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Archive 2022 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


bobby350z wrote:
Agree with Dan on this high noise issue. GFX went from 50MP to 100MP and high ISO improved quite a bit.


To add to this...

I have several benchmarks along the way from my first digital camera (an Apple QuickTake way back in the 1990s) to today. My. first "testing-the-waters" DSLR, back when I was contemplating a move from (decades of photography with) film to digital for real was a Canon XT, a 8MP APS-C camera. Compared to what we use today, the noise was awful — significant at anything above the lowest ISO, limited DR, lots of color noise. Next up was a 12MP 5D. Technically, the photo site density was somewhat similar to that of the XT, but the noise performance was much improved — image quality at lowest ISO was excellent, and I generally didn't have to apply NR except to very dark areas of images with large DR.

From there I moved to a 20MP 5DII. Despite almost doubling the number of photo sites, the noise situation improved to the point that I felt confident about shooting (landscapes and long-exposure night photography) at 100-400 ISO and only had to apply minor NR at 400. I could go even higher when necessary, assuming that I as willing to do heavier work in post.

Next up was a 50MP 5DsR. Even though this camera more than doubled the number of photo sites, it managed noise at least a bit better than the 5DII, meaning that I got the extra resolution at (less than) zero cost in terms of noise. I use the camera for all kinds of photography, even for photography birds in low light situations, where I'll often shoot at 1600. This certainly requires NR, but the results are better than what I would have gotten at 1600 on the 6DII. (I occasionally even use 3200 and 6400 with this kind of subject.)

In Fujifilm terms I have only two points of comparison — the 16MP sensor of the original xE1 (my "test case" camera from Fujifilm) an the 24MP XPro2. That little 16MP sensor was really a good performer, and it served me well. But the 24MP sensor is even better in noise and DR terms, plus it increased the number of photo sites by 50%.

Dan



Jun 25, 2022 at 10:11 AM
Sauseschritt
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


gdanmitchell wrote:
Consistently, throughout the evolution of digital cameras, each new generation of sensors has been able to provide some balance of better noise performance, higher photo site density, speed (of various things). . So, it is virtually certain that a 40MP Fujfilm APS-C sensor will at least equal and perhaps exceed the noise performance of the previous generation 26MP sensors.

Companies usually do that because they know the backlash they might get if they ignore sensor performance.

Thats why you usually get an increase in Megapixels only when technology actually advances.

But occasionally theres a camera with clearly too high Megapixel count for the available technology at the time, like the Nikon D3x (24 Megapixel and problematic performance) or the Canon 5Ds (Canons 50 Megapixel reaction to the Nikon D800).

With the 40 Megapixel sensor the motive is obviously 8K in 16:9 aspect ratio. Thats why its exactly 40 Megapixel. Not more, not less.

Therefore I have no clue what gives you the idea they would for sure have any new tech to compensate. This might very well not be the case. They just might think they need the 8K video to stay competitive.

The additional fact that they offer the X-H2 in two different versions, and one of them still uses 26 Megapixels, is a hint for that.



Jun 26, 2022 at 05:44 AM
fjablo
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


I think you misunderstood what the use case for the D3X and 5Ds was (or is, they are still very good): Studio and low ISO landscapes.

Esp the D3X‘s sensor was better than the D3S up to ca ISO 400 (more pixels AND better DR).

It’s a relatively recent development that high res sensors are also amazing generalists - dual gain has helped a lot there. And now there is practically no DR / noise difference between sensors of the same generation when normalising for the same output size, regardless of mp count (usually less than half a stop difference).

Fuji chose 26mp for the X-H2s due to readout speed & data pipeline vs cost, not because of image quality concerns.



Jun 26, 2022 at 06:32 AM
f_a_98
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


In my opinion, I think Fuji got it wrong this time. Fuji should have only done one XH2 version (stacked)and two X-T5 versions (stacked and non stacked). The rest of the lineup could do the non-stacked.
Disappointed that XT5 would be non stacked.




