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Archive 2022 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light

  
 
osv2
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


RoamingScott wrote:
OP was out to prove that the Z9 was better than the Z6,


the exif on the o.p. photo says that it was shot with a z9? i didn't see a z6 anywhere.

RoamingScott wrote:
shot a runway show with poor lighting at f/6.3 with the wrong lens


sjms immediately followed up the o.p. post with photos at high isos, which was the same point that the o.p. was trying to make.

RoamingScott wrote:
abused the file in post


o.p. definitely has a faulty workflow prblem, but that's hardly a mortal sin.

i think that he's also a nikon owner with decades of runway model shooting experience going back into the '80's.



Oct 02, 2022 at 10:14 PM
Paul_K
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


My personal obeservations seem to have attracted quite a bit of reactions

RoamingScott wrote:
Why not use the right lens for the job, instead of being forced to introduce a bunch of splotchy color noise to your "saved" photo?
Might be the res you linked, but nothing looks in focus either.

You apparently miss the point of a torture test
When done with a perfect lens and under ideal conditions, it completely would fail to show what a camera is capable doing under adverse conditions. A bit liike testing the off road capacities of a Landrover Defender by taking it on a school drive or a trip to the shopping mall. A camera like the Z9, D6, 1DX etc wil always perform and deliver at the highest level under those conditins and anybody, even an enthousiast amateur should be able to come back with good results

As for the saved' picture, sure, the IQ isn't perfect,
But then again the IQ was already compromisd due to the bad lighting conditions, and following simple market demands (years of shooting catwalk have taught me designers, magazines press etc. 99% of the timer don't want dark images barely showing the creations) inevitable heavy lifting of the shadows in post afterwards.
That said, having in the past shot runway on due to the time limited high ISO capacity pushed film, I find it still much better then eg Tri-X or TMax 3200 pushed to IS0 800 or push processed Scitch 3M 1000M or 640T slide

The perception of sharpness / focus does suffer indeed from the low res of the image posted.
The Z9 actually impressed me with how sharp the (processed) images actually were when looked in at 100% (a level of pixelpeeping I always stayed far away from even with my D850 and Z7II)

1bwana1 wrote:
I don't know what to say the reason the focus was missed, but yes it looks a bit soft.
.

See above

pe1125 wrote:
I took the OP to mean he purposely chose a slower lens in bad light to disprove another thread's claim that the Z9 was lousy in poor light.

Correct, a 2.8 70-200, even the 2012 VRII version I still use woUld have made the job far too easy

1bwana1 wrote:
I am not sure what this ultimately says about the Z9 sensor in low light.

IMO it shows it holds up quite well, again IMO even better then eg my 2018 Z6 even / especially with severally challenged bad / low lighting, funky WB lighting mix and relatively slow AF (due to a not 'ideal' lens)

1bwana1 wrote:
For sure exposure was missed with, under exposure by multiple stops. The file was then pushed in post to lighten it up significantly. At 3200 ISO I am not sure what sensor with the resolution of the Z9 would hold up without noise. If we really want to see how well the Z9 can perform in low light, we should look at files that hit exposure right so they don't need rough handling in post that produces noise and color artifacts.
At this point I am inclined to give the Z9 sensor the benefit of the doubt.


As said before the intent of this torture test was to see how the Z9 would hold up under adverse conditions, challenged IQ, high ISO and AF
In this case slow lens, bad / low light level, no evenly lit 'catwalk' , no stage lighting, mixed WB / color : 3400K tungsten, RGB LED, 5400K direct day light coming from large windows, high contrast from brightly lit vs deep shadow with indirect low daylight fill parts
If conditions were studio like, with a perfect evenly lit catwalk, consistent one color temperature / WB , using a 'typicasl' perfect fast (both AF and aperture) lens like eg the Z 2.8 70-200mm VR S, there would be no challenge, and anybody could / should be able to come away with usable pretty much perfect shots

sjms wrote:
98% of the issue in the second image which is a rework of the first was overly ambitious post processing.


See above

andrewd01 wrote:
The exposure in the first image was fine IMO. The model was spotlighted which suits the image. Boosting the exposure of the background makes the image less interesting and adds a bunch of artefcats.


