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Archive 2022 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)

  
 
EB-1
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


Scott Stoness wrote:
I am not surprised. The M1 MBP likely has a faster ssd than what you would get with Sabrent/TB3 or the T7 because they are limited by 40gbs (4,000 mb/s). I tested (black Magic) the ssd on the older MBP and it was above ( about 3500) what I could get on my wd black in the Orico tb3 (2700).

The reason that you might need ( ) the Sabrent is if your mbp ssd is too small or you want a fast portable. Either it does not fit or as you get close to full it slows down.
...Show more

The T7 only reaches 1000MB/sec. (USB 3.2 gen 2).

EBH



Nov 07, 2022 at 08:55 PM
Chris Dees
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


The MBP is USB 3.2 gen 2 as well. You need a TB3(4 enclosure for faster speeds.

EB-1 wrote:
The T7 only reaches 1000MB/sec. (USB 3.2 gen 2).

EBH




Nov 08, 2022 at 03:45 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


I bought a Sabrent dual that is rated at 1500mb/s single and 2500mb/s raid 0. It has yet to arrive.
I also bought a usb4 to USB3 splitter. It also has not arrived as yet.

In anticipation of raid 0 stripped, I bought a Kingston NV2 1TB to go with the NV1 1TB. In addition I was experimenting with the WD770 1TB - to see which ones I should stripe together. I had some surprising results. see below.
The WD throttled at about 63GB (whether by heat or cache) I don't know.
The NV2 throttled at 160GB (whether by heat or cache) I don't know.
The NV1 did not throttle at all up to 200gb.
This is surprising because NV1 is QLC. NV2 is TLC. WD Black is TLC. They should throttle at higher gb than NV1.

So my conclusions were:

WD 770 1tb Fastest to 62GB - 1600W / 2220 R then drops to 200W/2100R - - best working disk? Depends on file size good to 62gb
Kingston NV1 1tb- Fastest 200GB 1100W / 1300 R — did not throttle - best storage disk on its own
Kingston NV2 1tb- Fastest 100GB 1100W/ 2200 R - best read disk ? Depends on file size good to 160GB
[mbp test ssd internal disk is ~2500W/ 2500 R - so WD and NV2 write could be limited by read from MB1]
[the above could be a thermal affected outcome - eg if better cooling WD might do better ?]

I found a good source https://www.techpowerup.com/review/kingston-nv2-1-tb-m-2-nvme-ssd/6.html that lists
NV1 as 243gb cache and averaging 139mb/s for 1TB write
NV2 as 88gb cache and averaging 619mb/s for 1TB write
WDB as 325gb cache and averaging 630mb/s for 1TB write
Which at first blush seems inconsistent however my NV2 /NV1was running at 1/2 its rated speed so maybe it was clearing the buffer and thus 160gb to full. And the NV1 did not fill its cache so it did the best.

All of this suggests for me -

Raid 0 for Kingstons - should achieve 2500 W/ 2500 R until perhaps 350mb - then slowing
Direct WD 770 for working disk in my existing Orico enclosure
[more expensive nvme does not necessarily result in faster depending on the size of the files you are copying.]

And what it might suggest for you:
The learning for you might be - QLC vs TLC - which is better depends more on design than TLC vs QLC. eg for storage of 200gb files the NV1 was best. And for fast copy and use - eg 8k less than 63gb, the WD black (TLC) was best. But if you use even bigger files NV2 would be better. Which means its unpredictable. You have to test it to know which will perform best for your specific use.

I will let you know what happens when I raid them.







Dec 01, 2022 at 07:43 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


Got my Sabrent Dual that is supposed to be rated at 1500 single or 2500 raid zero.

My Kingston 1TB NV1 got 1050W/1300Read alone
My Kingston 1TB NV2 got 1100W/1540Read alone

Striped and Raided it got
1640 Write and 2150 Read [fell short of 2500]
throttled down at 310gb to much more up and down to achieve 508W/2150Read for 500gb

Is it worth it to raid striped - ? Not sure 1640 vs 1050 for less reliability. Throttles down on big write.

But for comparison - to test my reliability I copied 770gb from 8tb 7200 HDD to 2TB raid zero - it pinned it at about 100MB/s so even when cheap nvme's are going slow they are 3-4 times faster than HDD.

