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Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

OregonSun
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p.13 #1 · p.13 #1 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Desmolicious wrote:
And very very profitable.

There's a sucker born every minute

Nov 05, 2022 at 11:31 AM

retrofocus
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p.13 #2 · p.13 #2 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Desmolicious wrote:
And he irrationally is upset by that. Regular film photographers can buy an M6. If they so choose. They just don't want to budget for it.

Let's see who impacts the film shooter community by new camera sales:

Total sales, new 35mm film cameras 2022:

Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Olympus, Minolta, Contax combined:

0 - hold on, let me check that again.... Carry the two, multiply by 6, take into account old stock, yep, ZERO.

Total sales Leica M film cameras 2021:

11, 342 (ok I'm guessing but you get the point. It is a lot more than 0... ;p )

Again you are not replying to the original topic here which is about the new M6 and how this specific one affects the film community.

Nov 05, 2022 at 12:09 PM

SlowDriver
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p.13 #3 · p.13 #3 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Desmolicious wrote:
If you own a Leica, they will do what they can to service you.

Just to be absolutely clear, this is only valid for M film cameras, Leica will not service an X Typ 113 released in 2014 nor will they service an R film camera.

Nov 05, 2022 at 03:01 PM

panos.v
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p.13 #4 · p.13 #4 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

So forget about the M6. What if someone made a new film camera? Be it a rangefinder or an SLR. Take your pick. Say Nikon brings back the F3. Or F100. Or Canon the 1V or maybe a lowly 300. How much would it cost? How much should it cost for people to buy it vs a used one. I bought a new EOS 300 for £200 in 2002. That is £330 today, vs £5 on ebay. So how cheap does a camera need to be new to buy it? The 1V was £1800 or so. How much would it be today?

People today would be able to afford as much "new" as they could afford back in the day. The only being difference is that all the "new" stuff is available at 1/10 of the price used as well.

Nov 05, 2022 at 04:24 PM

retrofocus
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p.13 #5 · p.13 #5 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

panos.v wrote:
So forget about the M6. What if someone made a new film camera? Be it a rangefinder or an SLR. Take your pick. Say Nikon brings back the F3. Or F100. Or Canon the 1V or maybe a lowly 300. How much would it cost? How much should it cost for people to buy it vs a used one. I bought a new EOS 300 for £200 in 2002. That is £330 today, vs £5 on ebay. So how cheap does a camera need to be new to buy it? The 1V was £1800 or so. How much would it...Show more →

I think the barrier is around $500 as max for most younger photographers who try to get into film with a used film camera. $1000-1500 for enthusiasts - count me in here, I bought my first used Leica M six years ago for $1100, my upper set limit was $1500. To be honest, for current used prices I would now never consider getting into Leica M. I am a full believer that a new cheaper Leica film M around $2000 would be considered by enthusiastic amateurs (yes, it is clear that this will never happen in reality the way Leica is pushing the brand as already mentioned earlier). Competitive with the used market where current M series cameras are mostly available in a lesser quality for the same price. But >$5K....this is certainly no longer this target group which actually influences predominantly the film market.

Nov 05, 2022 at 04:40 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #6 · p.13 #6 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

retrofocus wrote:
Again you are not replying to the original topic here which is about the new M6 and how this specific one affects the film community.

Leica is an extremely important part of the film community being that they are the only ones making new quality cameras. By introducing another quality camera that has massive demand shows they are supporting the film community.
It is up to those in the film community to pony up for it, there is already a very long waiting list for it. So the film community has spoken.
Leica makes expensive cameras, everyone in the film community knows that. And yet they are seen as extremely desirable and aspirational. Their success is because of their market placement.
That youtuber just put out this video for clicks. He needed an angle, and got it.

Nov 05, 2022 at 06:47 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #7 · p.13 #7 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Nov 05, 2022 at 06:48 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #8 · p.13 #8 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

OregonSun wrote:
There's a sucker born every minute

Seriously though, you're exactly right, Leica will continue to make decisions primarily based on profitability. If that means making film cameras, I guess that's good for the film community in some vague kind of way.

How is it good in a vague way? They are the only ones making quality film cameras. It is aspirational for many film photographers who in the mean time are shooting film in whatever they have.

As for a sucker born every minute? How is someone a sucker if they buy something that brings them joy? The suckers are those who live on the constant upgrade cycle, always needing the new shiny thing.

Nov 05, 2022 at 06:51 PM

1bwana1
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p.13 #9 · p.13 #9 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Shooting an M camera with Leica M glass is a very rewarding and inspiring way to practice photography.
So much history, such fine craftmanship. The photographer must put thought and skill into making images with a Leica M system. True whether you shoot digital or film. I think the film shooters are even closer to the legacy and history of photography. It is an esthetic, and a practice that has very real attraction for many.

Leica products are expensive. They are also special in many ways. Either you can afford it, or you are motivated to find a way to afford it used or new. It is hard to justify the pricing of Leica products using normal metrics. Legacy, and craft play such an important role in the value proposition. Recently a Leica film camera sold for around $15 Million at open auction. Legacy can be huge driver of value, and it trickles down. It is unlikely that such prices would be reached if the new price of a Leica was in line with mass produced cameras. It is also unlikely that new prices would be so high without those legacy items in the market. In brands such as Leica there is a symbiotic relationship between the price of new and the price of legacy. They support each other.

