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Archive 2022 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments

  
 
John Power
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


Interesting video






Aug 06, 2022 at 07:27 AM
macentropist
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


John Power wrote:
Interesting video





While interesting, i mostly disagree that APSC is acceptable for anything but wildlife, all else full frame will be far superior.

2 pence



Aug 06, 2022 at 10:03 AM
Tom_W
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


Wars have been started over this issue!
It's hotter than a 50 f/1.0L box on the B&S market.



Aug 06, 2022 at 10:14 AM
macentropist
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


Tom_W wrote:
Wars have been started over this issue!
It's hotter than a 50 f/1.0L box on the B&S market.


Tom, i am not starting a war, and no 50mm f1.0 boxes have sold for years that i am aware of! I assert that APSC is very viable for wildlife and birding, i own an R7 for that reason. For architecture, landscapes, portraiture, and street photography, the full frame usually wins hands down.

Ymmy, just my 2 pence

Brian



Aug 06, 2022 at 10:37 AM
Sy Sez
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


Is a Truck superior to a Car? Is a Sledgehammer superior to a Tack Hammer, or are they simply tools within the same category, but each best suited for differing tasks.

Should all of us whose Cameras have Full Frame, 24mm X 36mm sensors consider that our Camera is inferior because it's not up to the superior attributes of Medium-Format, 5X7, or 8X10 View Cameras?

Personally, I use both APS-C, & FF as, I deem appropriate to the shooting situation, with no thought of either being superior, or inferior, which IMO would be somewhat ill-considered.



Aug 06, 2022 at 10:42 AM
Z250SA
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


For me itīs all about reach. I started with the 450D, moved up to the 7D with the 400/5.6L with 640mm reach. Today with the R5 I get almost all the reach I can manage with the 800/11. No need for a cropper to get reach.

I would guess (not having enough energy to dig into it...) that the difference in IQ, that was relevant when I compared my 7D to my 5D2, is much smaller now if comparing a R5 and a R7. But the myth was established when there was a visible benefit of the FF, not large, but visible in many situations.



Aug 06, 2022 at 11:09 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


These days, the only real difference between FF and APS-C, is the magnification you need to produce same-size output. In some situations, for example with high ISO artifacts, the lower magnification for a FF image will be apparent. In most situations, it will not.

Practical differences can appear. For example, when you want to do something with lens movements, like a shift panorama. Unless you have a set of APS-C Tilt-Shift lenses, you'll probably have to take more images (and process them), with the smaller-sensor camera.



Aug 06, 2022 at 12:10 PM
EverLearning
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


While there has been great progress on APSC sensors, there is still at least one difference that one needs to consider.

Everybody's definition and comfort zone of "acceptable" IQ for "high ISO" is different but here is an example of the difference I refer to, and it is one that mostly affects wildlife photographers and night photographers. The 10D was perhaps "acceptable" up to 400 ISO. The 7D Mark II was perhaps "acceptable" up to 1600 ISO (no need for a whole bunch of posts about how you can get perfectly clean images at 16000 ISO; this is just a demonstrative example). Perhaps the R7 delivers "acceptable" images at 3200 ISO. But each time APSC has improved it's high ISO capabilities, FF has also taken a step forward. And yes, the NR s/w has vastly improved over the years, but what works for "high ISO" images on APSC also works for "high ISO" images on FF. So a top end APSC camera may very well have better high ISO noise management than a top FF from 3 or 4 years ago, but it still isn't going to beat out a FF at the edges of morning and evening light (or in the dark for nightscape photography).

Sensors have gotten better. NR s/w has gotten better. Fast lenses have gotten lighter. In combination, we can now take cleaner photos than we could in the past OR take photos that just weren't possible in the past (if one wants a certain standard of image IQ).

Cropping a FF, high ISO image may make it just as noisy as an uncropped image at the same ISO on an APSC but one can negate that by spending more for a big fast prime so as to not need to crop. How much do you want to spend and how much weight you want to carry will determine what IQ you can get at the edges of daylight.

