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Archive 2022 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - f...

  
 
eyal
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


I do NOT write this lightly and have informed Flickr of both instances but am concerned this is a much bigger problem than I anticipated so wanted to share with others who may have similar photos on Flickr.

I am primarily a landscape photographer but began to capture high school football last year and added high school cheer this year as my daughter is on the JV team. I post images to Flickr and share them with the team/parents. Until now I did have 'hide your stuff from public searches' set to NO but just changed that.

Anyway, last week, I noticed a number of notifications of someone 'favoriting' images of the cheer team but found it odd that I did not recognize the last name but, even more so, that they were favoriting multiple different girls. I figured a parent/relative would only like their own child's photos. I clicked the user and found their favorites filled with preteen/teen girls from various sporting events with some incredibly obvious choices that made it clear to me this was a pedophile.

I immediately reported the user to Flickr via the Report form and nothing happened for 24 hours. I then sent a DM via Twitter to Flickr Help and, again, nothing happened. I sent a strongly worded and long email/report with a screenshot of this user's favorites and advised Flickr I expected them to relay this information to authorities rather than just banning the account. The account is now banned but I received nothing more than a 1 sentence reply from Flickr and nothing about their plans.

This morning, I found a new favorite of a cheer image from the Friday night game which included my daughter. This was not an image I would think of as in any way provocative. They were all standing waiting for the half time show to commence. Again, the user favoriting the photo was not recognizable to me so I clicked the username and checked their favorites only to find a similar set of 'collected' images of teen/preteen girls that were again very obviously pedophile material.

I took a screenshot and immediately emailed Flickr but, at this point, I have grave concerns and wanted to share them with others who may find their photos used in similar situations.

I am awaiting a response from Flickr but am considering alerting tech media (TheVerge, etc) about this out of concern as a parent.

I can share the screenshots with Fred if he needs proof but did not think it appropriate to post otherwise.

Appreciate your thoughts/suggestions.



Oct 09, 2022 at 08:43 AM
Mike Lucas
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


I totally disagree with your conclusions. Your theory is that these supposed pedophiles can't resist favoriting your pictures - ones that by your standards are not the least bit provocative. Is it possible they just like your pictures? Are your shots that bad that no one could like them? Are they not only pedophiles but stupid pedophiles? Why would an actual pedophile favorite your picture and call attention to themself?

This got me on my soapbox because I've seen this attitude before. Anyone taking any pictures of any child must be a pedophile. Anyone looking at a picture of child, no matter how innocent, must be a pedophile. I always ask before I take a picture of a child not because it's illegal or in my view immoral, but because parents are overly protective and I don't want to deal with them. While it's obviously self-serving to say, I like women, not girls but I like photography and I like to make good pictures of interesting subjects.

Go to the main web page of Flickr. Type cheer in the search box. Hundreds of pictures appear. Do you really have to favorite your pictures to find cheer photos?



Oct 09, 2022 at 10:27 AM
eyal
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


Mike Lucas wrote:
I totally disagree with your conclusions. Your theory is that these supposed pedophiles can't resist favoriting your pictures - ones that by your standards are not the least bit provocative. Is it possible they just like your pictures? Are your shots that bad that no one could like them? Are they not only pedophiles but stupid pedophiles? Why would an actual pedophile favorite your picture and call attention to themself?

This got me on my soapbox because I've seen this attitude before. Anyone taking any pictures of any child must be a pedophile. Anyone looking at a picture of child,
...Show more

WOW - quite the soapbox you have there.

No, my photos are not provocative nor 'so bad that no one could like them'.

When I visited the users who had raised my suspicions I found hundreds of non-cheer photos with girls in various poses including, but not limited to, tight shots of handstands with legs open, surfers/body-boarders wearing thongs and with those photos focused on the buttocks, girls in mid-ballet poses with legs raised in the air. There is no question in my mind these users were collecting unintentionally provocative images that were not mine. They just happened to favorite some of mine that I would not consider provocative in the least.

Again, the only reason I was alerted was that an unknown user was favoriting multiple different photos of girls. That's weird.



Oct 09, 2022 at 10:42 AM
eyal
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


Addendum to above:

1. Clearly Flickr was in agreement with me as both users were immediately banned/removed

2. These users had no photos of their own. They were collecting images.

3. Yes, they really do seem to be that stupid. If they had downloaded images, I never would have been alerted to this.



Oct 09, 2022 at 10:46 AM
Mike Lucas
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


I guess I missed the part about them having suspicious pictures on their site. Shouldn't answer posts early in the morning. I read they liked my photos therefore they're pedophiles. But I will make one more point that I would suspect is obvious to most - It's not the random people that are the greatest danger to your child, it's the ones that they trust - coaches, priests, doctors, etc. that you have to worry about.

