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R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following f...

  
 
adamx12m
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


I tried an R6 for Friday night HS football tonight. I hate the flickering lights on this field so with anti-flicker control ON, I found out electronic shutter is not available. I tried both mechanical and ECFS w/anti-flicker enabled, so mechanical through the viewfinder while panning and tracking players IMO is just unusable with way too much stuttering. ECFS was a better but not by much, still no where near being real-time or close OVF. You almost have to judge the panning speed and hope you have everything in frame. Using center + 4 expanded, this worked well vs any of the expanded AF choices leaving it up to the camera to figure out which 25 moving players to focus on. Prior to the game shooting single subjects or small groups of people, all the AF modes worked well, that's easy stuff and expected AF to be spot on.

By half time I was ready to throw this camera in my bag, the stuttering was driving me crazy. But I kept going and while I got better predicting my panning speed, it was pretty clear I'd rather have the loud shutter clanking but consistent dslr results I've gotten for years over this camera. I'm used to the 1d bodies for the past 10 years, the ergo on the R6 is just not good with recessed buttons and condensed button layout it's awkward to grab and shoot one-handed. It's a good camera in so many ways but it won't be replacing my 1dx2's.

I tried to get the R3 last from CPS last week but lead time was 2+ weeks so bad planning on my part.



Oct 21, 2022 at 11:54 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Sounds similar to my experiences but I had the luxury at my night/indoor games to be working in pro stadiums where flicker wasn't a problem and I could use e-shutter.

I agree about the buttons on the R6. It's gotten colder here and the other day I was in the woods photographing fall colours while wearing light gloves. The flush buttons on the back of the camera activated by thumb, just simply were barely perceptible through the gloves. Specifically, the info and magnify buttons. Half the time I'd hit the wrong one of the two.

From what I recall of the R3, it's a much closer user experience to the 1D series. EVF stutter/lag also is much less. I don't recall if the R3 allows use of anti-flicker in e-shutter... but even if you had to use it in EFCS it would be a much better experience than the R5/R6.

Does make me wonder how much of the R3's goodness will trickle down to R5/R6 Mark II versions. Even the R7 has some aspects of the R3 not available in the R5/R6, which IMO makes it feel like Canon's intentionally leaving them behind without firmware updates to narrow feature/performance gaps. As I may have stated before, the age of the R5/R6 make me a bit reluctant to pull the trigger on them now as they'll likely be replaced sooner than later and probably will include feature improvements that I will want.



Oct 22, 2022 at 12:43 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Follow up for anyone interested: as I may have posted elsewhere, I decided to get the R6II after trying out all the current Canon mirrorless cameras.

I found the R6 was good enough for most of my work and I can probably live with the resulting compromises for areas where the 1D style body UI/UX is superior. But time will tell. I was reassured by the early R6II reviews, such as from DPR, that the newer AF capabilities in the R3 and R7 have also transitioned to it, plus apparently better rolling shutter control, was enough of a tipping point over the older R5 and R6. But I did considerably prefer the R5's EVF quality.

Apparently I will receive the R6II at some point Nov. 29th, or later in the week, and will have some sports events to try it at - youth hockey tournaments and some football.

Going back to the R6, I recently tried it at a youth hockey tournament for about 5000 frames. On the positive side, first frame AF acquisition and precision continued the trend I saw at the football games of being superior to my 1DXII. And because of my aging eyes and onset of presbyopia, it was wonderful to be able to review images on the EVF, rather than struggling to see the rear display on a DSLR.

On the negative side, EVF stutter was more annoying than at the football games for the following reasons: The games were played on a variety of rinks, ranging from very nicely LED illuminated at ISO 6400 1/640 f/4 to dismal mercury vapor at ISO 20000 1/500 f/4. The first problem was that for these tournaments I can't just shoot high fps bursts because I hand off the cards with minimal culling (there's no time) to the computer tech. It would clog up the on-site printing production pipeline and no one wants to wade through 20 nearly identical frames of their kid skating. So to control things better, and to benefit from anti-flicker control, I had to use EFCS in continuous H (not H+) to keep duplicate frames under control. And I generally tried to do single or two shots per kid whenever possible. The problem was that as soon as I lifted off the shutter release, the camera figured shooting was done and resulted in an extra ~quarter-second glitch/stutter, or whatever, of the EVF before the normal feed resumed. I found this extremely disruptive when trying to continue following the action, or quickly grabbing an additional frame, or moving to the next player (which I do extremely quickly because I only shoot one 10-minute period per game when there are 4 games playing simultaneously). I also found that the slight delay of the EVF feed meant that I had to anticipate peak action slightly sooner than I was used to after years of DSLR use. This might take some time for me to adjust.