I also tested an old Samsung 1tb sata ssd and it got about 400mb/s write and read on usb 3.1 - without any throttling. Which suggests cheap nvme are great for video (1600 w/ 2200 r) but not for big storage unless you buy not inexpensive nvme. Unfortunately data ssd are pretty expensive as well.

Edited on Dec 07, 2022 at 10:33 AM · View previous versions



Dec 05, 2022 at 02:24 AM
Stereodude
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


eyal wrote:
I now have my eyes on this 8 TB piece of awesomeness but can't seem to find an external enclosure that would do it justice

Western Digital Ultrastar DC SN200 HUSMR7676BDP3Y1 7.68TB PCIe Gen 3.0 x4 NVMe U.2 2.5in Enterprise Solid State Drive for $430

https://serverpartdeals.com/collections/solid-state-drives/products/western-digital-ultrastar-dc-sn200-husmr7676bdp3y1-0ts1357-7-68tb-pcie-gen-3-0-x4-4gb-s-2-5-solid-state-drive


One potentially important point. Many of these enterprise drives aren't all that fast if you're only writing a single file at a time. The really high data rates they quote are for a higher queue depth than one. They don't bother tuning the firmware for what would be an unusual workload for an enterprise drive. Consumer drives tend to be much faster with a queue depth of 1.



Dec 05, 2022 at 02:42 PM
SpecFoto
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


Scott, I have a 2019 27” iMac and about 6 months ago I purchased a Samsung 2TB 980 Pro NVME and put it in a Acasis TB3/USB4 enclosure. I made it the start up drive, as the internal 512GB drive was just too limiting. It is just terrific and my speed are slightly faster than the internal SSD at W/2,500 R/2,600 +/-. Now I can have my full Lightroom lr.cat and lr.data files on the start-up drive, which makes Lightroom operate much quicker. Have been using 2 RAID 16TB USB-C enclosures (2x8THDD) for my LR files and backup, with a 2nd backup written to individual HDD. About 320MB/s was the speed of the external enclosures with RAID 0.

I too wanted NVME drives as a solution to faster speeds, but the iMac having only 2 TB3 ports is an issue as you know and my 2nd 27” monitor is using the 1 free TB3 ports. So I got an OWC TB4 Hub that has 3 TB ports and a 10GB/s USB A port and it has worked well for 6 months, it does not have a fan so is quiet and never seems warm to the touch. It operates at about 95% of the iMac R/W speed. My 2nd monitor is hooked up and I have 2 free TB ports available for a RAID system.

For the NVME enclosure I looked at the OWC Express 4M2 but it had 3 issues. The biggest was that it only uses 1 controller that is split between the 4 drives, thus the single speed of only 700MB/s, that you had to buy their software (at added cost) to make it operate at the fastest RAID speeds, and a lot of people complained about the constant single speed fan noise. Other companies are developing these multi NVME enclosures, but none on the market right now seem to have a good, fast solution and be willing to sell an enclosure only that can be set up by using Disk Utility.

So I decided to wait a bit, as I was traveling overseas for 2 months this summer and I wanted to have a full backup of all my files with me (12TB), just in case. My solution was to get 3 of the SanDisk Extreme V2 4TB SSD’s. I read about doubling these up in pairs using Apple Disk Utility to make the RAID 0 8TB setup using 2 SSD’s and 2 cables, their R/W speed just about doubles from 900MB/s +/- single SSD to 1,800/MB/s +/- in RAID 0 for the pair. Perfect for my 14” MBP M1 Pro with it’s 3 TB4 ports, I took 1 RAID set at 8TB and a single one at 4TB that had all my data with me. Being small, compact, weather/drop resistant, and not requiring an additional power supply or a large enclosure, they are the perfect solution for mobile use and storage. Liked it so much that when I got home I bought a 4th Extreme V2 4TB and now have 2 RAID 0 sets at 8TB each that work instantly and are fast without having an external enclosure to deal with. Depending upon what data I want to access, it is so easy to just swap out the 2nd 8TB RAID set with the TB4 Hub. Down the road and once there are better choices for multi NVME enclosures out there I will get one, but in the meantime I am using the SanDisks both at home and on the road to obtain excellent speeds. And they have a 5 year warranty though Western Digital, which I had to use on a non working 5TB 2.5” sata drive recently, and the replacement service was excellent.



