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Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

telyt
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

ChrisMak wrote:
... I am sure that if Sony came out with a high quality 500 or 600mm lens with diffractive optics at around 5000-6000,- and at much smaller size and weight, Sony shooters would be all over it, and wonder how they ever got along without it. But since Sony does not make these lenses, and are not showing the faintest sign that they are ever planning to make them, the attitude amongst Sony shooters will predominantly and inevitably be, that these are unneccessary or superfluous lenses, and Sony has all you will ever need in all focal lengths. Such is...Show more →

I suggest you stick with the facts and not assume so much about people who use Sony equipment.

I won't presume to speak for others but speaking only for myself as a delighted 600 GM user, lightweight E-mount long lenses such as those recently announced by Nikon would be welcomed.

I was looking forward to the Z9 specs, hoping to put a lightweight long-hike kit together with a PF lens but the Z9 turned out to be much too big & heavy for my uses. I'd rather use the Sony 200-600 and the Sony body I already have than spend $thousands for a Z9 & PF that offers negligible weight advantage, if any.

Jun 23, 2022 at 08:54 AM

osv2
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

ChrisMak wrote:
Still, Sony seems to have lost interest to innovate beyond the 200mm focal length

"innovate"? nikon charging $6500 for a cheap inefficient stepper motor lens like the 800pf is ridiculous, if sony does pf lenses they will be better, with real focus motors... nikon desperately needs linear focus motors, not rotational stepper focus motors that other companies use in their cheapest junk lenses.

same thing with the z9, it's a half-baked 1st-gen boat anchor with no mechanical shutter and still no hi-frequency led flicker reduction, among many other shortcomings... nikon had to cover up the poor watt-hour battery life with a giant battery that's over 2x bigger than the sony battery, etc.; the list of things that nikon failed to innovate on is long, and it's why they are in a distant 3rd-place in the ff market.

Jun 23, 2022 at 09:43 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

osv2 wrote:
"innovate"? nikon charging $6500 for a cheap inefficient stepper motor lens like the 800pf is ridiculous, if sony does pf lenses they will be better, with real focus motors... nikon desperately needs linear focus motors, not rotational stepper focus motors that other companies use in their cheapest junk lenses.

same thing with the z9, it's a half-baked 1st-gen boat anchor with no mechanical shutter and still no hi-frequency led flicker reduction, among many other shortcomings... nikon had to cover up the poor watt-hour battery life with a giant battery that's over 2x bigger than the sony battery, etc.; the list of...Show more →

Ah, osv2 once again with his misinformation about focus motors. Simply put the quality of the motor is not determined by the type of motor. It is nowhere near as simple as linear motors are good and stepper motors are bad. Steppers motors can be very good if the lens is designed with small focussing groups and stepper motor or motors have sufficient power to mover that focus group quickly. An under powered linear motor to move a big focussing group can also be bad. Both linear and stepper motors can be very good provided they have enough power to move the focussing group quickly. Small focussing groups make that a lot easier. Linear motors can have more power than stepper motors so they are especially beneficial when the focussing group is heavier, but if the focussing group is small enough or if you use multiple stepper motors the advantage of linear motors can disappear and even be reversed depending on the specifications of the particular motor or motors being used.

I won't even comment on the ridiculous Z9 statements. The Z9 isn't perfect, but osv2's analysis is some biased it literally makes me laugh. Every one of his posts in the Nikon forum drips with bias and obvious disdain for Nikon.

Jun 23, 2022 at 09:59 AM

ChrisMak
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

telyt wrote:
I suggest you stick with the facts and not assume so much about people who use Sony equipment.

I won't presume to speak for others but speaking only for myself as a delighted 600 GM user, lightweight E-mount long lenses such as those recently announced by Nikon would be welcomed.

I was looking forward to the Z9 specs, hoping to put a lightweight long-hike kit together with a PF lens but the Z9 turned out to be much too big & heavy for my uses. I'd rather use the Sony 200-600 and the Sony body I already have than spend $thousands...Show more →

You are right of course, so take my words with a pinch of salt.