I also had the habit of letting off the AF-ON button while just searching for action and this caused the EVF feed, particularly on the dark rinks, to drop to a really low, really un-smooth refresh rate, even though I had it set to 'smooth'. But as soon as I'd press AF-ON again, the EVF feed became smooth. Not deal breaking, but kind of annoying. Something else I hadn't previously experienced with the R6 was lockups. It happened 3 or 4 times that the live view feed froze in the EVF and the camera generally became unresponsive. I did notice though that it would complete writing to the card and I don't think I lost any images. But I never had time to just set it down and see if it would recover. Instead, each time I pulled the battery to reboot the camera because turning it off didn't seem to actually turn it off. I'm not really sure what was so different about shooting the hockey tournament vs. football that would cause the camera to lock up this many times in one day. Sure, the tournament was over the span of a ~10-hour day, whereas a football game is only about 3 hours. It was also colder in the rinks and maybe my use of the camera was more 'stop and go' on an ongoing basis... I used the same 200-400 lens but I have recently added the BG-R10 grip and also a couple Neewer LP-E6NH battery clones. I mixed those with original Canon batteries in the grip, in part because I'm not sure if I trust them yet.

Subject/head/face recognition of kids wearing hockey helmets generally worked. To reiterate my AF setup on the R6: I have AF-ON set to an AF point without subject detection/tracking. I have the * button set up for recognizing people. I start with AF-ON then switch to * when warranted. But I found that it took the camera about a half-second to recognize the subject was a person and to find their head. By this time I was usually moving on to the next shot. I don't think it really messed up or that I lost frames, but it just seemed slow having that additional slight delay before it recognized the subject was a person, plus that of moving my thumb from one button to the other. It meant I ended up just using a regular AF point (single point with four surrounding points) with AF-ON most of the time. Alternatively I might reconsider my use of AF-ON and move AF to the shutter release so that I can then override it with subject detection on the * button simultaneously. I was reluctant to use it in subject detection mode all the time because of some situations, like shooting the goalie with a lot of surrounding action, it would inevitably drift off the intended subject, or not pick it as the starting point. When there was just one kid predominantly in the composition, then subject detection was solid, when I used it.

I'm guessing based on my football experience with the R3 that it would probably be a much smoother EVF experience at hockey games, too. But at this point it's not in the budget...



Nov 26, 2022 at 05:47 PM
mfrank999
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
Follow up for anyone interested: as I may have posted elsewhere, I decided to get the R6II after trying out all the current Canon mirrorless cameras.

I found the R6 was good enough for most of my work and I can probably live with the resulting compromises for areas where the 1D style body UI/UX is superior. But time will tell. I was reassured by the early R6II reviews, such as from DPR, that the newer AF capabilities in the R3 and R7 have also transitioned to it, plus apparently better rolling shutter control, was enough of a tipping point
...Show more

I hope when you get the R6II you will post your findings on evf stutter/lag/ blackout on fast moving subjects.



Nov 29, 2022 at 10:58 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


mfrank999 wrote:
I hope when you get the R6II you will post your findings on evf stutter/lag/ blackout on fast moving subjects.


Yes, definitely!

Hopefully I can do so by the end of this week. In anticipation, I'm hoping that even though the same EVF panel appears to be recycled in the R6II, that it will have a more powerful processor that has the muscle to reduce, or at least smooth out, the EVF stutter and glitches I'm currently experiencing with the R6...



Nov 29, 2022 at 02:26 PM
mfrank999
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
Yes, definitely!

Hopefully I can do so by the end of this week. In anticipation, I'm hoping that even though the same EVF panel appears to be recycled in the R6II, that it will have a more powerful processor that has the muscle to reduce, or at least smooth out, the EVF stutter and glitches I'm currently experiencing with the R6...


I shoot mainly Birds, and the flight shots at time can be a challenge especially with a foliage background. Hopefully they have improved on it.



Nov 30, 2022 at 05:55 AM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


I came across this chart from this very informative video.











Nov 30, 2022 at 08:10 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


IIRC that video talks more about rolling shutter and/or how IBIS can also introduce rolling shutter artifacts.

What I mean by stutter and glitches is lagginess in the live view feed that reduces its smoothness and makes it more difficult to follow fast moving subjects while panning. In particular my experience with the R6 has indicated that the worst 'glitch' happens right after lifting off the shutter release. The camera sort of 'resets' the live feed. The result is a noticeable 'jump' in the EVF feed (IBIS/IS off) that I have found particularly disruptive when either wanting to take another shot, or quickly move to another subject.