Jun 26, 2022 at 06:48 AM
molson
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


f_a_98 wrote:
Disappointed that XT5 would be non stacked.



The stacked sensor seems to compromise dynamic range compared to non-stacked sensors (with the possible exception of the Sony A1). Fuji may not have wanted to trade image quality for speed for that model.



Jun 26, 2022 at 09:01 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Sauseschritt wrote:
Companies usually do that because they know the backlash they might get if they ignore sensor performance.

Thats why you usually get an increase in Megapixels only when technology actually advances.

But occasionally theres a camera with clearly too high Megapixel count for the available technology at the time, like the Nikon D3x (24 Megapixel and problematic performance) or the Canon 5Ds (Canons 50 Megapixel reaction to the Nikon D800).

With the 40 Megapixel sensor the motive is obviously 8K in 16:9 aspect ratio. Thats why its exactly 40 Megapixel. Not more, not less.

Therefore I have no clue what gives you the idea
...Show more

The 5Ds was not a step backwards from the previous sensor generation. Prior to its introduction there was no separate 5D high-MP sensor fork from Canon. I had both of those cameras — the 5DII (and before that the 5D) and then the 5DsR.

It was the first sensor in the high-MP fork from Canon, and as such it intentionally pushed photo site resolution much farther at the expense of high IS and noise specifically for those who wanted/needed the higher resolution but not the high ISO performance.

The next-generation-of-equivalent-sensor thread in that line goes: 5D->5DII->5DIII->5DIV->R5 (We could make an argument that the 1Ds models could fit into that progression, too.)

So far, the next-generation-equivalent-sensor thread for the 5Ds/5DsR includes just that single pair of cameras using the 50MP sensor. I'm anticipating (wishing for?) the second step in that series to make it: 5Ds/5DsR->"R5s"

By the way, if you look at the 5D timeline, and see that sensor resolution essentially doubled from the 5DII/III to the R5 over this period, it shouldn't surprise us to see the 5Ds(R)/"R5s" sequence also double resolution with equal or better performance.

Dan

(Note: I think that the R5 raises an important question relative to sensor resolution for lots of people. 45MP is really quite high resolution, and the trade-offs between high resolution and quite high camera performance seem less significant there.)



Jun 26, 2022 at 10:02 AM
tgrantster
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


f_a_98 wrote:
In my opinion, I think Fuji got it wrong this time. Fuji should have only done one XH2 version (stacked)and two X-T5 versions (stacked and non stacked). The rest of the lineup could do the non-stacked.
Disappointed that XT5 would be non stacked.



Yeah I’m tending to agree. If the stacked sensor provides better continuous focus tracking that’s what I think most of the XT users are hoping for. More so than megapixels.



Jun 26, 2022 at 12:28 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


tgrantster wrote:
Yeah I’m tending to agree. If the stacked sensor provides better continuous focus tracking that’s what I think most of the XT users are hoping for. More so than megapixels.


The conundrum that Fujifilm has created for itself is that it presents the XH2 cameras as its flagship, but it wants that flagship to have as much resolution as the other cameras AND have the fastest AF, burst, and so forth. To do that, at least with current technology, they apparently felt that they had to produce two versions of the camera.

That's a problematic strategy, as Canon (even as a much larger company) discovered with their 1-series high MP cameras, which they ultimately discontinued in favor of their 5D series. Even Canon was unable to justify having two versions of their flagship.

I know that not everyone is going to agree with me, and only time will tell, but I think that the XH2 cameras, as well-equipped as they are, will not find a sufficiently large market to succeed — and that there's a very good chance that the XH2 will go the way of the XH1. Again, I'm not criticizing the functionality of these cameras, just the idea that there will be a sufficient market of them.

In my view, again subject to being shown to be wrong down the line, I think that it might have been smarter for Fujifilm to (as you suggest) divide the XT4 into two sub-lines and forego the XH2 experiment.

We'll see.

Dan



Jun 26, 2022 at 12:57 PM
Sauseschritt
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Just a general observation, but if the D3x and 5Ds (R) would have been good ideas -- there would have been successors.

