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Next Sony APS-C Camera?

  
 
chez
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


jbegis wrote:
This is more true for landscape photography when using wide angle lenses and you need a large FOV.

For sports/wildlife photography (the crowd that most wants a high end APS-C) you don't need a more expensive lens due to the cropped body.

The difficult part of the optical design for a super telephoto is the aperture, not the FOV. If you look at the design MTF curves of a wide angle lenses, the performance degrades at the corners while this isn't the case for telephoto primes. They would never develop a prime supertelephoto for a cropped body.

A wildlife/action photographer could definitely
...Show more

Could you not use something like the A1 or A7R4 in crop mode and achieve the same?



Jun 23, 2022 at 02:28 PM
Iguana829
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


chez wrote:
Could you not use something like the A1 or A7R4 in crop mode and achieve the same?



Except the A1 is 6 g's



Jun 23, 2022 at 02:42 PM
chez
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


Iguana829 wrote:
Except the A1 is 6 g's


Iíve seen used A7R4 for under $2,000 and A7R3 for $1300.




Jun 23, 2022 at 03:04 PM
Craig Gillette
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


I think there are two "use" interests for adding aps-c bodies. One is getting current state of the art for general uses, the other is providing an alternative to the $3500 -$6000 bodies for at least some sports, nature, wildlife, etc.

The "body" argument is similar but not the same. One could advance the utility of the A6xxx bodies some with an improved finder, grip size and some controls without making it as big as an A7Riv. OTOH, there are some uses or users that, especially if using with larger/longer lenses, don't need or want to trade ease of use for a smaller size.



Jun 23, 2022 at 04:53 PM
chiron
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


itai195 wrote:
The A7C body is a train wreck, IMO.

There are some small FF lenses that approach APS-C size, but it's nowhere near the same selection.


Have you actually used the A7C body? I just travelled for three weeks using two A7C bodies and a selection of small Sigma and Sony lenses. It was a fabulous setup and the body was a joy to handle and use. I took them in preference to my A1 and A9 bodies and I would do it again tomorrow.

And I can't imagine why you think there is a better selection of small aps-c lenses than small e-mount full frame lenses. Just the Sigma i lenses, the Samyang tiny lenses, and the Loxia lenses refute that. And even the Batis lenses and the new 16-35/4 all fit very comfortably and handily on the A7C body. As well as lenses like the Sony 20/1.8, 24/1.4, 55/1.8, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/1.8, 28-60 zoom, and the Sony 35/2.8. Should I go on? Ok, I will--and the compact Sony 24/2.8, 40/2.5, and 50/2.5. And the Samyang 35/2.8. And the Sony 28/2.0. Etc.

Edited on Jun 24, 2022 at 08:32 AM · View previous versions



Jun 23, 2022 at 05:03 PM
wordfool
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


I fully expect Sony will respond the the "beatdown" by blowing Canon out of the water

Or look at it this way -- the R7 is the 7D Mk2 replacement that Canon users have been waiting in frustration for 5+ years (with years of 7D Mk3 speculation in between). So Canon took its sweet time, which makes me wonder why -- is it really that big a market? And did the 7D ever have a Sony equivalent? Not that I recall because Sony never really competed in the dSLR market. It just went ahead and dominated the FF mirrorless market instead, with Canon and Nikon taking years to catch up there.

The companies seem to have a distinct approach to market segmentation so it's hard to compare like with like IMO. Sony went all in on mirrorless early, while CaNikon have been weaning customers off their legacy dSLR systems.

So much as I'd love to see Sony make a more "pro" A6xxx replacement I'm not convinced it'll happen because in all these years of the 7D Mk2 existing the company hasn't done so. Instead we have the 21MP aps-c A1, the 26MP aps-c A7R4, the 24MP aps-c ZV-E10, and the 24MP aps-c A6600 (which is still a very capable stills camera but a bit of an ergonomic mess IMO).




Jun 23, 2022 at 05:22 PM
Choderboy
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


OK. So I should buy R7 and a wide to medium RF-S zoom to get more pixels on target for birds and wildlife. Noted.

jeffbuzz wrote:
Using small sensors for "reach" with full frame lenses is a false economy. You save money on the camera but pay more for a larger, heavier lens than is needed to cover the image area of the sensor. m43 and APS-C cameras make sense in combination with appropriate lenses optimized for the sensor resolution and size.

I bought an a6600 specifically to use the little Sigma 18-50mm DC DN which is a wonderfully tiny combination.




Jun 23, 2022 at 06:35 PM
icantbebigwill
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


If the 6600 was around $900ish used Iíd probably own one. When I bought my A9 used the 6600 wasnít really that far behind price wise, so the A9 just made so much more sense.

I think the R7 is a super solid camera. If Canon had affordable lenses available IE: Tamron 17-70 2.8 it would be a really appealing.