And I agree with your last conclusion - these are stupid pedophiles.



Oct 09, 2022 at 11:44 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


eyal wrote:
an unknown user was favoriting multiple different photos of girls. That's weird.


Teenager


Other scenarios:

Budding sports photographer, colleting emulations (or avoidance)
Editor / Teacher showing the diff
Someone writing an article on the lack of decorum in other's photography
Other


Haven't seen the pics ... which were taken by persons other than the "unknown user". No intent to do so.
Just saying' I'd be careful about calling unknown persons the "P" word. It would be my luck that the person would be a teenager whose parents were judges and lawyers well versed in slander, libel and defamation.

I'm not sure that there's anything weird about a hormonal teenager looking at pictures of pretty girls. You stated that some of those images were clearly non-provocative, yet you also determined the person was clearly of "P" character.

So, if you don't know the facts, you don't know.
Which, is where alerting others (Flickr, authorities, etc.) to investigate has value if one is concerned.

If we put our work out in the public domain ... well, it's a big public out there.

I'm not saying there aren't some less than ideal folks out there, there may be. Just from where we sit, we may not be able to make the assessment with 100% accuracy. I know I've had multiple occasions where folks have called LEO to assess me as being up to no good when taking pics of minors (Americana, family interaction, etc.) ... only to have LEO always find out that I'm above board ... despite having been adjudicated by the public in advance.

Your call, carry on.




Oct 09, 2022 at 12:04 PM
eyal
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


RustyBug wrote:
Teenager

Other scenarios:

Budding sports photographer, colleting emulations (or avoidance)
Editor / Teacher showing the diff
Someone writing an article on the lack of decorum in other's photography
Other

Haven't seen the pics ... which were taken by persons other than the "unknown user". No intent to do so.
Just saying' I'd be careful about calling unknown persons the "P" word. It would be my luck that the person would be a teenager whose parents were judges and lawyers well versed in slander, libel and defamation.

I'm not sure that there's anything weird about a hormonal teenager looking at pictures of pretty girls. You stated
...Show more

Good points. Yes it is a judgement call. Both accounts gone but I think, especially among photographers, you would have quickly noted the 'collection' of photos and come to a similar conclusion. Sure, could have been a teen just as easily and I have no way of knowing and hope Flickr has some of that information (though it can all be faked).

My concern with putting this post up is that I had naively not expected this behavior on Flickr. Stupid in hindsight. But I'm sure that 99% of the works being favorited were by photographers who also had no clue that this was occurring. I wanted to call it out and I think the 'P' word, while loaded, is appropriate for the potential of this situation.

I did not name names nor share my now deleted screenshots of the accounts. So libel/defamation does not hold.

I have now gone through my Flickr settings and am far more aggressive there. Also have deleted all tags and am struggling to figure out how to keep those from being uploaded via the Lightroom plugin. I did a test re-publish after setting exif only to copyright but the tags persisted so will have to watch that.



Oct 09, 2022 at 01:38 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


eyal wrote:
Good points. Yes it is a judgement call. Both accounts gone but I think, especially among photographers, you would have quickly noted the 'collection' of photos and come to a similar conclusion. Sure, could have been a teen just as easily and I have no way of knowing and hope Flickr has some of that information (though it can all be faked).

My concern with putting this post up is that I had naively not expected this behavior on Flickr. Stupid in hindsight. But I'm sure that 99% of the works being favorited were by photographers who also had no clue
...Show more

Gotcha ... glad you understood. I'm not familiar with how Flickr plays these days.
I checked out on them long ago when I had a breach. Might be diff now, so I'm not one to know how to best approach things with them.

BTW, I saw some of your landscape on your www ...



Oct 09, 2022 at 02:20 PM
kreegerk
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


I would add... they also could be using it for clickbait to something else ... There are web sites with tons of search referrals setup by only for the purpose to direct one thing to another thing for clicks... which convert to money... the traffic to content which has nothing to do with the image happens a lot, especially outside the US...