Dec 15, 2022 at 02:06 PM
amv8
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


SpecFoto wrote:
...So I decided to wait a bit, as I was traveling overseas for 2 months this summer and I wanted to have a full backup of all my files with me (12TB), just in case. My solution was to get 3 of the SanDisk Extreme V2 4TB SSD’s. I read about doubling these up in pairs using Apple Disk Utility to make the RAID 0 8TB setup using 2 SSD’s and 2 cables, their R/W speed just about doubles from 900MB/s +/- single SSD to 1,800/MB/s +/- in RAID 0 for the pair. Perfect for my 14” MBP M1 Pro
...Show more

This is helpful. I've been using these small external SSDs for my photos and LR catalog for about 3 years now. Super convenient when switching between my MBP when traveling and the Studio when at home. My LR catalog and recent years photos are on a Samsung X5 2TB which is TB3 and the rest on a 4TB Sandisk Extreme V2. The Samsung X5 is filling up and it also looks like the X5 is discontinued. I just picked up a Sandisk G Drive 4TB to try which claims to have improved cooling. A couple questions for you:

1) Do you notice much the speed improvement using RAID 0 in practice? Aside from the cost of the additional disks, RAID 0 increases the chance of failure (I realize you're keeping a duplicate set for backup). Generally, I haven't had issues with performance although subjectively I would say the X5 has slowed down as it fills up.
2) To set up the RAID 0 with Disk Utility, I'd think you'd have to wipe the disks making up the RAID 0 volume, thus copying the data off the drives and back on again. Can Disk Utility create the RAID 0 in place with data already on a disk?




Dec 15, 2022 at 08:44 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


SpecFoto wrote:
Scott, I have a 2019 27” iMac and about 6 months ago I purchased a Samsung 2TB 980 Pro NVME and put it in a Acasis TB3/USB4 enclosure. I made it the start up drive, as the internal 512GB drive was just too limiting. It is just terrific and my speed are slightly faster than the internal SSD at W/2,500 R/2,600 +/-. Now I can have my full Lightroom lr.cat and lr.data files on the start-up drive, which makes Lightroom operate much quicker. Have been using 2 RAID 16TB USB-C enclosures (2x8THDD) for my LR files and backup, with a
...Show more

SSD'S in raid 0 are a good solution. 1000mb/s and good at handling heat. And from the experience I listed above, inexpensive nvme's are only great until they fill their buffer and then they are poor- whereas ssd's are keep their performance at 1,000mb/s which is pretty close to what the best nvme's get because of the the enclosure chipset limitations. Even 7200 hdd with raid 0 can get to 320mpb/s sustained as you point out which is better than what I am getting for 500gb with cheaper NVME. But I don't need my whole library like you - so I will wait for prices to improve on nvme's. The more epensive Kingston ones seem pretty good. My learning from all of the above is that if you want nvme's for fast big (>500gb) storage you have to buy the TLC's with big cache and read about them on the links I provided above related to cache, otherwise you should just buy ssd's.

I have the iMac 2017 with 64gb ram and 500gb ssd. I have the owc 1 to 3 TB3 dock with 4bay hdd, 1tbnvme and 2tb dual raid nvme. I have tested the ssd vs the nvme and did not see a big difference in speed between them but like you I am frustrated with the 250gb size because of my music files. Maybe I need to try the acacis enclosure for faster speed. I am thinking about getting a studio or mini if they upgrade to bigger ram and m2 - and its a shame to lose the 5k monitor.



Dec 16, 2022 at 05:04 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


amv8 wrote:
This is helpful. I've been using these small external SSDs for my photos and LR catalog for about 3 years now. Super convenient when switching between my MBP when traveling and the Studio when at home. My LR catalog and recent years photos are on a Samsung X5 2TB which is TB3 and the rest on a 4TB Sandisk Extreme V2. The Samsung X5 is filling up and it also looks like the X5 is discontinued. I just picked up a Sandisk G Drive 4TB to try which claims to have improved cooling. A couple questions for you:

1) Do you
...Show more

1) Raid zero basically doubles the mb/s. But generally internal ssd is faster because most older (iMac) share the TB bus. Using ssd for op system vs hdd would be really noticeable. Going from ssd internal to nvme external will only be dramatic if you are near the limit of your internal ssd or and you are using TB (not usb 3.2 or less). I stay away from full internal ssd by using external. So the answer is - it will be better if its TB3 or TB4 and you are constantly bumping up to full internal.