Jun 23, 2022 at 07:48 PM
itai195
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


Yep I have used the A7C and I find the A6600 body superior in many ways. The A7C has fewer customizable buttons and an articulating LCD, for example. I know Iíll need to compromise on my battle against articulating LCDs someday, but I havenít yet.

The lenses you listed - some are not particularly small and others donít match my use cases. The 24 GM? I mean relative to other full frame lenses of that spec itís small, but itís not small in absolute terms. I love the 20G and itís small for a FF lens, but the new 15 weighs almost half as much. Iím not interested in any lens with a power zoom. The 28-60 is small but you can get an 18-50/2.8 for apsc that gives more range and speed. The 85/1.8 again is small for a FF lens, but the Sigma 56/1.4 is much smaller. There are small MF lenses but those really arenít a match for my use case for a small camera (ie family and travel). Iíve not really been convinced by the performance of the small Samyang lenses at focal lengths that I like. Is there an FF lens similar to the 70-350? The Sigma I lenses also work on apsc and the 90, in particular, is more interesting to me as an apsc lens. One can cobble together a smallish FF kit, but itíd be full of compromises Iím not interested in making and generally still will be a bit larger than a comparable apsc kit. I just donít see the point for a minor improvement in sensor performance that most viewers of my photos will never notice.

Most people on this forum will live and die by full frame and I like it as well. But I think thereís still a great case to be made for apsc and itís nice to finally see Sony, Tamron, and Sigma really investing in it lately.

chiron wrote:
Have you actually used the A7C body? I just travelled for three weeks using two A7C bodies and a selection of small Sigma and Sony lenses. It was a fabulous setup and the body was a joy to handle and use. I took them in preference to my A1 and A9 bodies and I would do it again tomorrow.

And I can't imagine why you think there is a better selection of small aps-c lenses than small e-mount full frame lenses. Just the Sigma i lenses, the Samyang tiny lenses, and the Loxia lenses refute that. And even the Batis lenses
...Show more



Jun 23, 2022 at 09:34 PM
itai195
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


They took the A6k body style, which already had a lot of issues, and made it worse by removing buttons and making the LCD articulate. Of course it isnít the first product I dislike that also happens to sell well

Iíll admit to being a bit hyperbolic calling it a train wreck, but I hoped for better.

chez wrote:
In your opinion, what makes the A7c such a train wreck? It appears to be selling very well.




Jun 23, 2022 at 11:04 PM
 


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jbegis
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


chez wrote:
Could you not use something like the A1 or A7R4 in crop mode and achieve the same?


You totally could. A cropped version of the A1 would be much cheaper though. It may not make business sense for Sony, but that would be a nice option.



Jun 24, 2022 at 09:00 AM
aCuria
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


It has to be said that the example given here isnít a very good one.

If you want to match a full frame camera with a 24/1.4 attached in noise performance you need a 16mm lens faster than f/1.0 on apsc to match it

This is because the apsc sensor collects 2.2x less light, or 1.1 stops. You then need a lens 1.1 stops faster to break even in noise, AND to match the shallow depth of field. Therefore you need a 16mm f/0.9x lens, which afaik Sony doesnít make

Sony probably isnít going to make a 16/0.9x for apsc, because it zero sense for them to do so.

The market segment that demands such a lens is much more likely to have a full frame camera and 24GM.

So yes, the 15/1.4 weighs half, but the apsc camera + that lens ends up half as bright because it has half the sensor area

itai195 wrote:
Yep I have used the A7C and I find the A6600 body superior in many ways. The A7C has fewer customizable buttons and an articulating LCD, for example. I know Iíll need to compromise on my battle against articulating LCDs someday, but I havenít yet.

The lenses you listed - some are not particularly small and others donít match my use cases. The 24 GM? I mean relative to other full frame lenses of that spec itís small, but itís not small in absolute terms. I love the 20G and itís small for a FF lens, but the new 15
...Show more



Jun 24, 2022 at 09:44 AM
Iguana829
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


icantbebigwill wrote:
If the 6600 was around $900ish used Iíd probably own one. When I bought my A9 used the 6600 wasnít really that far behind price wise, so the A9 just made so much more sense.

I think the R7 is a super solid camera. If Canon had affordable lenses available IE: Tamron 17-70 2.8 it would be a really appealing.


Yup. Canon has no lenses, and sony's bodies are overpriced for ~6 year old tech



Jun 24, 2022 at 09:59 AM
chez
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


Iguana829 wrote:
Yup. Canon has no lenses, and sony's bodies are overpriced for ~6 year old tech


Man lifeís hard for youÖhow can one even take a decent photo with such mediocre equipment.



Jun 24, 2022 at 10:03 AM
A.Y.
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


Iguana829 wrote:
It's mostly just video specs. The 6600 DOES take fantastic images. But 4k30 8 bit is not very 2022 for video specs is it?