Oct 09, 2022 at 03:39 PM
01Ryan10
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


Why not build your own website and make password protected galleries? It will look better on you than having to use Flickr anyway. I think i pay ~$100/year for my Squarespace website. Built it myself...unbelievably easy these days. I'm like you, a landscape photog hobbyist, but will photograph my kids school sports/activities and post on an unpublished, password protected page.

www.ryanlunaphotography.com



Oct 09, 2022 at 04:06 PM
eyal
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


01Ryan10 wrote:
Why not build your own website and make password protected galleries? It will look better on you than having to use Flickr anyway. I think i pay ~$100/year for my Squarespace website. Built it myself...unbelievably easy these days. I'm like you, a landscape photog hobbyist, but will photograph my kids school sports/activities and post on an unpublished, password protected page.

www.ryanlunaphotography.com


I actually do have my own site for landscapes but decided on Flickr for sports for a few (well two that I can think of) reasons:
1. Lots of images = lots of space used and my current host bases on gigs used
2. Flickr has very good notification if you Follow a photographer to be alerted to new photos. All members of the football/cheer team follow me so it is zero work to have them made aware of new photos being posted



Oct 09, 2022 at 04:23 PM
RickPJ
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


The insistence that pictures of a legitimate sport (cheer) should be placed behind a password protected wall, is disturbing on a lot of levels.

I shoot high school and college sports. Cheer is one of them. It is an integral part of the game experience for a number of sports.

My editor(s) and publishers ultimately decide which of my pics go public. I do not have a website where I display my wares for two reasons. The first is that I am too lazy to do it and the other is that I am usually on someone else's dime. But once published, the shots I make are out there forever.

The time to police a shot is before you send it to be published. I do not submit for publication any shot that would embarrass a young person (or anyone when it can be avoided) and, they would be unlikely to be published if I did. So what I might ask the OP is, if you are concerned that your shots may be ill used, why are you publishing them?

I have no desire to be the thought police for the images I post. That is not, IMO, within the realm of photojournalism. And I would be very reluctant to accuse someone of so heinous a crime without a whole lot of evidence.

And I would point out, just as an observation, that this could be considered an issue that is gender neutral. And that in making this sort of concern a real issue we risk not validating and recognizing the work that (in this case female) sports participants deserve as athletes.

This is an extremely difficult subject to discuss because it asks us to imagine that a completely honorable and perfectly legitimate service could be put to nefarious purposes. It is sad but it is as old as the art itself.



Oct 09, 2022 at 07:56 PM
eyal
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


RickPJ wrote:
The insistence that pictures of a legitimate sport (cheer) should be placed behind a password protected wall, is disturbing on a lot of levels.

I shoot high school and college sports. Cheer is one of them. It is an integral part of the game experience for a number of sports.

My editor(s) and publishers ultimately decide which of my pics go public. I do not have a website where I display my wares for two reasons. The first is that I am too lazy to do it and the other is that I am usually on someone else's dime. But
...Show more

Very good points.

I too will not share images that are either unflattering or with poses that may be construed as revealing or suggestive. That is technically true for both male and female though the former are in full football uniforms and the latter in cheer ones.

That being said, the uniforms our school uses are not revealing. No bare midriff. No deep neck lines.

The latest image to be 'collected' was one of six 14 year old JV cheerleaders standing mid-routine with nothing suggestive/revealing at all. My daughter was in that group. They weren't mid split jump or doing anything else untoward.

When I saw it was favorited by an unrecognized name (and I know each of the 6 girls depicted), the last thing I expected was to find everything else that had been favorited.

There was one image there of a girl mid-handstand that only had her buttock to mid-thighs displayed and with her legs spread out. Another two were captures of girls either boogie boarding or on surfboards heading into the ocean but with angles that revealed buttocks with barely-there thong bikinis. Another set were of girls mid-ballet poses with legs aimed high in the air. All teen/pre-teen.

Individually, I would consider these amateurish shots that had been posted en masse rather than carefully composed, captured and curated. Taken as a whole, the collection screamed out nefarious reasons for being pulled together and I really do think anyone would agree within seconds of seeing the various images chosen.

I still do not know why my image was among these. But finding this less than 24 hours after a prior collection was discovered made me angry and concerned enough to share this here.

I get that it's an ugly world but I guess my point to photographers here is to take a second and realize that these people are out there and that your images may be viewed in ways that were never intended. Maybe some who might dump a card worth of images including those described above will find this and think better of that.



Oct 09, 2022 at 08:24 PM
RickPJ
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


You make a good point about curating the photos we post. All too often we see online portfolios that are little more than emptying the card onto the website. Often there are photos posted that are, at the very least, cringe worthy.

I took a seminar with Scott Kelby many years ago in which he said that he had a good year if he added one or two shots to his portfolio. Now I am sure this was at least a little but of hyperbole on his part but I honor his point. We photographers who have been granted access to these wonderful events owe it to our subjects to post our best work. And by best work I mean not just the shots that tell our story or make us look good, but to refrain from posting the kind of things which make our subjects look bad for no editorial reason, and especially those of which you rightly warn.