This was less of a problem with how I shoot football where I usually do sustained bursts in e-shutter at 20fps. I'll just keep shooting until the action is over. With youth hockey I don't have such a luxury and must be extremely selective. Therefore a lot more on and off the shutter release and a lot more instances where the EVF feed is jumpy. During the hockey tournament, the first time I have used mirrorless for one, the R6 became virtually unresponsive maybe 3-4 times. The EVF feed essentially froze, but I noticed it would update one frame every few seconds. It gave me the impression something in the camera was overloading, or blocking the flow of data. Images would finish writing to the card in the normal amount of time, so it seemed it was more a problem with the live view feed. I had to pull the battery to effectively reset the camera each time.

It appears the R6 doesn't save error codes for later reference, that said, the above lock up situations never generated error codes.



Nov 30, 2022 at 10:13 AM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


For shutter shock it was recommend to shoot in ES or first curtain sync. When I sent my R5 in for a check up the tech told me that IS and IBIS contradict each other no the R5 and 6. I never asked for details. Others have noticed a jitter when starting. It was worse before and Canon released a FW update to correct it.




Nov 30, 2022 at 03:29 PM
mfrank999
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
IIRC that video talks more about rolling shutter and/or how IBIS can also introduce rolling shutter artifacts.

What I mean by stutter and glitches is lagginess in the live view feed that reduces its smoothness and makes it more difficult to follow fast moving subjects while panning. In particular my experience with the R6 has indicated that the worst 'glitch' happens right after lifting off the shutter release. The camera sort of 'resets' the live feed. The result is a noticeable 'jump' in the EVF feed (IBIS/IS off) that I have found particularly disruptive when either wanting to take another shot,
...Show more

My problem is a little different. While holding down the shutter in electronic shutter on a fast flying bird, the bird seems to keep getting closer to the right side of the frame ( bird flying left to right} as I continue to shoot. I feel that the shots are not quite real time in the evf.



Dec 01, 2022 at 06:34 AM
 


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Zenon Char
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
IIRC that video talks more about rolling shutter and/or how IBIS can also introduce rolling shutter artifacts.

What I mean by stutter and glitches is lagginess in the live view feed that reduces its smoothness and makes it more difficult to follow fast moving subjects while panning. In particular my experience with the R6 has indicated that the worst 'glitch' happens right after lifting off the shutter release. The camera sort of 'resets' the live feed. The result is a noticeable 'jump' in the EVF feed (IBIS/IS off) that I have found particularly disruptive when either wanting to take another shot,
...Show more

I did forget to say based on that video I was wondering if the IBIS moving is causing something beside unintended rolling shutter. I get ghosting now and then. More than I did with my DSLRís.



Dec 01, 2022 at 09:51 AM
Joe Winn
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Trying my R6II out at basketball tonight and the EVF non-smoothness during shooting multiple frames exists. Definitely hard going from OVF cameras to a mildly laggy EVF when shooting fast action in EFCS. Shooting in ES it is super smooth but the frames pile up quickly

I guess itís just the price of admission. Everything is in focus but definitely harder to follow during sequences.



Dec 02, 2022 at 06:21 PM
garyvot
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Joe Winn wrote:
Shooting in ES it is super smooth but the frames pile up quickly


Yeah. Canon really should have given us a 10fps low mode, rather than 5, I think. Perhaps a firmware update could add a way to customize this. (Doubtful, given Canon.)



Dec 02, 2022 at 07:14 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Joe Winn wrote:
Trying my R6II out at basketball tonight and the EVF non-smoothness during shooting multiple frames exists. Definitely hard going from OVF cameras to a mildly laggy EVF when shooting fast action in EFCS. Shooting in ES it is super smooth but the frames pile up quickly

I guess itís just the price of admission. Everything is in focus but definitely harder to follow during sequences.


Yes, this is what I'm seeing with the R6II. It's not quite as nice as the R3 in e-shutter, but it's better (smoother) than the mechanical shutter modes. And in turn, its EVF feed in the mechanical shutter modes is somewhat better than my experience with the R6. So I'm happy about that.

The hockey tournament I shot today was all under mercury vapor lighting (wish they would just bite the bullet and upgrade to quality LED lighting) and there was too obvious color banding in e-shutter, so had to use EFCS with anti-flicker. I didn't have time to futz around with the new high frequency anti-flicker option, which potentially could have been different for each of the four rinks I covered.

You also have to get used to the fact that the EVF image is a fraction of a second behind what's actually happening in front of you, so if you want to catch peak action, you have to adjust your timing to shoot earlier than you would with a responsive DSLR such as a 1D series. The easy solution is to fall back to 40fps, but as you mentioned, it generates a lot more images to sift through. But it's not something I could do for the hockey tournament where I have to be very selective with my shooting.

I'm also curious about the pre-capture feature, which could be useful for my football work.



Dec 02, 2022 at 08:30 PM
Joe Winn
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Why canít they have ES high, mid and low fps modes. That would be ideal.


