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adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop

  
 
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


I have an adobe RGB monitor (bought it 6 months ago) and iMac 5k 2017 and an older apple display monitor. Canon R5. .
My pictures are generally worked on with 2017 iMac 2017 with colour checking editing done on the 2k adobe RGB monitor switching back and forth between SRGB and ARGB to see the differences.

I shoot raw. Most of my "printing" is for web - emails to friends, posting on FM, posting on smug mug. I shoot mostly landscape and big dark mostly still animals (grizzly, moose, sometimes wolf, sometimes polar bears).

Here is my question - what process do you recommend.
I read Ken Rockwell who suggested that unless you are a specialist, stick to srgb all the way through, because it gives consistent results on internet/monitors and printers are good at printing with it - and unless you are a colour space guru, you are likely to screw up along the way. And if you process in SRGB and stick to it all the way through, it will look good in print.
When I print, I like to print big 48x32 because I have very large walls in a very large house.

ARGB in camera, Then ARGB in LR, photoshop. And then export with srgb when ready to upload. And exported to argb when sent to print.?

Or stick to SRGB all the way through.?

Or some other process?

What I am finding is that I will get to the end and discover that I have been flipping back and forth between colour spaces.

Scott



Nov 13, 2022 at 01:11 PM
AnnJS
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


I suggest a different approach:
Convert your RAW camera images to ProPhotoRGB and do all processing in the ProPhoto RGB space and on 16-bit files; and save your Master files in that format.

Only when you need to output your images for a special purpose (be that for Offset Press, inkjet printer or for the Web) should you make a copy of your Master file and convert the copy to both the correct dimensions, ppi and color space for your particular purpose.

sRGB would be correct for the internet;
AdobeRGB will work for Offset printing;
while if you are controlling your own inkjet printer, you can feed it ProPhoto RGB data and the correct paper profile.



Nov 13, 2022 at 02:44 PM
kenbennett
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


What AnnJS said.

It doesn't matter what camera setting you choose - sRGB or aRGB - those are only applied to JPEG files. Your raw files have the most color data, and Lightroom and Photoshop work internally in the very wide gamut Pro Photo RGB space.

If you are printing yourself, you can print from Lightroom's excellent print module and have the wide gamut color space all the way to the printer. If you are sending photos to someone else digitally, or posting them on the web, export them as sRGB for best compatibility.



Nov 13, 2022 at 03:10 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


LrC is ProPhoto so I set PS to ProPhoto. You can convert the profile when done. Also you can PS export for web legacy method.


Nov 13, 2022 at 03:41 PM
dclark
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


The advice from Ken Rockwell, as per usual, is awful.

aRGB in camera only refers to JPEG images, which also impacts the display on the back of the camera and the profile used when you load the RAW file into LR or PS. In other words it means very little (since you shoot RAW).

When you bring a RAW file into LR all the edits are done using a color space that is close to ProPhotoRGB, which has a very large gamut. That is to be sure no colors are clipped. It really does not matter, as long as the color space used is larger than any color space you intend to output to. In LR and PS it is very large.

You should calibrate your monitor to take full advantage of the full gamut of your monitor. Not sRGB or aRGB. The full gamut.

When you get ready to export your edited RAW file as a JPEG or TIF (or anything else) for on-line display, you will need to select the color space you want. That selection is made in the LR export module. At that point select sRGB or aRGB.

The idea that all the internet is sRGB is several years out of date. That is no longer true. All browsers that I know of are well color managed and will detect embedded profiles and properly render them. If your image has limited color gamut sRGB is fine. I tend to use aRGB. If you want to do a quick check to see if any colors are being remapped or clipped to fit into sRGB or aRGB, use the soft proofing capability of LR or PS. It's simple.