I shoot a lot of rodeos and am fortunate to be allowed to shoot from inside of the arena. Everybody wants the wrecks. They want to see the cowboy dumped on his head. If I did not turn in these shots I would not be doing it for long. But. I believe that it is my responsibility to show my audience what a good ride looks like as well. It is interesting to consider that the PRCA photographers who are shooting beside me are looking to make the cowboys look good. That is, after all, what they probably want to buy to take home. Not a shot of their unfortunate crash. But if I am going to turn in some magnificent wrecks they sure won't be from the junior rodeo.




Oct 09, 2022 at 10:31 PM
eyal
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


RickPJ wrote:
You make a good point about curating the photos we post. All too often we see online portfolios that are little more than emptying the card onto the website. Often there are photos posted that are, at the very least, cringe worthy.

I took a seminar with Scott Kelby many years ago in which he said that he had a good year if he added one or two shots to his portfolio. Now I am sure this was at least a little but of hyperbole on his part but I honor his point. We photographers who have been granted access to
...Show more

Very well said Rick.

I have been shooting freshman, JV and varsity football this year with an a1 set at the highest frame rate. I have been coming home with 4,000 photos and typically get rid of 90% on the first pass then post on average 50-75.

When it comes to sideline cheer, I learned quickly to dismiss any that have even a hint of awkwardness in the pose and keep my teenage daughter in mind when asking myself if she would have wanted to see these.

I have a different role than the professional photographers on the sidelines in that I am seeking to capture these moments for these kids (and their parents) that is all too fleeting and like to believe that when they end up in one of my photos, they will hold onto those. I try to shoot as many kids as I can over the span of a game/season but have sought to stand out from prior sideline photographers who would simply dump JPGs SOOC.

I'm very grateful for all the comments to this post.

All I wanted was to alert others who may have been as naive as I was about the presence of another element looking at our photos. If that made anyone take an extra second to consider more about the subject of the photo, I'll take that as a good thing.



Oct 10, 2022 at 06:30 AM
Sauseschritt
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


Yeah, sounds like a teenager.


Oct 10, 2022 at 08:34 AM
JMGeorge
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


Exactly why I NEVER shoot cheerleader shots. Leave that up to the parents and students. As a middle age white male and a father, I can see how a parent would show extreme exception to anyone taking photos of my daughter without their express consent. The last thing I need is some irate parent jumping on to the field to kick my %$@# for taking photos of their daughter.

And by the way, why would you ever post ANY photos of young cheerleaders on a public site? There are sooo many alternatives where the link can be private and only accessed by those who have the link, AND a password. Leave Flickr for the landscapes and birds on a stick.

Stay on the sidelines and focus on the game.



Oct 12, 2022 at 12:10 PM
PureMichigan
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


I'll second that. I try to avoid hornet nests when I see them. If I know the parents and they ask me to take a few shots of their athlete during halftime performance at a football or basketball, sure I'll do it. But other than that ... why bother. Just not worth any/all of the issues cataloged above. I've got enough problems that I don't bring on myself -- I don't need to go looking for them.


Oct 12, 2022 at 12:27 PM
friscoron
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


I think it's probably good that you shared this info. You just never know.

That said, I never pay attention to people who favorite my pics on IG or FB or flickr. To be honest, I only use flickr to post pics here on FM, and since I hardly ever post pics here anymore, I'm just not on it. It doesn't make sense to me to share your pics on Flickr, which is set up for people to view your pics, and then be concerned that people are viewing them and favoriting them.

If you're really concerned, you should be on Pixieset where no one can see the galleries unless the link is sent. And then every time you post a new gallery, you send the link to the coach to send to the parents and athletes. Yes, Flickr is easier, but if you're concerned about safety, then you make decisions based on safety instead of ease.

And for the record, I take a LOT of pics of dancers esp, cheerleaders, gymnasts, and people will see in these pictures what they choose to see. A person can choose to make a picture sexual when there is nothing sexual about it. Open legs? That's part of dancing, cheering, and gymnastics. You want to make that sexual, esp if it's some 10 year old girl doing it, that's on you. (not you, the OP, but the "you", the viewer who thinks something so artistic, athletic, and innocent is something prurient.)



Oct 12, 2022 at 03:00 PM
PureMichigan
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Caution to all Flickr photographers capturing images of girls sports - found two likely pedophiles in past week


I think that's the problem. Someone - at some point - will likely read into it. It's the world we live in.Everyone needs to decide individually if they want to deal with that or avoid it. I guess. It comes down to your hassle/risk tolerance. Mine is set to very low/off when it comes to something like that. But to each his own. No wrong answer.


Oct 12, 2022 at 09:08 PM
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