Still, I am not sure I am assuming a lot, since what I describe seems to happen an awfull lot. But for the sake of sticking to the facts I will say you are very right.

Jun 23, 2022 at 10:19 AM

osv2
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

ChrisMak wrote:
Yes Sony lacks 300mm f2.8 and f4 lenses, but they also lack any kind of 500mm lens. I used to shoot a Sigma 500mm lens

i guess that i missed the part where canikon released fast 300mm & 500mm primes in milc mounts? it's in such great demand after all

you can use the sigma 500/4 mc-11 on e-mount, it works well there.

dprtv on this nikon 400/4.5: "i wouldn't say that it's the fastest focusing lens that i've seen here... i wonder what kind of focus motor we actually have in this lens?"

Jun 23, 2022 at 10:47 AM

saaketham
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

osv2 wrote:
nikon charging $6500 for a cheap inefficient stepper motor lens like the 800pf is ridiculous
same thing with the z9, it's a half-baked 1st-gen boat anchor with no mechanical shutter and still no hi-frequency led flicker reduction, among many other shortcomings

Wow ..

Jun 23, 2022 at 11:19 AM

jwolfe
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

Jun 23, 2022 at 11:25 AM

AGeoJO
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

Choderboy wrote:
It's money.
These Nikons are priced between the 600f4 and the 200-600 / 150-600 lenses.
The 500 5.6 PF costs around twice the price of Sony 200-600.
The Sony 600 f4 costs about 9 times the Sony 200-600.

Sony 200-600mm lens costs $2,000 and GM 600mm costs $13,000 here is in the US. Both are brand new and for retail. The zoom lens can be had for less and it is widely available. I am not sure over there but I assume that price relation should roughly apply there as well. In other words, it is hard to believe that the GM lens is priced 9X that of the zoom lens.

Choderboy wrote:
There are many people who can't afford or are not willing to spend the money the 400 2.8 or 600 f4 cost and want something that sits in the huge gap between the traditional offerings. I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting that.
So there's nothing wrong with you, or those paying interest in Nikon's unique lenses.
Small size and weight is also a feature of these Nikons which may also be attracting interest.

Steve Spencer wrote:
There is nothing wrong with you, but you can afford the $13,000 600 GM, and you are happy with its size. Not everyone can afford such a very expensive lens nor does everyone want a lens that big. For me and my needs (long lens shooting is less than 10 percent of what I do) it is just way too expensive and it is much much larger than what I want to use. That leave limited option with Sony, at least for now. In contrast this new 400 f/4.5 from Nikon is the size I would like and I...Show more →

I understand that completely. That’s where the G 200-600mm lens comes in. Its long end is longer than the 400mm f/4.5 lens. It is heavier, I understand, but combined with the A1, the total package is about the same as the 400mm f/4.5 lens plus the Z9. It is a tad slower but if you use a TC on the 400mm f/.4.5 lens, the aperture is about the same and at 600mm, it is still a tad longer focal length-wise. And it is a zoom lens with a very short zoom throw where you can compose conveniently without putting on or taking off any TC. And that is big in my book.

I am sorry but I fail to see the attraction of that Nikon 400mm f/4.5 lens with the G 200-600mm at hand. Yes, that applies to me. Your mileage may vary and I respect that.

Jun 23, 2022 at 11:28 AM

ChrisMak
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

saaketham wrote:
Wow ..

. It's been a while since there was a cross-forum thread. So much hatred towards the z9 and stepper motors.

It's an awesome camera, according to Buy & Sell here - with folks forking over > retail to get one.
While the even more awesome A1 ads seem to languish for days/weeks before getting sold.
I am tempted to get a z9 to try one and sell later, but folks are asking $6000 for it .. and they're getting every cent too, I think.

The fact that the Z9 sells the day it is put up for sale, will have to do with the fact that there is no stock anywhere still, en when buying new, you will face an uncertain waiting time 8 months after its release.
The A1 is in stock literally everywhere, so no need to rush for a used copy...