Learning to use soft proofing is even more important for printing since the color rendition of the print depends on the printer and media being used. You need to have a profile for the printer and the paper to properly soft proof the file. One element of soft proofing is the possibility to edit the file to look as good as possible in the available gamut of the print. LR will suggest making a copy when you start soft proofing. I always take that suggestion and then edit for the best possible print. If you are making large prints for display you definitely should take the time to get good profiles for the printers and papers you are using, learn to soft proof and edit for the best possible print. That is more important for landscapes than wildlife, since the scene gamut can be large.

Dave



Nov 13, 2022 at 08:02 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


Scott Stoness wrote:
I shoot raw. Most of my "printing" is for web - emails to friends, posting on FM, posting on smug mug. I shoot mostly landscape and big dark mostly still animals (grizzly, moose, sometimes wolf, sometimes polar bears).

Here is my question - what process do you recommend.


Whoa. I rarely do prints anymore, so since different people are viewing my images on different monitors of size, colour rendition, and quality, I see no point in doing anymore than just shooting in RAW with Adobe RGB. Apply a few basic post-processing adjustments in ACR and Photoshop, and post or email. I have neither the time nor inclination to spend excess and unnecessary time on a computer when I can be out taking photos.

Unless one can see the EXIF, most people do not have a clue what format I used, whether I shot in RAW or jpeg, what camera or lens I used, what colour space I used, etc., etc.

Go ahead and tell me what I used and/or what I should have used, and why:







Nov 13, 2022 at 10:42 PM
Camperjim
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


If you are worried about processing for viewing on internet/monitors, you are wasting your time. You may see some differences related to color space (on rare occasions), but the vast majority of others will not see them. Monitors vary greatly in quality and handling of colors. Most viewers will not have calibrated monitors. Instead their monitors will be way too bright with a bluish tint. Different browsers and viewers can give different results. I have a PC and view using the Microsoft Photos app. Results will be similar to what I see with Photoshop but if I use the slideshow app, it seems to add saturation and contrast. I long ago concluded that it is a lost cause trying to fine tune any images for the internet.

Certainly that would not be the case for viewing by other photographers. Don't count on it. Sure some photographers use calibrated monitors. They also often have high resolution monitors and they take your downsized image and view it full screen. No a lost cause.

I do concern myself with best possible processing for printing. My 17" printer works on 8 bits and has a gamut close to Adobe RGB. There is no sense for me to work in a large color space and then allow the printer software to compress the gamut. For any metal or large prints from outside printers, all of the printers I had used required sRGB files.

Also, if my monitor is roughly sRGB, why in the world would I try to make processing and color choices in a large gamut when I cannot see the outcome?

As photographers we often talk about matching monitor displays with print results. Anyone who does much printing knows this is just nonsense. Pigment or dye based inks will never match results seen on a monitor with transmitted light. Instead experience and personal taste will help guide our processing to achieve the print results we desire.

Ken Rockwell often comes up with some click bait ideas to generate attention, but I largely agree with him on this issue. Instead of sRGB, I do save my edited files in aRGB tiff format but I suspect that rarely makes any difference and I could never give an example showing aRGB or tiff vs jpeg would give me better monitor or print quality results.

Of course, the purists will disagree and can support their arguments with 3D gamut graphs. Somehow that never translates into noticeable monitor or print quality.



Nov 14, 2022 at 07:07 AM
sbay
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


First, are you calibrating your monitors? The is a must do step. Also make sure your brightness is appropriate (most people have it way too high).

Second your iMac is a wide gamut space DCI-P3. This is not the same as adobe RGB (they have different color areas where they are better). So the adobe RGB monitor may not be better than your iMac screen depending on what colors you are looking at. You might be able to simplify by just using the iMac screen. Both are better than sRGB.

My process is the same as others recommending. Edit in a 16-bit large gamut space like prophoto and then drop down to sRGB for export to the web. LR internally uses prophoto (or some similar variant) for developing.

If you see artifacts / color shifts in the sRGB export, then I would go back and create a tweaked version just for that specific output.



Nov 14, 2022 at 08:51 AM
bobby350z
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


Why use sRGB when export to web? Is that as typical consumer/client is using cheaper sRGB display?


