evaluation on a FF camera : the AoV of 35mm is 63 degrees 20 mins vs 40mm at 56 degrees 40 mins. Roughly a 7 degree loss, or ca. one or two metres forward. To convert that into the MP loss if cropping a FF image then on a 61mp it would become 53+ mp (x 0.875) and on a 24mp camera it becomes 21mp. In both cases of course you've taken away the weakest, usually most distorted, area of the image, the extreme corners and edges.

Edited on Nov 27, 2022 at 11:24 AM · View previous versions



Nov 27, 2022 at 12:56 AM
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