2) You will lose the data on the ssd's when you raid 0 them. You have to copy and copy back. This is the big benefit of nvme or ssd externals - copying happens really fast.



Dec 16, 2022 at 05:12 PM
amv8
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


Scott Stoness wrote:
1) Raid zero basically doubles the mb/s. But generally internal ssd is faster because most older (iMac) share the TB bus. Using ssd for op system vs hdd would be really noticeable. Going from ssd internal to nvme external will only be dramatic if you are near the limit of your internal ssd or and you are using TB (not usb 3.2 or less). I stay away from full internal ssd by using external. So the answer is - it will be better if its TB3 or TB4 and you are constantly bumping up to full internal.



Thx. For clarity, all my images and LR Catalog are on external SSDs so the internal SSD on my Mac Studio or MBP (which aren't close to full) shouldn't play a factor. However, if I'm doing RAID 0 with two external SSDs like the Sandisk Extremes which use USB 3.2 I wonder if the underlying bus architecture would still give me ~double the performance. The drives are connected to the TB3 ports on the Macs obviously. I recall reading somewhere that some folks also had problems with USB 3.2 performance on Mac Studio TB3 ports depending on the cable they used as well.




Dec 16, 2022 at 05:57 PM
SpecFoto
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · NVME SSD for Data Storage (QLC vs TLC)


amv8 wrote:
Thx. For clarity, all my images and LR Catalog are on external SSDs so the internal SSD on my Mac Studio or MBP (which aren't close to full) shouldn't play a factor. However, if I'm doing RAID 0 with two external SSDs like the Sandisk Extremes which use USB 3.2 I wonder if the underlying bus architecture would still give me ~double the performance. The drives are connected to the TB3 ports on the Macs obviously. I recall reading somewhere that some folks also had problems with USB 3.2 performance on Mac Studio TB3 ports depending on the cable they
...Show more



Here are some transfer speed times for external drives to consider with both my 2019 iMac w/512GB SSD, but I used a Samsung T7 2TB as the startup drive (not the faster Acasis with 2TB 980Pro NVME mentioned above), and a 2022 14" MBP M1 Pro with 1TB internal SSD. Tested this morning for transferring a 75GB folder that has raw, jpegs and mp4 files in it. The cables used were the 6" long USB-C cables that came with the SanDisk SSD. Normally I use HD TB4 cables about 2 feet long, however for this test I used the slower T7 startup SSD and standard in the box cables to give a more realistic result of what most would see.

2019 iMac with 2TB Samsung T7 as start up drive-Thru OWC TB4 Hub
Time 1:28 Reading from T7 SSD startup and writing to 8TB RAID (2 SanDisk ExtremeV2 4TB)
Time 2:21 Reading from T7 SSD startup and writing to 1TB SanDisk Extreme V2 (single SSD)
Time 4:14 Reading from T7 SSD startup and writing to 16TB RAID (2@8TB HDD) Not thru Hub, direct 5GB/s USB A port on iMac.

2022MBP M1 Pro with 1TB internal drive as startup
Time 0:46 Reading from internal drive and writing to 8TB RAID
Time 2:21 Reading from internal drive and writing to 1TB SD V2 (same time as iMac)
Sorry no 16TB RAID test....too much hassle to disconnect and set this up....Another reason to love the SanDisk Extreme 2 disk SSD RAID Setup

And for transferring data from the external SSD to the Mac M1 Pro
Time 0:39 Reading from 8TB RAID and writing to internal 1TB drive
Time 1:39 Reading from 1TB SDV2 and writing to internal 1TB

So your can see the 8TB RAID setup with 2 SanDisk Extreme 4TB SSD is very fast in both reading and writing, much faster than just a single SSD. And that the Writing speed to the 1TB SSD is much slower than the Reading speed from it, a faster M1 Mac does not improve this. But both are double or more the speed of using a HDD RAID setup.

Far as using Disk Utility to set up RAID. Yes, you must wipe the drives clean (erase at the top level of the SSD if using Monterey or Ventura, not just the Container) and format for the RAID to be set up. Then go up to File in the Menu bar and select Raid Assist in the dropdown menu, it will have a 2nd screen to select the type of RAID you want and then another to select the 2 drives. Finally you pick the size for the blocks. I chose 64KB rather than 32KB as I am writing large raw files (61MB) from a A7RiV.




Dec 17, 2022 at 01:27 PM
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