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Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead

  
 
PicGuy
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


JRobertson wrote:
Again, for short wide angle shots, sure. I'd love to see how a camera in a phone can compete with a 600mm f4 capturing BIF or sports. The physical limits on the smart phone don't lend themselves to such capabilities. In the end, you can only fit so much glass in a phone camera. That's to say, isn't going to happen in my lifetime.


How many ILC users have, or need, a 600mm f/4 lens? I never said these devices would completely replace ILCs. However, they would replace them for a large number of users just like smartphones have met the needs of most people who used dedicated cameras ten years ago. Also, you are thinking these devices will have the form and capability of a current smartphone. They will have multiple forms and use cases. Some will be ILCs. Some will be more P&S oriented. IMO, the MFT format will be a great candidate for the upper end of these devices. Or maybe a variant of the 1" sensor format. I think we will see these devices within 10-15 years time. Maybe sooner.



Sep 07, 2022 at 09:42 AM
PicGuy
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


lighthound wrote:
I couldn't agree more. It's inevitable that the day is coming for such an imageing device aka " Photographer phone" in the next 10-15 years. With all the advancements in hardware and software we are yet to see, these devices will surely replace our 30+ lb. backpacks full of antiquated gear.
As you say, the writing is on the wall.


I never said these devices would replace ILCs. You will still be able to lug around whatever amount of ILC gear you choose if you want to do so. In fact, if you don't mind selling a few organs you will still be able to buy a new 30 lb bag of gear in 10-15 years.



Sep 07, 2022 at 09:53 AM
PicGuy
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


dolina wrote:
1987-2018: EF mount
2018-2049: RF mount
2049-onwards: Medium format in a smartphone form factor?


By 2049 smartphones, or whatever replaces them, will likely have medium format quality. This is assuming we, or nature/universe, haven't knocked us back to an 1800s standard of living.



Sep 07, 2022 at 09:58 AM
tkbslc
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


PicGuy wrote:
A lot of people never saw the smartphone happening either.




Are you really trying to compare a niche imaging device to a universal, do-everything, pocket supercomputer that has appeal for 99.9% of the population?




Sep 07, 2022 at 10:32 AM
curious80
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


bobbytan wrote:
Definitely shrinking but far from dead. The Sony RX100 is still very much in demand for photographers who need a compact pocket camera.....




I used the original RX100 and the similar Canon G7X for a few years, but now significantly prefer my Pixel phones over those. The 1/1.3" sensor in my Pixel 6 Pro is only slightly smaller than the 1" sensor in RX100 and is paired with a fast f1.85 lens (The recent RX100 cameras all start at f2.8). Once combined with the powerful computational photography it can produce great results in a variety of conditions which will be much harder to achieve with RX100. You also get the ultra-wide angle 16mm which you don't get with RX100. At the telephoto end it is definitely more limited - it has 100mm telephoto, whereas current RX100 bodies go all the way to 200mm. However personally for me the focal lengths above 100mm are very infrequently needed in day-to-day walk-around shooting.

As remarkable as RX100 series is, ultimately for me it was a 'neither here nor there' camera. The sensor is significantly smaller than say an APS-C mirrorless camera and is paired with a not so fast lens. So in difficult conditions it requires a lot more careful shooting and post-processing to get good results. In some cases like very low light scenarios you are not able to do much even with careful shooting and processing. It also doesn't come close to the sophisticated exposure and processing of flagship smartphones which allow them to get good results with smaller sensors. Depending on the scenario I would either take my APS-C mirrorless or I would take the phone.

The only 'P&S' cameras I would still be interested in, are large sensor ones like Rx1R II (which I own), Leica Q2 (which I can't afford ) and Ricoh GR III etc.

Edited on Sep 07, 2022 at 12:04 PM · View previous versions



Sep 07, 2022 at 11:05 AM
PicGuy
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


tkbslc wrote:


Are you really trying to compare a niche imaging device to a universal, do-everything, pocket supercomputer that has appeal for 99.9% of the population?


No. I am comparing imaging devices that will evolve from a universal, do-everything, pocket supercomputer to a branch of photography that is dying off more and more as each day passes. Photographers won't go away but the gear they use does and is replaced by new tech. This model has been present through the history of photography and will be its future. We have a dying legacy ILC niche and a quickly emerging, and advancing, computational photography segment. This scenario has happened many times before with photography and is happening again. Every time it has happened there have been those that initially resist the change. Followed by nearly everyone eventually adopting it.



Sep 07, 2022 at 11:34 AM
Dexter75
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


They may be dead as far as new models or new sales but not on Ebay, where prices on older CCD sensor and even film P&S cameras have skyrocketed in popularity and price in the last year or two. I just recently picked up an old Canon G11 and SD630 because those older sensors have a more filmic look than the more current CMOS sensors. I actually prefer the colors out of the older CCD sensors.