Nov 14, 2022 at 09:12 PM
Ho1972
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


I read Ken Rockwell...
My condolences.



Nov 14, 2022 at 09:29 PM
 


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Peter Figen
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


Imagemaster wrote:
Whoa. I rarely do prints anymore, so since different people are viewing my images on different monitors of size, colour rendition, and quality, I see no point in doing anymore than just shooting in RAW with Adobe RGB. Apply a few basic post-processing adjustments in ACR and Photoshop, and post or email. I have neither the time nor inclination to spend excess and unnecessary time on a computer when I can be out taking photos.

Unless one can see the EXIF, most people do not have a clue what format I used, whether I shot in RAW or jpeg, what camera
...Show more

Well, you used Adobe RGB as your embedded color space here although all the other metadata was deleted. Here's where it makes a difference. When you post an Adobe RGB image to a website or attach it to an email, most of the people who are goin to view it are still going to be on sRGB gamut monitors and likely a large group of them are going to be using non color managed browsers or email applications. Hell, even Apple Mail isn't properly color managed. So, when you send or post this, anyone viewing in a color managed app on a wide gamut screen will see it more or less correctly, and I say more or less, because we have no idea what the state of your monitor is, which is what you based your color edit on, but anyone who falls into the group I mentioned above, those viewing on non color managed apps with older sRGB screens, well, they're going to see a substantially less saturated version than the one you intended, and maybe that doesn't matter, but maybe it does. And, on this particular image, there is no hit whatsoever from converting it to sRGB because the gamut of this image is fully contained within sRGB, or so close that you can't see it. You can check this for yourself by first, using the Assign Profile command to assign sRGB to the image. The preview there will show you how much of a saturation hit it takes doing that, then back out of that and do a Convert to Profile command and convert to sRGB. In that preview there is no change to the appearance of the image.

So, this particular image is a good one to demonstrate why it's still better to send and post sRGB images, as the greatest number of viewers or recipients will see that correctly as compared to the Adobe RGB version, which, in this case, only has wasted and unused color gamut.

Now if you had posted an image with lots of deep saturated blues like I posted recently in other sections here, converting to sRGB was problematic as those deep blues tend to become less saturated and more magenta in the conversion. My choice was to live with it but do a Selective Color move to remove yellow and magenta and boost cyan in the sRGB jpegs I posted. Seemed like the best compromise.



Nov 15, 2022 at 03:23 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


All probably true, but not my point. I donít care to waste my time on all that gamut-mucking around, and like I said, most people viewing electronic images donít care or notice such differences. That is in addition to them all seeing different colors, sizes, contrast, etc., etc.


Nov 15, 2022 at 04:03 PM
ruthenium
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


We cannot know whether "most people viewing electronic images donít care" (or if they do).
One can choose to believe one way or another.
Even assuming that most people don't care means that some do; thus, there is a choice of lowering or raising one's standards.
The Japanese word Kaizen means "the pursuit of perfection in all one does. The term is applicable across the areas of oneís life and represents a guiding ethic for conducting a life."
Striving for perfection is ethical.



Nov 15, 2022 at 09:19 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


Strive for perfection all you want. It has nothing to do with ethics. Of the many that may be viewing your image on many different devices, which viewers are going to determine if it is perfection




Nov 15, 2022 at 10:59 PM
Camperjim
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


"Striving for perfection". I can only think we have another technologist with a camera. I strive to be an artist. There is no perfection, just attempts to use the visual language to express my artistic intentions.


Nov 16, 2022 at 08:06 AM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


sbay wrote:
LR internally uses prophoto (or some similar variant) for developing.


ACR/LR are using a lot of different color spaces in the pipeline ( cieXYZ/D50 for example is one of them )... Prophoto with linear gamma is just one of them used in some parts of color transform process ... do not make generic statements if you have no clue.