Nov 05, 2022 at 07:25 PM

pmeheut
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p.13 #10 · p.13 #10 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

But whatever we say, we will always have bitter, jealous people complaining that Leica is expensive.
And because this is the Internet, we will always have people who know nothing about management & economy pretending to explain to successful companies what they should do instead. And usually this is something along the lines of "you should do this which lead others to fail but because it would be convenient for me, I'll pretend this is smart and logical".

Here we are lucky, we have only one or two people like this.

Nov 05, 2022 at 08:39 PM

panos.v
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p.13 #11 · p.13 #11 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Desmolicious wrote:
The last affordable film camera Nikon sold was the charmless plastic FM10, that at the end cost $700, Made by Cosina.

Exactly. $700 for a crappy FM10 when for half that you can buy a top of the line used camera. If they were to re-release that, who in their right mind would buy it and why? No manufacturer can compete with an abundance of cheap used equipment. And nobody can compete on features, given there are no features to be added to something like the F6 or 1V (and if you ever go to somewhere like photrio they'd argue that a battery is a feature too far...). So the only market left is the high end, which Leica caters for.

In any case, given you now need to pay upwards of $15 for a roll of film, soon the only people that will be able to afford film are the ones that can afford a new M6...

I'm going to make a wild prediction here...medium format will go first, given the equipment is more fragile, less available and ageing worse. 35mm will eventually become unafordable (unless Kodak or someone finds a way to make film cheaper), leaving large format the only effective format in film. Which is a sort of full circle back to where photography started. Right, gonna go get my tin foil hat cleaned now

Nov 06, 2022 at 05:33 AM

highdesertmesa
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p.13 #12 · p.13 #12 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

We don't give it a second thought when someone buys a new A1, Z9 or GFX 100S at a similar price point – or when someone buys a $90K vehicle that will lose half its value over 5 years. $5.5K for a new film camera is nothing in this economy. I'm actually surprised they haven't raised the price of their film cameras to the price of the M11.

Nov 06, 2022 at 10:44 AM

1bwana1
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p.13 #13 · p.13 #13 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

highdesertmesa wrote:
We don't give it a second thought when someone buys a new A1, Z9 or GFX 100S at a similar price point – or when someone buys a $90K vehicle that will lose half its value over 5 years. $5.5K for a new film camera is nothing in this economy. I'm actually surprised they haven't raised the price of their film cameras to the price of the M11.

True.

Pricing must be viewed in the context of the overall financial position of a targeted customer base. In Leica's case Dr. Kaufman, Leica Chairman and majority owner, has said that Leica prices its cameras so that generally a body and lens will cost between 1.5 and 2 times the salary of a customer (he referenced the average full time salary of a German executive). He said that this is not new, it has been this way throughout Leica's history. That would be an interesting study to undertake. The median salary of a manager in Germany is currently Eu 6,590. Including tax the price of an M11 in Germany is EU 8,750 and the price of a 50mm Summicron is EU 2,500, for a total of EU11,250. That comes out to 1.70 times the salary. Right in the middle of Dr Kaufman's stated pricing model.

This is not a pricing model unique to Leica. Many Luxury items are priced this way. De Beers used this sort of model when setting the price of diamonds, and even featured it in its advertising. Here is more information on how that was deployed.

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/money/a32609/two-months-salary-engagement-ring-rule-origin/

Leica is not a commodity item that is priced on cost to produce. It is a luxury brand item.

No, Leica is not over priced. In many ways it is not even a particularly relevant question to ask. Leica is priced and positioned so that it appeals to a certain segment of the market, society, and the economy that segment lives in.

Nov 06, 2022 at 01:00 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #14 · p.13 #14 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

So I got a generic email saying delivery may be sometime next year...

Remember the claims that Leica was using all new parts due to supply chain issues? Sure they are.

So much for that November release. Even though one dood on l-camera actually got a camera! But none of his buddies that signed up the moment he did, did.

Nov 07, 2022 at 12:33 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #15 · p.13 #15 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

This video give the clearest look, IMO, of what the matte black paint looks like.
I find the current BP too shiny, and the black chrome a little too thin looking. This seems to be the perfect balance of the two - nice, rich and deep but not shiny.

Nov 07, 2022 at 04:56 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #16 · p.13 #16 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

FYI best chance of getting newly released Leica gear is to check the actual Leica website, not a Leica Store or dealer.
In the US it would be leicacamerausa.com

It is updated several times a day.

Nov 10, 2022 at 04:54 PM

stgrove
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p.13 #17 · p.13 #17 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Heard today that now non-Leica Stores can order the 2022 M6 which was not the case when first introduced.

Dec 20, 2022 at 09:16 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #18 · p.13 #18 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

stgrove wrote:
Heard today that now non-Leica Stores can order the 2022 M6 which was not the case when first introduced.

Yeah you can order it. But they have no idea when they will get any. Which pretty much is the same as regular Leica Stores! They seem to just show up, a couple at a time.

Dec 20, 2022 at 11:58 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #19 · p.13 #19 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Just as a follow up. I received my new 2022 M6 and noticed that it scratches film. It is currently being repaired by Leica NJ.
Leica Store LA (a corporate Leica shop) would have traded it out for another one, but didn't have any.

Dec 23, 2022 at 05:47 PM

Desmolicious
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p.13 #20 · p.13 #20 · Will Leica bring the M6 film camera back to life?

Was just told it would be a six week wait. Brand new Leica, six week wait for repair.

Dec 30, 2022 at 12:32 AM

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