I shot APSC for years but finally gave up waiting for a 7D MII replacement and bought the R5. While I love it, I am usually craving more reach than I can get with my 100-400 II and 1.4x TC OR craving more light with that combo. I am holding out hope for the rumoured RF 500mm f/4.5 DO lens. Others may be completely content with the R7 and the 100-500. It comes down to what do you shoot, when do you shoot, how big do you print, what is acceptable IQ for you and how much are you willing to pay. As Sy Sez said, they are tools and are best suited for differing tasks as they still differ.



Aug 06, 2022 at 01:19 PM
armd
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


EverLearning wrote:
While there has been great progress on APSC sensors, there is still at least one difference that one needs to consider.

Everybody's definition and comfort zone of "acceptable" IQ for "high ISO" is different but here is an example of the difference I refer to, and it is one that mostly affects wildlife photographers and night photographers. The 10D was perhaps "acceptable" up to 400 ISO. The 7D Mark II was perhaps "acceptable" up to 1600 ISO (no need for a whole bunch of posts about how you can get perfectly clean images at 16000 ISO; this is just a demonstrative
...Show more

"I am holding out hope for the rumoured RF 500mm f/4.5 DO lens."

Buy a 100-500 or 500 f/4 or 600 f/4 prime. Yes, tradeoffs exist but it is impossible to shoot with vapor lenses? Alternatively, come up with a ED/VR to RF adapter and make a mint.



Aug 06, 2022 at 02:28 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments




The same discussions on this subject that have been repeating for about twenty years.



Aug 06, 2022 at 03:23 PM
EverLearning
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


armd wrote:
"I am holding out hope for the rumoured RF 500mm f/4.5 DO lens."

Buy a 100-500 or 500 f/4 or 600 f/4 prime. Yes, tradeoffs exist but it is impossible to shoot with vapor lenses? Alternatively, come up with a ED/VR to RF adapter and make a mint.


armd, the Canon EF 500mm f/4 II is about 11 1/2 years old now. That it will be replaced with an RF 500mm is a given. It has been reported that there are five 500mm primes out in the wild being tested and it sounds like the f/4.5 DO is a front runner. The EF 500 II is over 7lbs. If it is the RF 500mm f/4.5 DO that comes to market, between a 1/3 stop slower, new materials and DO technology it should come in between 4 and 4.5lbs. As I am in my early 60s and prefer to free-hold my lens rather than go everywhere with a tripod or monopod, I feel it is worth it to me to wait. If not this year, I would expect something to come out first half next year.

The 600 f/4 prime is too expensive (about $19,200CDN) and only about 1/4lb lighter than the old EF 500mm II. The 100-500 is no better than the EF 100-400 with regards low light issues and trading in my 100-400 II for a 100-500 is just a waste of money that can go to a 500mm prime. For me (and I emphasize for me), I feel like the 100-500 has been somewhat compromised in its design regarding using a TC. I decided about a year ago that a 500mm prime is the right balance of reach (especially given how well they take TCs), weight and cost. Again, each to their own but this feels right for me.



Aug 06, 2022 at 04:01 PM
Tom_W
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


macentropist wrote:
Tom, i am not starting a war, and no 50mm f1.0 boxes have sold for years that i am aware of! I assert that APSC is very viable for wildlife and birding, i own an R7 for that reason. For architecture, landscapes, portraiture, and street photography, the full frame usually wins hands down.

Ymmy, just my 2 pence

Brian


No worries - I'm joking. There was a 50 f/1.0 box on the B&S forum at some point several years ago, and if I recall, it commanded a pretty decent price.

As for the subject, 10+ years ago, it was a point of contention. Now, I live with both formats, and even have an older 1D IV in the APS-H format.



Aug 06, 2022 at 04:11 PM
LS_Ren
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


For me the videos starts off explaining what a crop factor is, fine, but then he started to spread the age old misinformation that aps-c cameras could out perform FF cameras because it uses the only the middle 'sweet spot' of the image circle, which is categorically untrue. This is the sort of mis-information leads to the those who are new to this hobby to purchase bulkier & more expensive FF lenses for their aps-c camera only to get worse performance.

