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"No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

TeamSpeed
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

sirimiri wrote:
Mirrorless "fanboi":

Reflex mirror in camera: "It's floppy!!! It's flappy!" (derision)
Repositionable rear camera sceen: "Flip out screen! Articulating screen!" (selling point)

What the heck does this have to do with this thread? Put the bong down, but I think I want to know the name of your supplier!

Jul 01, 2022 at 06:17 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

I have not read the whole thread — nor will I! — but it is important to keep in mind that statements like the one at the link are typically worded very carefully and in ways that allow (encourage?) multiple. interpretations... even though the literal meaning of the statement isn't what everyone thinks.

One danger with the statements at the link is in presuming that they are about a future direction of Canon products, that the statement tells us that the future of the M cameras is secure.

There's nothing it that article that is explicitly above the future role of the M cameras. The statements are all in the present tense. Every statement refers not to what "will be," but to "what is" at the current time. The cameras fulfill a role. Here is who they appeal to. Here is what they "sit alongside." And so on...

They could cancel the M line tomorrow and throw all remaining stock into the ocean, and every statement in that article would still be "true."

My point isn't pro- or anti-M. It is just that folks need to be careful about reading too much into marketing statements and articles like that one. It is very easy to hear what you want to hear rather than what they literally say.

Dan

(Edited)

Edited on Jul 01, 2022 at 10:07 AM · View previous versions

Jul 01, 2022 at 08:49 AM

jedibrain
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

gdanmitchell wrote:
I have not read the whole thread — nor will I! — but it is important to keep in mind that statements like the one at the link are typically worded very carefully and in ways that allow multiple. interpretations... even though the literal meaning of the statement ins't what everyone thinks.

One danger with the statements at the link is in presuming that they are about a future direction of Canon products, that the statement tells us that the future of the M cameras is secure.

But read the text of that article carefully and analytically. There's nothing it in that is explicitly...Show more →

Perhaps we need the Supreme Court of Photo Forums to interpret in detail the language used in this and all future camera manufacturer's statements.

-Brian

Jul 01, 2022 at 09:22 AM

TeamSpeed
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

I just use common sense and history of Canon (and other manufacturers) to know what is coming, and don't care too much about Canon marketing personally.

Canon won't ever make a new EF lens, or DSLR new model. That is certain.

Canon will start to phase out a couple FF and APS-C DSLRs in the coming year due to sales direction and the current R mount offerings, with what seems to be a very well received set of APS-C bodies.

If there is an R100, it certainly marks the end of most of the M series, and the R7/R10 has already started that event, given the size of the R10, better sensor and AF on the R7, etc. Those budget minded won't likely switch just yet, but the expectation is that the R100, should it be a real camera, will be even less than the R10.

I can hang my hat on these projections.

I probably should just bite the proverbial bullet and sell my M50 now, so I can get ready for a move.

I corrected the news article here though, lol:

Canon told us that "the EOS M line does currently have a place with us in our range," regardless of the overlap between its two lines of APS-C mirrorless cameras, now that the RF-S Canon EOS R7 and Canon EOS R10 have come to market.

Once supply chains settle down, and we can get the new APS-C R mount bodies to consumers, we will re-evaluate our offerings at that time.

Edited on Jul 01, 2022 at 10:04 AM · View previous versions

Jul 01, 2022 at 09:56 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

jedibrain wrote:
Perhaps we need the Supreme Court of Photo Forums to interpret in detail the language used in this and all future camera manufacturer's statements.

Nah. Just reading the literal words in the article should work.

Jul 01, 2022 at 10:03 AM

jedibrain
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

gdanmitchell wrote:
Nah. Just reading the literal words in the article should work.

This is all just inconsequential conjecture anyway, so take nothing personally. What you said could very well come true. Just having been in a consumer goods organization for several years in a past job, my impression is that people like us spend a lot more time thinking about the words in statements like these than the people at the company put in to making them. Not everything is carefully crafted language designed to hide or preview future plans. And not everyone making statements like these even has the information to know those future plans. I can recall at least a few times going in to a meeting about product X (i'll keep it anonymous) campaign plans and production needs, with full teams working toward a deadline with an approved budget, and then going to the next meeting where another set of people is talking about how that same product is going to be discontinued on Monday. So it would not surprise me either way if this guy knew full well black Monday for the M line is coming, or if he really thinks its around to stay. Still, I do enjoy the speculation.