Theoretically nice observation on the light, but ignoring the actual situation.
Agai, said stated right fom the start, there was no stage lighting, let alone a spotlight.
Light was a mix of open shadow indirect fill in, a few overhead chandelier with LED lights, and in certain spots direct light coming from large windows. With this picture the latter was the case, so no spot.
The big differcent in light level between the direct window light and shadow areas in the rest of the venue causing the spot like high exposed / deep shadow contrast, forcing heavy shadow lifting for commercially usable results

The 'original' lighting may seem great from an 'artistic' PoV.
One of the designers actually did present his collection in a more theatrical /dramatic way, and there using the contrast, shadows and spot like lighting did work well https://pbase.com/paul_k/20221001_fashionweek_dh_studio_hiem

But as I said before, for the image shown, from a more feminine and 'gentle' (colors, tulle, low profile presentation by he models) collection, and can be seen eg in the images of catwalk shows in the usual magazines, designers, fashion, press etc absolutely don't have a taste for that kind of artistry and want images that show the clothes as they are, even if not always of the highest technical level, including IQ, noise or even sharpness

Hopes this somerhow helps smooth out some of the most urgent reactions

Edited on Oct 03, 2022 at 09:57 AM · View previous versions



Oct 03, 2022 at 07:39 AM
sjms
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


regretfully, for me, not really.

Edited on Oct 03, 2022 at 08:54 AM · View previous versions



Oct 03, 2022 at 08:18 AM
JadedWriter
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


And this is why I try not to go anywhere without my 50 1.2 and 105 1.4 as an event photographer. If I need extra light gathering for the dog poop events that I shoot to make things actually look good I'm going to use those lenses.


Oct 03, 2022 at 08:43 AM
sjms
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


yeah, some feel that way. that depends on the environment you want/need to portray.




  NIKON D4    24.0-120.0 mm f/4.0 lens    24mm    f/8.0    1/80s    20318 ISO    -0.7 EV  






  NIKON D3    36mm    f/8.0    1/80s    2800 ISO    0.0 EV  






  NIKON D4    24.0-120.0 mm f/4.0 lens    24mm    f/5.6    1/250s    20318 ISO    0.0 EV  




Oct 03, 2022 at 09:04 AM
JadedWriter
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


I do event/photojournalism work A LOT. There's nothing in that background I give remote crap about.
sjms wrote:
yeah, some feel that way. that depends on the environment you want/need to portray.





Oct 03, 2022 at 09:59 AM
sjms
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


well, you see thats the difference between what and when you know whats going on and the needs of who you are employed by.




Oct 03, 2022 at 10:10 AM
JadedWriter
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


I have been obliterating backgrounds for years, my job don't care.
sjms wrote:
well, you see thats the difference between what and when you know whats going on and the needs of who you are employed by.






Oct 03, 2022 at 10:11 AM
sjms
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


oh, i am very aware of that. as i said needs and wants of who you work for. the building blocks for a story. everyone has their own "style" too.


Oct 03, 2022 at 10:15 AM
JadedWriter
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


This is also very true.
sjms wrote:
oh, i am very aware of that. as i said needs and wants of who you work for. the building blocks for a story. everyone has their own "style" too.





Oct 03, 2022 at 10:27 AM
sjms
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


note his original image. the women sitting in the background looking through the entrance way after the passing of the model. that gives a directional flow and a presence, intentional or not, at least to me. there are a few things going on there.


Oct 03, 2022 at 10:32 AM
Lightsearcher
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


The Z9 did a fine job here, the photographer made a few mistakes but the biggest one is the ugly post processing, as a result the image is noisy, full of artifacts and oversaturated.

I am not sure what you want to test or what is the point of it.



Oct 03, 2022 at 12:50 PM
kimballistic
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


Paul_K wrote:
https://pbase.com/paul_k/20221001_fashionweek_dh_studio_hiem


Respectfully, these all look like the first processed photo you posted. To my eye the colors are so cooked they no longer look real. The contrast and saturation seem to be cranked. The skin tones do not look natural IMHO. If that's your intentional style that you've carefully and thoughtfully settled on, more power to you.