Regarding AF speed, I believe Steve Perry, who owns both the Sony 600GM and the Nikon 800PF, said in a recent interview that there was not much between them regarding AF speed.
Sony linear AF motors are great, the 35GM has dual XD linear motors, silent and deadly accurate, but if other AF motors get the job done, who cares....

Jun 23, 2022 at 11:56 AM

jwolfe
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

If you’re a sports shooter and want a prime this is a superb lens. I don’t see it for wildlife. If you don’t need 2.8 or can’t afford it this lens will be a great companion. Much like many of the sports shooters switched to the 200-400 zooms for the same reason.

AGeoJO wrote:
Sony 200-600mm lens costs $2,000 and GM 600mm costs $13,000 here is in the US. Both are brand new and for retail. The zoom lens can be had for less and it is widely available. I am not sure over there but I assume that price relation should roughly apply there as well. In other words, it is hard to believe that the GM lens is priced 9X that of the zoom lens.

I understand that completely. That’s where the G 200-600mm lens comes in. Its long end is longer than the 400mm f/4.5 lens. It is heavier, I understand,...Show more →

Jun 23, 2022 at 12:06 PM

AGeoJO
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

jwolfe wrote:
If you’re a sports shooter and want a prime this is a superb lens. I don’t see it for wildlife. If you don’t need 2.8 or can’t afford it this lens will be a great companion. Much like many of the sports shooters switched to the 200-400 zooms for the same reason.

You mean the 200-600mm lens? I disagree, it is a superb performer for wildlife. There is a big image thread here in the Sony forum, boasting over 6,000 posts, where good 80-90% of images is that of wildlife, including birds. I use that lens quite a bit and yes, for wildlife. From the price point, it is a great entry lens into wildlife photography for Sony shooters.

Jun 23, 2022 at 12:24 PM

osv2
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

jwolfe wrote:
If you’re a sports shooter and want a prime this is a superb lens.

not with those slow stepper motors in it.

if steppers were good for sports nikon would have put steppers in their new 400/2.8 tc, but they didn't, they developed their first linear voice coil af motor for that lens... even nikon has it's limits with cutting corners.

jwolfe wrote:
I don’t see it for wildlife.

that's one of the few use cases for this 400/4.5... light weight so you can hike with it, assuming that nikon finally figures out that the market really wants lightweight stacked sensor bodies instead of z9 boat anchors.

jwolfe wrote:
If you don’t need 2.8 or can’t afford it this lens will be a great companion. Much like many of the sports shooters switched to the 200-400 zooms for the same reason.

people who shoot sports know that zooms and primes have different use cases, they are not all that interchangeable... among other things the 200-400/4 ef lens weighs 8 pounds and it's $11.1k, it has nothing in common with this nikon 400/4.5

Jun 23, 2022 at 12:42 PM

jwolfe
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

AGeoJO wrote:
You mean the 200-600mm lens? I disagree, it is a superb performer for wildlife. There is a big image thread here in the Sony forum, boasting over 6,000 posts, where good 80-90% of images is that of wildlife, including birds. I use that lens quite a bit and yes, for wildlife. From the price point, it is a great entry lens into wildlife photography for Sony shooters.

No. I was talking about sports photographers using the Nikon and Canon 200-400's. Most of the pros switched to those for day games.

Sony shooters are using the 400mm 2.8.

For the vast majority of what I shoot 400mm is way too short. 600mm is rarely enough.

Edited on Jun 23, 2022 at 01:14 PM · View previous versions

Jun 23, 2022 at 01:08 PM

jwolfe
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

osv2 wrote:
not with those slow stepper motors in it.

if steppers were good for sports nikon would have put steppers in their new 400/2.8 tc, but they didn't, they developed their first linear voice coil af motor for that lens... even nikon has it's limits with cutting corners.

that's one of the few use cases for this 400/4.5... light weight so you can hike with it, assuming that nikon finally figures out that the market really wants lightweight stacked sensor bodies instead of z9 boat anchors.

people who shoot sports know that zooms and primes have different use cases, they are not all that...Show more →

Good lord man. You have a serious Nikon hating problem.