Sep 07, 2022 at 02:21 PM
PicGuy
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


Dexter75 wrote:
They may be dead as far as new models or new sales but not on Ebay, where prices on older CCD sensor and even film P&S cameras have skyrocketed in popularity and price in the last year or two. I just recently picked up an old Canon G11 and SD630 because those older sensors have a more filmic look than the more current CMOS sensors. I actually prefer the colors out of the older CCD sensors.


This is typical of older technology. It stays around on the used market for decades. One can still buy gear made 100 years ago. The good thing about DSLRs is there are tens of millions of them out there and the used market for them will go on for decades to come. I still have a film camera along with the lenses I used back in the 1980s. Don't ask me why because the odds are I will never use it again. I also have a Sony P200 which I think is one of the best P&S cameras Sony made for its time. I agree there is a "look" to many of the images from the older gear. This said, I don't think there are many people these days seeking out these cameras to use. Fuji has done a good job of offering simulation modes to get close to the older photographic film styles. This said, I don't miss much from the film era.



Sep 07, 2022 at 04:02 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


I would not say that P&S cameras are dead... but they sure are in decline... and they no longer can provide camera companies with the same kind of mass market that they used to rely on for meeting the bottom line. There's no question that this has changed and will continue to change the camera market.

The capabilities of smartphones are becoming quite astounding. A little story. I spent a week in the Sierra backcountry last month with a group of (landscape) photographers. In keeping with my policy of not bringing them personally into threads here — where things sometimes get a bit nasty — I won't name them. (If you follow me on social media you can almost certainly figure this out.)

One of them is probably one of the best known and most successful (photographically, and in other ways) landscape photographers in the western states, and someone I'm honored to call a friend. One evening as we sat around the not-a-campfire (someone's LED lantern) he mentioned that he had been to Apple recently as a so-called influencer, where he had seen some of their new phone camera technology. He also shared some photographs he had made that day — pretty spectacular work — using his iPhone.

His primary system is still almost always his full frame camera system, but if he (and you, and I) can sometimes produce credible, even excellent, photographs with these phone cameras, they are beyond sufficient for your average "point and shoot" style photographer.

On the other hand, on some recent travels I've made a point of looking around to see what people are actually using when out and about. I do see a ton of folks just using their smartphones, obviously. But I also still see a pretty good number using what we think of as point and shoot cameras – probably the next most popular thing. Then I see quite a few "low end" DSLRs — yes, DSLRs — that folks probably bought a decade ago and which still work pretty well for them. The least common cameras are the kinds of dedicated systems that we tend to lust after in these forums.

FWIW,

Dan



Sep 07, 2022 at 05:06 PM
Gregory Edge
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


I have a DSLR with 5 or 6 expensive telephoto lenses. I almost never use the kit anymore. Since my son joined the Navy and grew up I don't photograph sports anymore so the fast tele lenses just sit.

I do enjoy using a purpose built camera and lug it around with a 24-105 lens but many times I just like not having to carry the heavy setup or having idiots constantly bump into me. I bought a Leica type 109 and it take great photos but I don't like the ergonomics of it and the size is a hair big for front pocket carry. If wearing a jacket it is fine but who wears a jacket in Florida or a tropical island?

My phone takes damn good pictures in good lighting and the form factor is pocketable. It is not ergonomic like a DSLR but either are most point and shoots. The phone in low light is not great but either are P&S cameras. I don't particularly like the phone for anything, not even phone calls. The shape is awful and no buttons is annoying but it is convenient having essentially 3 or 4 devices in your pocket.



Sep 10, 2022 at 07:44 AM
 


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Bassat
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


Desmolicious wrote:
It focuses and sets exposure automatically? My 124g was manual everything.


No, it does not focus or expose automatically. Like I said, it is a total POINT & SHOOT. Nothing else. Not even a meter. Kinda like my Brownie Hawkeye, but with glass (not plastic) lens.



Sep 17, 2022 at 07:10 AM
GabrielPhoto
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


Similar to my experience.
I bought an rx100 vii one more time for when I will travel and don't want to take my FF gear.
But after comparing to my S22 Ultra in most cases I preferred the results from the phone and since it can go from 13mm to 240mm, it covers a nice range as well.