I sure hope the 40 Megapixel sensor will perform nicely - but right now I'm not too optimistic.



Jun 26, 2022 at 03:46 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


There were successors to that idea, and they were wildly successful. Unfortunately for Canon, they were made by Sony.

Sauseschritt wrote:
Just a general observation, but if the D3x and 5Ds (R) would have been good ideas -- there would have been successors.

I sure hope the 40 Megapixel sensor will perform nicely - but right now I'm not too optimistic.




Jun 26, 2022 at 04:08 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Sauseschritt wrote:
Just a general observation, but if the D3x and 5Ds (R) would have been good ideas -- there would have been successors.

I sure hope the 40 Megapixel sensor will perform nicely - but right now I'm not too optimistic.


I cannot speak to the D3x but the 5Ds/5DsR was a very popular and useful camera that had a sensor that was significantly ahead of the competition among high MP FF sensors when it came out. To speculate about why there has been no successor from Canon so far, some possibilities:

1. You are correct. The 5Ds/5DsR was a terrible idea. No one is interested. Never was. Awful cameras. Dumb Canon!

2. 50MP is pretty high sensor resolution, and the technology to build a significantly higher photo site density FF sensor did not exist during the period between the introduction of the 5Ds/5DsR and the Canon's switch to mirrorless. (Going from 36MP to 60MP is a relatively big deal. Going from 50MP to 60MP would barely make a difference.) Because Canon was able to essentially equal (within 10%) the resolution of the 5Ds/5DsR in the R5, it was possible to hold off on introducing a new very high MP camera until a much higher resolution sensor becomes available.

3. There will be no very high MP sensor FF body from Canon in the foreseeable future, and the R5 is it. (I doubt this is the case.)

As to the 40MP Fujifilm sensor, given the history of virtually every move to next-generation higher MP sensors over the past 2+ decades, we can bet that all aspects of its performance will equal or exceed those of the 26MP sensor of the previous generation, and it will provide more resolution. At a minimum you can be optimistic. Virtual certainty is actually warranted.

Dan



Jun 26, 2022 at 05:29 PM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


molson wrote:
The stacked sensor seems to compromise dynamic range compared to non-stacked sensors (with the possible exception of the Sony A1). Fuji may not have wanted to trade image quality for speed for that model.


m43 20mp stacked sensor from Sony Semi (it is actually 80mp sensor - as it is quad-pixel AF - so there 4 separate sensels for each of 20mp) performs totally on par w/ their prev. non stacked 20mp (w/o any subsensels for AF) version = https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1X,Olympus%20System%20OM-1

and this is the most recent stacked sensor from Sony Semi that was put in actually selling camera that was tested... all A9*, A1/Z9 were earlier iterations of their technology... so it seems Sony Semi learns to do well - so hope is that 26mp stacked sensor they make for Fuji to use in X-H2S will be the same DR performer as is non stacked 26mp from X-T4



Jun 26, 2022 at 06:01 PM
mdude85
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Sauseschritt wrote:
With the 40 Megapixel sensor the motive is obviously 8K in 16:9 aspect ratio. Thats why its exactly 40 Megapixel. Not more, not less.

Therefore I have no clue what gives you the idea they would for sure have any new tech to compensate. This might very well not be the case. They just might think they need the 8K video to stay competitive.



Well 40 MP is not needed to deliver 8k video at 16:9. Plus, there's no evidence that the sensor is exactly 40 MP, but it probably will be somewhere in the 38-43 MP range.




Jun 27, 2022 at 11:11 AM
MJKoski
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Fuji has an overload of APS-C models. One is enough these days. Having many models (with similar components) just results in inability to serve the customers as components have gotten quite rare lately. 40MP stacked is of course the solution but there is none. Prices have gone through the roof as well. X-H2s costs a whopping 3000 euros in Finland. 3k€ for a crop body... Wowzer. Used A7R4 bodies go for ~2k€. Total failure.