One more thought on this topic in general - a lot of us say how we can't understand why Canon treats M the way they do, when we think we see a better way to have done it. Keep in mind - the M series is managed and developed by the Powershot group, not the same group that manages the DSLR/MILC line. And while it seems this shouldn't matter much, there is probably less coordination between those groups internally than you'd expect. So that could be a factor. Again, just more speculation.

Brian

Jul 01, 2022 at 10:18 AM

Atlasman2
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

I'd love to see Canon continue the development of the EOS M line—I'd buy, but in my opinion, it will be phased out over time. Two mounts is one mount too many.

Jul 01, 2022 at 10:20 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

jedibrain wrote:
This is all just inconsequential conjecture anyway, so take nothing personally. What you said could very well come true. Just having been in a consumer goods organization for several years in a past job, my impression is that people like us spend a lot more time thinking about the words in statements like these than the people at the company put in to making them. Not everything is carefully crafted language designed to hide or preview future plans. And not everyone making statements like these even has the information to know those future plans. I can recall at least a...Show more →

Fundamentally, I agree with you... which was basically my point about folks reading all sorts of tea leaves in the statements at the original link. There really isn't anything concrete there one way or another about the future of the M series.

I say this irrespective of any particular point of view regarding the value of the M cameras. (Personally I think they are interesting cameras, though I also wonder about their place going forward.)

Dan

Jul 01, 2022 at 11:47 AM

AmbientMike
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

It makes little or no sense that a Japanese company is going end the M line, a very popular camera in Japan, considering the precipitous drop in sales over the last decade. I'm pretty sure companies do dumb stuff on a regular basis but killing off the M line given it occupied 4 of the top ten spots in the list of Japanese camera sales I posted doesn't make a lot of sense

The M probably competes Fuji instax, among others. Another top seller in Japan that put Fuji ahead of Sony in the #2 spot for camera sales (I don't remember the exact criteria.) The M50 probably blows that camera away as far as capabilities. Granted the instant print thing is pretty cool. But reasons why canon is killing off the M have been around forever. And it's still here, and a top seller. I doubt that the average Japanese tourist carrying m + 15-45 is super concerned about the lack of auxiliary interchangeable lenses. And the Ef-s is apparently available on M series. And I believe R mount is larger in a market depending on size i.e. people valuing convenience over capabilities

It's odd to me that people actually using and apparently liking the M seem to get something out of prognosticating it's downfall. I don't really even like mirrorless that much lately and I'm left taking up for it. Doesn't do me much good to end the line though, suppose I want one? Rather have more cameras available. Might need one at some point.

Jul 01, 2022 at 12:33 PM

TeamSpeed
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

AmbientMike wrote:
It's odd to me that people actually using and apparently liking the M seem to get something out of prognosticating it's downfall. I don't really even like mirrorless that much lately and I'm left taking up for it. Doesn't do me much good to end the line though, suppose I want one? Rather have more cameras available. Might need one at some point.

So you really believe that in 1-2 years, Canon will either be making new M lines, or at least continue manufacturing the existing lines? How about 3-5?

You have to recognize the fact that the M line will go away eventually right? Why do you think the M line is popular? It is because of price point and size, including lenses, however...

o Canon hasn't made a new M lens for a very, very long time, and the M lens line is also very limited. The EFM mount existed for 6 years longer than the RF mount, yet there are now 17 RF lenses and still only 9 EFM lenses. Everything Canon has is being thrown at the R.

o Once there is an R mount APS-C body that is the size of the M50 and is priced around $600, there won't be any reason at all for people to buy M.

Don't worry, once you feel you need to make a move to mirrorless, you will have many great options available, better than anything in the current M line up, some very close to the current M and Rebel SL series bodies.

For those of us with the M bodies, I suspect we all mostly don't have any heartburn if we have to move from M to one of the small APS-C RF bodies that will exist in a couple of years. Moving from one Canon mirrorless to another, where size is pretty close, as well as a price tag that might be pretty close, won't be that difficult.