Have you actually shot with the 800mm pf? Specs never tell the whole story. The 200-500 has an ultrasonic motor and it's slow as heck. By contrast, the 70-300mm af-p is a stepper motor and it's the fastest focusing lens in my bag.

Sports shooters typically use 300mm 2.8, 400mm 2.8 and 600mm f4's alongside the 200-400's. It depends on what they are shooting. The most common at games now are the 200-400 and 400 2.8.

But I can tell you there's a lot folks who are students/part-time shooters/parents who have no need or can't afford big glass that will buy this lens in droves. As well as pros who want a smaller lens for remotes/second bodies etc.

Jun 23, 2022 at 01:13 PM

osv2
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

jwolfe wrote:
Good lord man. You have a serious Nikon hating problem.

Have you actually shot with the 800mm pf? Specs never tell the whole story. The 200-500 has an ultrasonic motor and it's slow as heck. By contrast, the 70-300mm af-p is a stepper motor and it's the fastest focusing lens in my bag.

Sports shooters typically use 300mm 2.8, 400mm 2.8 and 600mm f4's alongside the 200-400's. It depends on what they are shooting. The most common at games now are the 200-400 and 400 2.8.

But I can tell you there's a lot folks who are students/part-time shooters/parents who have no need...Show more →

sony had a huge support booth at the last olympics without any native 200-400, 300/2.8, 500/4, no pf lenses, etc., so don't give us that nonsense about what you think that sports shooters are using.

the 200-500 was weak sauce at best and it has ultrasonic ring af, which is again not a linear af motor... nikon has never made a linear ultrasonic motor, but sony and canon both have that technology, aka nano-usm and ddssm.

even you should be able to see a pattern there; the leading companies have tech that nikon doesn't have, and this 400/4.5 & 800pf won't change that... it's unfortunately a lost opportunity by nikon, and no doubt they'll fail again when they put slow stepper motors in their upcoming 200-600z lens.

Jun 23, 2022 at 02:07 PM

jwolfe
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

osv2 wrote:
sony had a huge support booth at the last olympics without any native 200-400, 300/2.8, 500/4, no pf lenses, etc., so don't give us that nonsense about what you think that sports shooters are using.

the 200-500 was weak sauce at best and it has ultrasonic ring af, which is again not a linear af motor... nikon has never made a linear ultrasonic motor, but sony and canon both have that technology, aka nano-usm and ddssm.

even you should be able to see a pattern there; the leading companies have tech that nikon doesn't have, and this 400/4.5 & 800pf won't change...Show more →

Umm I was a professional sports photographer for 20 years, and a media executive. I've shot for Sports Illustrated, the New York Times etc. So I know what I'm talking about. I still have a lot of friends shooting professionally. Sony has very little market share with pro sports shooters. Mostly because they either have six figures wrapped up in gear, or their employer has a huge amount of Canon or Nikon gear.

So maybe you should stick to talking about things you actually know about and stop being internet troll.

Jun 23, 2022 at 02:28 PM

Gary Irwin
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

osv2 wrote:
"innovate"? nikon charging $6500 for a cheap inefficient stepper motor lens like the 800pf is ridiculous, if sony does pf lenses they will be better, with real focus motors...

Well, since Sony has absolutely nothing even remotely like the 800pf -- in any design or at any price -- this is an academic argument. Nothing to see here folks...move on.

Jun 23, 2022 at 03:37 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

AGeoJO wrote:
Sony 200-600mm lens costs $2,000 and GM 600mm costs $13,000 here is in the US. Both are brand new and for retail. The zoom lens can be had for less and it is widely available. I am not sure over there but I assume that price relation should roughly apply there as well. In other words, it is hard to believe that the GM lens is priced 9X that of the zoom lens.