But it's hard to accept any conclusions about the Z9 from such over-processed and low-resolution images. The style and image quality of these samples as you've presented them have, in my opinion, an unfortunate air of "2005 digital point and shoot set to a creative effect." Again, if that's your thing, go for it. A lot of people intentionally create a "retro" look, and these are definitely retro. I'd be curious to hear more. And of course, in the end, it's only your opinion that matters.



Oct 03, 2022 at 09:10 PM
Paul_K
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


Epilogue (kind of )

Following the avalanche of remarks / critique I was curious what my collegue photographers eventually would come up with after shooting the same catwalk show

So this is what the organisation of The Fashionweek The Hague has published as its official images of that show
https://thefashionweek.nl/fanny-de-ruyter-at-the-fashionweek/
vs
https://pbase.com/paul_k/20221001_fashionweek_the_hague__fanny_de_ruijter_

https://thefashionweek.nl/irina-krutasova-at-the-fashionweek/
vs
https://pbase.com/paul_k/20221001_fashionweek_the_hague_irina_krutasova

https://thefashionweek.nl/studio-hiem-at-the-fashion-week/
vs
https://pbase.com/paul_k/20221001_fashionweek_dh_studio_hiem

Call me a stubborn old fool, but I still prefer my (sharper, better color even if perhaps somewhat over saturated, and less LED purple) images



Oct 08, 2022 at 07:02 AM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


And call me some rando on the internet who doesn't shoot catwalks, but if I had any interest in looking at what was worn at these shows, I'd much rather see this:

https://thefashionweek.nl/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/2022.10.01_TFW22_PASARELLA_STUDIO-HIEM-31-scaled.jpg


than this:

https://a4.pbase.com/g12/20/670620/2/173024226.cNg5i3Dg.jpg


I'd assume (maybe foolishly) that the point of documenting a catwalk would be to show the designs as close to their actual color as possible. Your style tends to crush shadows and low light detail, made worse by your admitted lens choice. There's also something about the way you handled their skin that makes them look sweaty, when in the other set they don't at all. I guess it's more about which shots are flattering to the clothes and the models. And you keep saying sharp, but...

What do I know, though. I'm just a simple landscape photo farmer. I wouldn’t lend much credence to a catwalk photographer’s opinion of my work, so take my opinion for what it’s worth…absolutely nothing.



Oct 08, 2022 at 07:42 AM
Charles Loy
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


seeing the purple splotches on the floor and wall is very exciting - not. OP did not make his point is this post


Oct 08, 2022 at 08:39 AM
Paul_K
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


RoamingScott wrote:

And call me some rando on the internet who doesn't shoot catwalks, but if I had any interest in looking at what was worn at these shows, I'd much rather see this:
https://thefashionweek.nl/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/2022.10.01_TFW22_PASARELLA_STUDIO-HIEM-31-scaled.jpg

than this:
https://a4.pbase.com/g12/20/670620/2/173024226.cNg5i3Dg.jpg


I'd assume (maybe foolishly) that the point of documenting a catwalk would be to show the designs as close to their actual color as possible. Your style tends to crush shadows and low light detail, made worse by your admitted lens choice. There's also something about the way you handled their skin that makes them look sweaty, when in the other set they don't at all. I guess
...Show more

Rather to just dissmissing your opinion as absolutely nothing from a rando on the internet, I rather react better than rebuke, considering you by your own admission are a simple landscape photographer
(just as I woud stay far away from criticizing landscape pictures having no skill or expertise on that subject either)

I agree that that the point of documenting a catwalk would be to show the designs as close to their actual color as possible, or, as in this case, as close as possible as the technical conditions allow

Just like the other designers in the show, tha designer reflected in his collection the bright color palette predicted for spring / summer 202 eg described in Forbes Magazine
https://www.forbes.com/sites/josephdeacetis/2021/10/12/new-york-fashion-week-the-best-color-trends-for-springsummer-2022/?sh=3d80055241c0
displayed in the Spring Summer 2022 collections
https://www.google.com/search?q=fashion+week+spring+summer+2022&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjshMSCi9H6AhUFxwIHHbraDBYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAw&biw=1322&bih=745&dpr=2
and displayed this award seasonon the red carpet
https://www.google.com/search?q=red+carpet+color+dreses2022&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwizg4Wwi9H6AhUhnv0HHWGcCrEQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=red+carpet+color+dreses2022&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoHCAAQgAQQGFC-DFjKKmDBQGgAcAB4AIABNogBmgSSAQIxM5gBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=HapBY_OAIaG89u8P4biqiAs&bih=745&biw=1322&client=firefox-b-d&hl=e