Nov 16, 2022 at 05:39 PM
dclark
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


exdeejjjaaaa wrote:
ACR/LR are using a lot of different color spaces in the pipeline ( cieXYZ/D50 for example is one of them )... Prophoto with linear gamma is just one of them used in some parts of color transform process ... do not make generic statements if you have no clue.


Can you provide some info on your statement about "color spaces in the pipeline".




Nov 16, 2022 at 09:00 PM
jeffbuzz
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


I suggest reading through these FAQ's: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/kb/color-faq.html

The important bits to note are that Lightroom has some preset defaults that vary from module to module and those defaults generally narrow the gamut as you move towards final output. Whether or not that is a good thing for you depends on lots or other factors.

Color management is a complex topic that deserves understanding even if you are simply using all the default settings. It is about control. You can control your editing and output results with more granularity by using appropriate color spaces along the way.

Here is an old but still perfectly relevant color management primer still available from X-rite



Nov 17, 2022 at 11:11 AM
dclark
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


jeffbuzz wrote:
I suggest reading through these FAQ's: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/kb/color-faq.html

The important bits to note are that Lightroom has some preset defaults that vary from module to module and those defaults generally narrow the gamut as you move towards final output. Whether or not that is a good thing for you depends on lots or other factors.

Color management is a complex topic that deserves understanding even if you are simply using all the default settings. It is about control. You can control your editing and output results with more granularity by using appropriate color spaces along the way.

Here is an old but still perfectly
...Show more

I think you may be responding to my comment.

If you look at the Adobe FAQ you will see the words "edit" and "render". LR edits files using ProPhotoRGB color encoding. LR renders files for display, printing, etc, in a variety of color spaces as appropriate. The prior comments by me and @sbay@ were about how LR edits (or develops) images and why using a large color space is best. The FAQ you cite makes the same point.

@exdeejjjaaaa posted his comment responding to @sbay@ with some stuff about "pipelines". His comment was in error but normally would not warrant a response. Lots of comments contain errors. What made his comment difficult to pass by was the fact the he included an insult to @sbay@. Consequently I asked him for information on his claim so that his error would become manifest.

You also provide a link to the X-Rite PDF (BTW, the link is broken). That's a good reference even though it was publish 17 years ago. Not much has changed in the basics of color management. My only comment is to note that for some reason they avoid using the term "Profile Connection Space" or PCS. They show it graphically in figure 13. I think misunderstanding what a PCS is and how it it used is the root of a lot of the errors in discussing or using color management.

Unfortunately there is no recent book on color management that I can recommend. Fraser, Murphy and Bunting is good but very dated (CRT displays!). Regardless it's still good on the basics. The more recent book by Sharma is written in a murky misleading style and has a few errors that make it impossible to recommend.

Thanks for your comment.


Nov 17, 2022 at 03:49 PM
jeffbuzz
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · adobe rgb vs srgb and LR and Photohop


dclark wrote:
I think you may be responding to my comment.

If you look at the Adobe FAQ you will see the words "edit" and "render". LR edits files using ProPhotoRGB color encoding. LR renders files for display, printing, etc, in a variety of color spaces as appropriate. The prior comments by me and @sbay@@@ were about how LR edits (or develops) images and why using a large color space is best. The FAQ you cite makes the same point.

@exdeejjjaaaa@ posted his comment responding to @sbay@@@ with some stuff about "pipelines". His comment was in error but normally would not warrant a response.
...Show more

The https://xritephoto.com/documents/literature/en/L11-176_Guide_to_CM_en.pdf link works for me. I just wanted to share some basic info as a starting point for the OP whom I believe may just be beginning their journey down the color management rabbit hole. It is nearly impossible to provide a brief answer to any color question and provide foundational facts. I agree that anyone who wants to actually understand the process needs to ingest a good book or three on the subject. Short of that, you really just need to stick with the defaults or accept a recommended recipe.

So I suppose my brief answer to the OP is this: Unless you can explain why you need to use anything other than sRGB, don't.



Nov 17, 2022 at 07:19 PM
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