I totally agree it's time for Sony to deliver 4K60p in APS-C bodies like Fuji and Canon.

4K60p advantages:
ē 1/120sec or faster shutters can be used to drastically reduce motion blur in video frames = sharper frames.
ē ND filters are not absolutely needed on sunny day since higher shutters can be used and videos will be smooth.
ē More frames for slow motion.
ē Video frames are sharp and can be used as still photos good enough for social media when taking photos and videos at the same time is not possible.

4K30p disadvantages:
ē 1/60sec or slower shutters are needed to add motion blur to reduce the choppy appearance = soft frames.
ē ND filters are needed on sunny day so that 1/60sec shutter can be used to add motion blur to smooth out the video.
ē Noticeably choppy panning shots and choppy slow motion.
ē Video frames are soft due to slow shutter & motion blur.













For this once-in-a-lifetime moment diving with 3 huge whale sharks, I only have video from a GoPro. Fortunately, these 4K60p frames are sharp enough for social media. If this panning shot, following the closest shark, was done in 4K30p or worse 4K24p, the other 2 whale sharks and smaller fish would have been very motion blurred.

This is why 4K60p is so important to me and many who understand the differences it can make.

Edited on Jul 13, 2022 at 07:59 PM · View previous versions



Jun 25, 2022 at 03:21 PM
duncang
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


A.Y. wrote:
Sony A6400 (2019) and A6600 (2020) have been out of stock for months now even though A6400 production has resumed!

Personally, I will purchase another Sony only if the new APS-C camera has:
ē 4K60p video
ē EVF - so no ZV-EXX vlogging camera
ē Updated Animal Eye AF
ē Small & lightweight like the current A6XXX line

----------------------------------------

Wildlife Photography - FF vs. APS-C = 2X cost 2.4X weight:
ē Sony A7C + Tamron 150-500mm = $3,197, 2,389g (5lb 4oz)
ē Sony A6100 + 70-350mm (105-525mm FF) = $1,646, 1,021g (2lb 4oz)
ē the 24MP A7C Crop Mode = 10MP resolution vs. 24MP A6100
ē FF 57MP = Crop Mode
...Show more

If the R7/100-400 combination can match the a6400/70-350 combination I will be impressed. Unfortunately I think the higher pixel density is going to make it difficult to get good detail

Hope for the R7/100-400


































Jun 25, 2022 at 04:58 PM
duncang
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


chez wrote:
Iíve seen used A7R4 for under $2,000 and A7R3 for $1300.



In theory the R7 autofocus might be better than the AF on these two. Early reports appear to be somewhat lacklustre though.

I will be interested in the animal eye af for video and the supposedly better canon IBIS for video. No replacement for any FF camera but perhaps a replacement for the a6400 until Sony's stacked sensor aps-c camera gets released.



Jun 25, 2022 at 05:10 PM
octo
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


jeffbuzz wrote:
...
There is no longer a strong market incentive to build full size bodies with small sensors. 20 years ago the sensor was the most expensive component in a camera. That's no longer the case.
...


This depends on the sensor. If a stacked sensor is used, then it's definitely the most expensive component in the camera. That's the reason we're not seeing it in less expensive cameras. That's why the new Fuji APS-C costs $2500, because of the sensor inside. That's also the reason the A1 is so expensive, and even non stacked sensors but high MP ones are expensive.

Curious what you think is more expensive than the sensor in a camera?



Jun 25, 2022 at 05:20 PM
chez
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


octo wrote:
This depends on the sensor. If a stacked sensor is used, then it's definitely the most expensive component in the camera. That's the reason we're not seeing it in less expensive cameras. That's why the new Fuji APS-C costs $2500, because of the sensor inside. That's also the reason the A1 is so expensive, and even non stacked sensors but high MP ones are expensive.

Curious what you think is more expensive than the sensor in a camera?


The final price of a camera is largely dictated by what the market will bear. All manufactures segment their cameras into high end, middle range and low end...and quite often artificially throttle back on capabilities so the camera fits into that market segment. Yes the sensor is most likely the most expensive component...but I don't believe it's the driving factor when manufactures determine their pricing.



Jun 25, 2022 at 06:23 PM
Iguana829
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Next Sony APS-C Camera?


chez wrote:
The final price of a camera is largely dictated by what the market will bear. All manufactures segment their cameras into high end, middle range and low end...and quite often artificially throttle back on capabilities so the camera fits into that market segment. Yes the sensor is most likely the most expensive component...but I don't believe it's the driving factor when manufactures determine their pricing.


Artificially holding cameras back is so annoying. Like why can't the r10 do c-log for example? Or even uncropped 4k60. It has the same dang Digic X Processor! With LESS MP




Jun 27, 2022 at 09:00 AM
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