The one camera I do keep for when I want the superior versatility and autofocus of a real camera is the RX10 IV..that thing is a beast with a fantastic lens across the range.

curious80 wrote:
I used the original RX100 and the similar Canon G7X for a few years, but now significantly prefer my Pixel phones over those. The 1/1.3" sensor in my Pixel 6 Pro is only slightly smaller than the 1" sensor in RX100 and is paired with a fast f1.85 lens (The recent RX100 cameras all start at f2.8). Once combined with the powerful computational photography it can produce great results in a variety of conditions which will be much harder to achieve with RX100. You also get the ultra-wide angle 16mm which you don't get with RX100. At the telephoto end
...Show more



Sep 17, 2022 at 09:06 AM
Desmolicious
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


Bassat wrote:
No, it does not focus or expose automatically. Like I said, it is a total POINT & SHOOT. Nothing else. Not even a meter. Kinda like my Brownie Hawkeye, but with glass (not plastic) lens.


It is fixed focus, fixed exposure? Those cannot be adjusted?



Sep 17, 2022 at 10:02 AM
AmbientMike
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


One place p&s can still beat phones: telephoto. I just don't think you are going to be able to beat 24-600 in a tiny p&s very easily at all. Or a 55-250 on a rebel. People complain about not wanting to carry anything, but there's little or no interest in rebels and the uber lightweight kit lenses. So it makes little or no sense to me.

I just don't really like phone photography. I've been seeing some really nice photos presumably taken from a phone on fb lately , and I'll use one occasionally, but mostly I'm not that interested.

If it comes to using a phone all the time I might be done.



Sep 17, 2022 at 11:22 AM
Bassat
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


Desmolicious wrote:
It is fixed focus, fixed exposure? Those cannot be adjusted?


No, to both. The only thing that can't be adjusted is the focal length; 80mm on 6x6 is approximately 50mm on 35mm. The focus is completely manual, the aperture and shutter speeds are also completely manual. There is no meter, so no need for a battery. No ISO input, either. I usually keep ISO and 'Sunny 16' in my head to guess at exposure. For flash work, I go to manual mode on my 580EX II, and figure flash power manually. Photography the way it was meant to be: controlled by the photographer. With the exception of flash, exposure calculations are an educated guess, most of the time.

Admittedly, I would not shoot the grandkids' field sports with this camera.



Sep 21, 2022 at 07:12 AM
dolina
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


I expect the full frame point & shoot March 2019 Leica Q2 replacement to be out by Dec 2022/Jan 2023.

Year 2022 has zero announcement of any new point & shoot SKUs.

I wonder if sales will drop to less than a million shipped units worldwide?



Sep 21, 2022 at 09:17 AM
Bacalhau
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


PicGuy wrote:
By 2049 smartphones, or whatever replaces them, will likely have medium format quality. This is assuming we, or nature/universe, haven't knocked us back to an 1800s standard of living.


ah-ah....and by the century's end, a 'borg' style implant for the dedicated pro's.
There is a lot of technology and advancements of all sorts still to come, I have no doubt, but one thing I doubt will come anytime soon, it's the ability to change the laws of physics directly related to imaging or not



Sep 21, 2022 at 09:53 AM
jcolwell
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


Bacalhau wrote:
ah-ah....and by the century's end, a 'borg' style implant for the dedicated pro's.


I think it'll be a lot sooner, and it'll be adopted by a lot more people. Think, Meta 2.0 (was FB).



Sep 21, 2022 at 10:09 AM
Bacalhau
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


dolina wrote:
I expect the full frame point & shoot March 2019 Leica Q2 replacement to be out by Dec 2022/Jan 2023.

Year 2022 has zero announcement of any new point & shoot SKUs.

I wonder if sales will drop to less than a million shipped units worldwide?


Q3 before year's end? Leica still milking the special editions - just releasing the "Dawn" by Seal - special edition....likely a couple more sp's to get rid of old stock (after all they are just changing the shell)



Sep 21, 2022 at 10:38 AM
PicGuy
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead


Bacalhau wrote:
ah-ah....and by the century's end, a 'borg' style implant for the dedicated pro's.
There is a lot of technology and advancements of all sorts still to come, I have no doubt, but one thing I doubt will come anytime soon, it's the ability to change the laws of physics directly related to imaging or not


The laws of physics don't have to change. It will come down to something similar to what happened with smartphone screen resolution. Smartphone screens kept getting higher and higher in resolution until they hit a point where more resolution didn't matter to the user because the human eye could no longer perceive any difference between HD and 3k/4k on such a small screen. The same thing will happen with camera gear as time passes and smartphone tech advances. The small devices that we will be using will provide more than sufficient image quality and this will make the large, expensive gear irrelevant in practical use. Smartphones have already done this to P&S cameras and I see no reason why the advancement of computational photography based devices will stop there. ILCs will be the rare exception of photography gear as time passes. This gear will no longer be needed, desired or affordable for 99+% of people taking photos. There will still be ILC gear for a long time. It just will be in fewer and fewer hands as time passes. We have seen this happen very dramatically over the past 10-12 years and it won't stop happening going forward.



Sep 21, 2022 at 11:43 AM
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