The one and only heartburn I have is that I cannot keep using EFM lenses, I have a couple very nice 3rd party primes that I really like. I will miss my very small 50 1.2 and 12 f2, but don't care about my 15-45, and I get to keep my 18-55 STM and 55-250 STM for use on my RF bodies.

Jul 01, 2022 at 01:18 PM

AmbientMike
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

Yes, if you rely on the rumor sites and your crystal ball to determine the future, I'm sure they're going to kill off the M line tomorrow.

Except I thought it'd be dead years ago. And it's not. Still apparently a big seller

Yes I'm sure if you harp at this long enough most things eventually cease to be manufactured, and you'll eventually be correct. But so far people saying this (for years!) have been incorrect.

Jul 01, 2022 at 01:40 PM

TeamSpeed
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

So good we are both in agreement that the M line will, at some point, end manufacturing. So we both have prophesied the end of the M line, just don’t agree on timing. I have 1-2 years that canon will stop selling any or all of the three remaining Ms (provided there is an R100, else it may take one more year), I will give you your prophesy that nothing will change until 3+ years.

Jul 01, 2022 at 03:24 PM

AmbientMike
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

This is a weird argument anyway.

I don't even really shoot mirrorless much currently and you apparently like your M.

At some point they'll probably quit making R mount too. If I start now I'll be right. Someday. No idea how long til they stop making M. Might have thought 2018 or sooner at one point. It doesn't make any sense to quit manufacturing a popular camera after the contraction the camera market has seen though.

Jul 01, 2022 at 04:42 PM

Mike_5D
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

AmbientMike wrote:
This is a weird argument anyway.

I don't even really shoot mirrorless much currently and you apparently like your M.

At some point they'll probably quit making R mount too. If I start now I'll be right. Someday. No idea how long til they stop making M. Might have thought 2018 or sooner at one point. It doesn't make any sense to quit manufacturing a popular camera after the contraction the camera market has seen though.

I think people are just questioning the need and market viability of maintaining two separate (and incompatible) mounts for the same sensor size. What does M bring to table that RF-S cannot? Certainly not its vast lens collection.

Jul 01, 2022 at 04:47 PM

johnctharp
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

I think the real nail in the coffin was that Canon didn't design the RF mount in a way that RF lenses could be adapted (easily) to the EF-M mount.

And certainly hasn't announced an effort to make that happen with a 'live shim' that would be required to make a 2mm-thick adapter.

Being able to adapt DSLR lenses (APS-C and FF) to the EOS-M was a standout feature, especially since they were 'native'. Not having access to newer RF lenses really makes further investments in the EOS-M line unpalatable, for consumers and almost certainly for Canon.

Now, I could see the EOS-M line stumble along with limited support - between the available EF-M lenses from Canon and a few third parties as well as support for EF and EF-S lenses, the system doesn't need to 'die', really, and updated technology that's used in current and future RF cameras could be ported over. Where I could really see Canon take EOS-M is in making ever more compact versions, and perhaps more compact lenses to go with them. Lenses that exhibit no focus breathing and zooms that are parfocal would be killer for compact video usage in dimensions that the RF mount prohibit, too.

Jul 01, 2022 at 04:49 PM

AmbientMike
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

Mike_5D wrote:
I think people are just questioning the need and market viability of maintaining two separate (and incompatible) mounts for the same sensor size. What does M bring to table that RF-S cannot? Certainly not its vast lens collection.

People have been saying similar for years though. If I ever picked a date might have been 5 years ago or something. But it's apparently good quality and maybe more importantly they seem to be selling a ton of them.

Isn't the R mount bigger than M? Can still buy a new powershot

Jul 01, 2022 at 04:59 PM

Mike_5D
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · "No, the EOS-M is not dead" says Canon

AmbientMike wrote:
People have been saying similar for years though. If I ever picked a date might have been 5 years ago or something. But it's apparently good quality and maybe more importantly they seem to be selling a ton of them.

Isn't the R mount bigger than M? Can still buy a new powershot

Yes, the RF mount diameter is larger than the EF-M mount by I think 7 mm. But look how the two RF-S lenses quickly taper so the lens barrel is probably the same diameter as the EF-M lenses. This would only be an issue on super tiny M bodies that are smaller than the RF mount.

Jul 01, 2022 at 05:03 PM

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