This is o.a. visible in the unprocessed SOOC JPG
https://a4.pbase.com/g12/20/670620/2/173044477.RGLNNyN3.jpg
of the image I posted where eg the scarf the model is wearing is a near neon mint green, which i dutifully reproduced, even if a tad saturated in post
That type of bright colors are similarly used in the rest of his collection, as in that of the other designers at the show

In the image you say you prefer, the green in the scarf however has turned near dirty grey white, with the rest of the colors dwindling into a thrift store like murky/muddy watercolor version
IMO this stands far from ‘ to show the designs as close to their actual color as possible’
There are however understandable reasons that have caused the kind of color degradation in that and the other images shown on the other site

To begin with, the mixed lighting (direct daylight, idirect - open shadow - daylight, 3400 Tungsten and white RGB ´resulting in the purple color cast - LED light ) made it imposible to find / use a standard WB seting.
that somehow could have resulted in the actual colors
With the very likely chosen ‘standard’ artificial light WB setting at 3400K, the otherwise yellow color cast has been avoided, still leaving the purple one
Due to trying to diminish that, filtering has been tweaked to lower that, in the proces also affecting the saturation of the other colors, and with the contrast and saturation also having been lowered, resulting in the murky colors

Also, most likely JPG rather then RAW files were used, a pretty logical choice for a Canon shooter since in ideal conditions SOOC Canon JPG’s are, as I have experienced working years alongside Canon shooters,
most of the time superior over Nikon JPG’s
Which allows batch processing and speedy presentation, ideal for sports and journalism
But under the aforementioned challenging light conditions IMO rather a disadvantage lacking tweaking space

While lifting the shadows and tweaking the colors and contras the degree I did may have given ‘unacceptable’ color artifacts, I do think the result is closer to the original colors of the clothes compared to the murky
water colors in the other image

The sweatiness of the model is simply a real world issue / problem (I assume you don’t mean the gold foil on the models forehead)
Models do sweat a lot during a show, due to a combination of nerves, anxiety, hard work ( speedily walking over the catwalk) etc., and I think it’s a compliment to the Z9 sensor that even under the light conditions mentioned that is reproduced
Of course the lowering of contrast and saturation, together with slight under exposure in the other image doesn’t help to show that kind of detail there

As far as the sharpness is concerned, funny you keep pointing at that looking at my, based on a 198 KB, recompressed for use on the FM board, file, when the images on the other site are not exactly sharp either

Charles Loy wrote:
seeing the purple splotches on the floor and wall is very exciting - not. OP did not make his point is this post


As described above, fully agree on the purple splotches, not exiting, although inevitable with RBG based white lED lighting

Don’t fully understand which point I didn’t make though
My original post was in reaction to several messages on a other side claiming that a Z9 was not fit for showing catwalk, even under what IMO seems pretty standard stage light
I think I have illustrated that under far worse circumstances, even when using a ‘wrong’ lens’ and under exposing, Nikon Z9 files still do deliver, even if due to challenging conditions, not standard, ‘colored between the lines’ results.



Oct 08, 2022 at 02:03 PM
kimballistic
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


Do you edit on your 10 year old, pre-retina, 2012 Macbook Pro screen, or do you use an external display? I'm wondering if the age of your computer equipment is a factor here. The colors in your SOOC jpg are already quite suitably saturated on my 2021 16" Macbook Pro.


Oct 08, 2022 at 04:36 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Z9, catwalk and really bad light


My thought exactly, the SOOC image is the better image to my eye.

kimballistic wrote:
Do you edit on your 10 year old, pre-retina, 2012 Macbook Pro screen, or do you use an external display? I'm wondering if the age of your computer equipment is a factor here. The colors in your SOOC jpg are already quite suitably saturated on my 2021 16" Macbook Pro.




Oct 08, 2022 at 05:13 PM
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