I understand that completely. That’s where the G 200-600mm lens comes in. Its long end is longer than the 400mm f/4.5 lens. It is heavier, I understand,...Show more →

For me that the 400 f/4.5S is 865g (almost 2 lbs) lighter than the 200-600G is a big deal. In fact, the 200-600 G is closer in weight to the 600 GM than it is to the 400 f/4.5. If Sony had a lens like the 400 f/4.5S, I would sell the 200-600 G in a heartbeat for it. Partly a 400 f/4.5 matches my needs very very well. For such a lens I would have two primary uses.

First, I would use the bare lens for shooting my son playing field sports like soccer and the light weight and the fairly wide aperture would be a exactly what I would be looking for. Sure I can shoot the 200-600G for this type of action, but the slow aperture (a whole stop slower) and the big size of the lens are impediments and especially so as the light gets dim toward dusk.

Second, I would use the lens occasionally for wildlife and for this type of shooting I would in most instance use the 1.4X TC. Having the 200-600 G, I think it is a little short of 600mm anyway (and I have heard others suggest the same thing), so we are talking a tiny difference is optical capability between the 400 f/4.5 plus a 1.4x TC and the 200-600 G, and even with the 1.4X TC the 400 f/4.5 is about a pound and a half lighter.

Now it is totally true that unless Nikon builds a smaller camera with close to the capability of their Z9, the smaller size doesn't gain you much as you have to use a really big camera, but if Nikon makes such a camera, which seems at least plausible then the smaller size of the Nikon lenses starts to be a lot more compelling. On the flip side if Sony builds some smaller, slower aperture lenses and they fit my needs (as I hope) I am very likely to stay with Sony. Basically Sony has the cameras I like, but increasingly Nikon has the long lenses that I like. Whoever can get both pieces in place will likely have my loyalty and for now I am going to stick with Sony. In a couple of years, however, if Sony still has only the relatively big 200-600 G in my price range and Nikon has a smaller stacked sensor camera with fast sensor scan speed, then I will likely go Nikon.

Jun 23, 2022 at 05:33 PM

osv2
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

jwolfe wrote:
Umm I was a professional sports photographer for 20 years, and a media executive. I've shot for Sports Illustrated, the New York Times etc. So I know what I'm talking about. I still have a lot of friends shooting professionally. Sony has very little market share with pro sports shooters. Mostly because they either have six figures wrapped up in gear, or their employer has a huge amount of Canon or Nikon gear.

So maybe you should stick to talking about things you actually know about and stop being internet troll.

yes, we can see that you are a legend in your own mind, but i'm not impressed with your film experience and whatever you claim to have done with dead print outlets, lol

you obviously know nothing about milc, which is why you have to resort to name-calling, the technical nature of this discussion is clearly way over your head... here is one example of your ignorance and your sony-bashing:

"I’m gonna be laughing my rear off at all you Sony fanboys when Canon and Nikon release their pro sports bodies and leave Sony in their dust. How many of you will switch systems (again)? I just chuckle at all the wasted money instead of being patient." https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1659354/7#15325370

Jun 23, 2022 at 05:38 PM

jwolfe
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Nikon 400mm f4.5 preview

Dude you are the absolute worst.

You’re petty. Some of us take actual pictures with our gear, not just troll on the internet.

I highly doubt you’ve ever been published or shot a professional game. Contrary to your delusions I have shot film, digital and mirrorless. And I have friends and colleagues shooting at premier publications who are shooting the Super Bowl, Olympics etc.

So go ahead and troll away. I don’t really care to spend anymore time wasting energy on someone so clueless.

osv2 wrote:
yes, we can see that you are a legend in your own mind, but i'm not impressed with your film experience and whatever you claim to have done with dead print outlets, lol

you obviously know nothing about milc, which is why you have to resort to name-calling, the technical nature of this discussion is clearly way over your head... here is one example of your ignorance and your sony-bashing:

"I’m gonna be laughing my rear off at all you Sony fanboys when Canon and Nikon release their pro sports bodies and leave Sony in their dust. How many of you will...Show more →

Jun 23, 2022 at 05:45 PM

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