Dec 02, 2022 at 09:11 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Joe Winn wrote:
Why canít they have ES high, mid and low fps modes. That would be ideal.


The R6II does have this option for e-shutter. 40, 20 and 5. What's missing is a more useful 10fps. Just change the drive mode to access these. H+ is 40fps, H is 20 and continuous low is 5.



Dec 02, 2022 at 09:41 PM
arbitrage
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


mfrank999 wrote:
My problem is a little different. While holding down the shutter in electronic shutter on a fast flying bird, the bird seems to keep getting closer to the right side of the frame ( bird flying left to right} as I continue to shoot. I feel that the shots are not quite real time in the evf.


The frames are not even close to real time in the EVF in ES on any of the Canon R series. Even the R3 didn't seem to be a true live image to me. FWIW I don't think the A1 nor Z9 were really providing a fully real time image either....maybe the Z9 did with its dual stream but still didn't seem perfect to me with the naked eye.

The bird is moving more towards the right because you aren't seeing things live and you are lagging in panning. You can try and compensate for that with practice.



Dec 03, 2022 at 08:07 AM
mfrank999
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


arbitrage wrote:
The frames are not even close to real time in the EVF in ES on any of the Canon R series. Even the R3 didn't seem to be a true live image to me. FWIW I don't think the A1 nor Z9 were really providing a fully real time image either....maybe the Z9 did with its dual stream but still didn't seem perfect to me with the naked eye.

The bird is moving more towards the right because you aren't seeing things live and you are lagging in panning. You can try and compensate for that with practice.


I originally had the A9. Was that considerably closer to real time than my R6?



Dec 03, 2022 at 12:15 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


mfrank999 wrote:
My problem is a little different. While holding down the shutter in electronic shutter on a fast flying bird, the bird seems to keep getting closer to the right side of the frame ( bird flying left to right} as I continue to shoot. I feel that the shots are not quite real time in the evf.


Actually that is exactly what got me to start this thread. I shot a couple football games with the R3 and it generally worked really well. Then I borrowed an R6 and had a much worse experience when trying to pan with football players moving across the frame. It felt like I was falling behind as the sequence progressed, so I'd try to catch up and inevitably overshoot when they suddenly changed direction. So no, the EVF feed is not real time (none are), but some cameras are better/faster than others.

arbitrage wrote:
The frames are not even close to real time in the EVF in ES on any of the Canon R series. Even the R3 didn't seem to be a true live image to me. FWIW I don't think the A1 nor Z9 were really providing a fully real time image either....maybe the Z9 did with its dual stream but still didn't seem perfect to me with the naked eye.

The bird is moving more towards the right because you aren't seeing things live and you are lagging in panning. You can try and compensate for that with practice.

mfrank999 wrote:
I originally had the A9. Was that considerably closer to real time than my R6?


I briefly used an a9 back in 2017 while the cameras were still in preproduction and shot some football with it. I didn't really have any problems tracking subjects with either the 70-200 or 100-400 provided with it. So that was 5 years ago already. When I used the R3 for football this September, it was a similar experience. Of the Canon FF mirrorless, the R6 was my least favorite EVF experience. Both it and the R5 lag more than the R3, but the R6's EVF also has lower dynamic range, and possibly lower maximum brightness, resulting in a harsher looking EVF feed in high contrast lighting, where with an OVF your eyes would compensate and let you see into deep shadows. But what did I end up buying? The R6II with the same crummy EVF panel!

I have various reasons for selecting the R6II that I won't dive into here. So far I've only shot a hockey tournament with it, for a total of about 5000 frames. In respect to the EVF experience alone, it definitely still lags real-time but in e-shutter it is somewhat smoother than the R6. That said, I couldn't shoot in e-shutter during the tournament for the reasons I explained above. That will have to wait for a football game next weekend where I will then have a much better idea of how it fares against the R6. In EFCS, there's obviously still blackout because of the mechanical shutter, but the R6II resumes the live feed better than the R6. It's much less jumpy after each exposure and it was easier to keep on top of the action than what I experienced with the R6 a week earlier. It's not ideal, meaning there is still a lot of room for improvement, but it's more usable and less annoying (IMO) than the R6's EVF.



Dec 03, 2022 at 09:06 PM
mfrank999
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
Actually that is exactly what got me to start this thread. I shot a couple football games with the R3 and it generally worked really well. Then I borrowed an R6 and had a much worse experience when trying to pan with football players moving across the frame. It felt like I was falling behind as the sequence progressed, so I'd try to catch up and inevitably overshoot when they suddenly changed direction. So no, the EVF feed is not real time (none are), but some cameras are better/faster than others.


I briefly used an a9 back in 2017 while the
...Show more



Dec 04, 2022 at 09:00 AM
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