If one buys FF lenses for their APS-c camera because they plan to upgrade to FF, sure no problem with that. Otherwise to stick to APS-c lenses which were optimised for the smaller image circle.



Aug 06, 2022 at 06:48 PM
macentropist
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


LS_Ren wrote:
For me the videos starts off explaining what a crop factor is, fine, but then he started to spread the age old misinformation that aps-c cameras could out perform FF cameras because it uses the only the middle 'sweet spot' of the image circle, which is categorically untrue. This is the sort of mis-information leads to the those who are new to this hobby to purchase bulkier & more expensive FF lenses for their aps-c camera only to get worse performance.

If one buys FF lenses for their APS-c camera because they plan to upgrade to FF, sure no problem
...Show more

I completely agree, he went off range, no doubt! Circle of sharpness my arse! My new RF 85mm f1.2 is outstanding at a focal distance of 135mm.

Everyone is an expert!

Edited on Aug 06, 2022 at 09:09 PM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2022 at 09:05 PM
johnip
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


lemme know when they come out with the RF-S 500mm L lens


Aug 06, 2022 at 09:06 PM
Tom_W
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


Tom_W wrote:
...There was a 50 f/1.0 box on the B&S forum at some point several years ago, and if I recall, it commanded a pretty decent price.
...


I kind of wanted that box!



Aug 06, 2022 at 09:11 PM
macentropist
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


johnip wrote:
lemme know when they come out with the RF-S 500mm L lens


John, you do not have enough O2, GL with that!



Aug 06, 2022 at 09:11 PM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


The Sigma 17-35 I had did really well on aps. The corners got cut off, some not so hot on ff. So he is right in that regard. Mostly I enjoyed the video and agreed with his points.

Is ff better? Yes. But sometimes Ive looked at the 5DsR on DPR tool and thought "look at all the resolution! Gotta have one!" And other times I've looked, and thought, is anyone going to be able to tell the difference in a poster sized print. So I guess it depends on the mood I'm in.

I looked at going ff at one point, but the body I looked at not any sharper at iso 100 than 18mp aps in online files. Kinda killed my momentum in that direction. Maybe I should just carry a tripod, I thought.




Aug 06, 2022 at 09:16 PM
garyvot
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


It has always bothered me to mix formats for some reason, so I have always worked with two identical camera bodies. I have tried a couple of times to make a wholesale switch to APS-C, but always ended coming back to full frame. The rendering qualities of the larger sensor and the ability to more easily isolate subjects at shorter focal lengths have won out against the extra reach.

The R7 would make a nice adjunct to a full frame kit for wildlife though.



Aug 06, 2022 at 10:25 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Full frame v. APC - Canon mentioned in several comments


The old adage "its about the glass" applies here. Within the Canon lineup, the best zoom lenses have been the L series and these have all been for full frame. The EF-S and EF-M lineups have been mediocre by comparison, with a few exceptions like the 15-85, 55-250 STM and the 11-22 and some nice compact primes. I've probably missed some. The 15-85 is only ok compared to a 24-105 L and they weigh nearly the same. IMHO, Canon has never made a good standard zoom for their smaller bodies like the SL#s or Ms.

I've always paired a 5D# with an #0D using the crop primarily for reach and primarily with the 100-400 L. My 5D + 40D made a nice couple and I even carried both for air travel. After the 40D the APS-C sensors got quite noisy, again IMHO, with the 7D being particularly bad. I was delighted when Canon updated the 5D3's firmware to give f8 AF and I could use a 1.4x instead of an APS-C. The 70D and especially the 80D really improved the noise and DR of APS-C and the 90D/R7 is only a tad noisier. And now there is Topaz and DxO. Unless I'm really pushing things and need every photon I can get, the current APS-C sensors will do just as well provided you have a good lens in front of it.

So, its about the glass and Canon still doesn't completely support APS-C. Perhaps the Sony and Fuji systems do, I don't know.



Aug 07, 2022 at 10:24 AM
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