36MP (8K) modern non-Bayer true-RGB APS-C without any x-trans gimmicks would be the best solution though. It would just left-handedly clean the table full of FF-bodies. Build computational features on that and win the game instantly.



Jun 28, 2022 at 02:50 AM
LeonD60
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Any thoughts on the how the 40mp XT/XH sensor will compare to the 50mp GFX sensor?

I'm asking from an image quality and not a performance perspective.



Jun 28, 2022 at 06:46 AM
Makten
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


LeonD60 wrote:
Any thoughts on the how the 40mp XT/XH sensor will compare to the 50mp GFX sensor?

I'm asking from an image quality and not a performance perspective.


What do you mean with "performance" if not image quality?

The GFX sensor is four times larger, which means it has a theoretical two stop advantage in light gathering at a certain aperture and shutter speed (assuming both sensors are of equal technology, which they probably won't be). Slower lenses means less aberrations at a certain DOF and/or noise level. Plus larger sensors are "easier" on lenses in general.



Jun 28, 2022 at 07:29 AM
MJKoski
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


You need top of the line crop lenses to get even close to 50MP 44x33mm sensor IQ and the lens needs to be capable to perform wide open to avoid diffraction issues. Still you have 10MP to catch. Otherwise the 50MP GFX wins hands down even with a potato lens.

Currently A1/Z7/9, Panasonic S1R and A7R4 with top lenses can deliver similar IQ. D850 from the DSLR-pool. Pentax K-1 superresolution wins against the GFX but so does Panasonic (with huge margin).

If X-T5 has superresolution then it's a good battle and may even beat it. But xtrans combined with superresolution is not likely(?). Pentax K-3 mk3 (26MP) and KP (24MP) are able to reach ~40MP FF (bayer) details when used with pixel-shift. It would be interesting to see Fuji offering superresolution in their crop bodies.



Jun 28, 2022 at 07:34 AM
LeonD60
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Makten wrote:
What do you mean with "performance" if not image quality?


By performance, I mean autofocus speed, frame rate, eye detection, etc.

I'm asking just about the image quality of the two sensors.



Jun 28, 2022 at 07:36 AM
MJKoski
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


Well, 50MP 44x33mm is CDAF with slow read rate. You better tie your subject to a chair in good light for the camera to catch up. It's kind of landscape camera sensor when it comes to speed. With the latest firmware GFX50R/S are quite reliable though. Just a bit slowpoke.

X100V AF is comparable to 50R/S. It's the lens dragging the setup down there. So if you have X100V or have tried one, they are close. I had 50/3.5 and 30/3.5 to compare.



Jun 28, 2022 at 07:59 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · XT5 to have 40mp sensor


LeonD60 wrote:
Any thoughts on the how the 40mp XT/XH sensor will compare to the 50mp GFX sensor?

I'm asking from an image quality and not a performance perspective.


A decent way to think about it is that it would be sort of like using a 160MP sensor and then cropping to produce an image that is half as wide and half as tall. (The 33x44 sensor is roughly equivalent to four 1.5x APS-C sensors.)

You cold look at it the other way, too. Taking four carefully positioned 40MP APS-C images and stitching them together could give you the equivalent of one 160M miniMF sensor image. (The current 100MP sensor comes close to doing this when compared to the current 26MP APS-C sensors.)

As to the general "how does it compare?" question, perhaps a more fundamental question might be, "will a 40MP APS-C camera produce an excellent image that works well for my photography?" rather than "which has the greatest theoretical resolution advantage?"

If you are never making prints larger than around 20" x 30" — and especially if you don't ever print that large or ever print at all — in my opinion there is virtually no real-world image quality advantage to the larger sensor camera. The small sensor camera will produce excellent results in a smaller package, at a lower cost, and with more flexible lens and other options.

This is not to say that the small camera equals the large camera on the specifications level — just that you won't see the effect of those advantages in photographs...but you will see the effects of high cost, larger size, fewer lenses, slower system, etc.

It is that old "horses for courses" mantra.

Dan



Jun 28, 2022 at 08:53 AM
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