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The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

flash
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

Desmolicious wrote:
It's not just the 'it's bigger than 35mm so it's medium format' argument.

It’s not just an argument. That’s the actual definition. It’s the middle sized film stocks. At what point does a knife become a machette?

It's the rendering differences that real medium format i.e 6x4.5 and bigger brings to an image. Shoot a portrait with a GFX, ands shoot the same one with a 35mm FF hi rez digicam. The biggest differences are maleability in the file, and extreme sharpness. It is actually hard pressed to see a difference as the physical size of the sensor is only a little bigger.

Now take that portrait with a 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 etc camera. The difference in rendering is striking, even if you acknowledge that the digicam's output is sharper etc. It's not about that. It's about the look...Show more →

I’m not arguing that it looks like 645. Heck, I call it miniMF for a reason as well.

As far as there being a difference, there is. It’s about the same difference as APSC to 135 format and we all know how the zealots like to go on about how different they look. Sure, it’s subtle and really at screen size you’d be hard pressed to see a difference but when you print at the sizes I do it’s there. If you shoot the HB 80mm or the GFX110 and print big, it’s definitely there. Sometimes subtle is important to the photographer.

It’s absolutely true that we used to shoot MF because lenses weren’t as good and bigger film meant more detail. And that’s not really the case any more. Even m43 has gobs of detail. We’re looking a subtleties now. Any one who collects 50mm lenses will get that.

But that’s not the only reason for shooting miniMF (happy with that?). Even the 7 year old X1D/645Z/GFX50 sensor has noticably more robust files than any current 135 format sensor. More DR. Less noise. If you push files hard the bigger sensor makes a lot of sense. You can do 1 hour exposures on it with no LENR with no issues.

It’s also a different ratio. So there’s that.

I do wish my M11 or SL2 looked exactly like my GFX, X1D or 645Z (I have them all). But they don’t. The bigger sensor files are deeper, cleaner and richer. They just are.

Gordon

ps: also I don’t get why we can’t discuss this. I have no issues with your point of view. I don’t think we’re being aggressive here. I’d have the same debate in person over a coffee or a beer. *let’s get back to photography*?? How much more photography can a debate get?

Jun 24, 2022 at 04:31 PM

SlowDriver
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

flash wrote:
I’m really keen on the X2D rumors

Not only the rumors about the X2D itself but 3 new lenses would be epic!

Jun 24, 2022 at 06:46 PM

genji
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

flash wrote:
Try this one:

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Film_sizes_and_designations

for an actual list of medium format sizes used over the years rather than a half researched blog page. The concept that medium format has to be cut from a 6cm roll is bullshit. Anything larger than 135 format and smaller than 4x5 in a roll film is medium format. Larger than 4x5 and in sheets is large format. 135 was traditionally called small format. There were dozens of larger than 135 and smaller than 645 formats over the years. All medium format.

We swap film for silicon and all conventions go out the window……

Gordon

Well, that list is both comprehensive and persuasive. I’m willing to acknowledge that 33x44mm is medium format on the condition that the micro four thirds sensor (whose imaging area of 17.3x13.0mm is almost the same as that of a 110 film frame) will from now on be referred to as subminiature.

Jun 24, 2022 at 07:01 PM

Jaree
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

>I do wish my M11 or SL2 looked exactly like my GFX, X1D or 645Z (I have them all). But they don’t. The bigger sensor files are deeper, cleaner and richer. They just are.

Agree. X1D's imaging chain produces output that is stunningly rich. When viewing X1D's images on a large monitor, I get "OMG" reaction from people who otherwise have no interest in cameras or gear. I also feel XCD lenses are on another level, in both build quality and absolute performance. Hopefully next version / X2D will add IBIS.

flash wrote:
It’s not just an argument. That’s the actual definition. It’s the middle sized film stocks. At what point does a knife become a machette?

I’m not arguing that it looks like 645. Heck, I call it miniMF for a reason as well.

As far as there being a difference, there is. It’s about the same difference as APSC to 135 format and we all know how the zealots like to go on about how different they look. Sure, it’s subtle and really at screen size you’d be hard pressed to see a difference but when you print at the sizes I do...Show more →

Jun 24, 2022 at 07:56 PM

rattymouse
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

Fred Miranda wrote:
Perhaps I'm missing something but I never understood why Fuji and Leica shooters butt-heads with each other. Such distinct camera system and shooting experience in my view.

If you open up your dictionary and look up the word insecure, you'll see a picture of a Fuji user.

Jun 24, 2022 at 07:59 PM

flash
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

genji wrote:
Well, that list is both comprehensive and persuasive. I’m willing to acknowledge that 33x44mm is medium format on the condition that the micro four thirds sensor (whose imaging area of 17.3x13.0mm is almost the same as that of a 110 film frame) will from now on be referred to as subminiature.

Well, 24x16 used to be called half frame, so why not. (That’s where the awful *full frame8 definition comes from).That’s very close to APSC. The original Olympus F was a half frame camera and shot in portrait orientation by default. Like a Bronica did for 645 in the 90’s.

110 and the various Minox formats were called miniature. The Minoxes also had the nickname *Spy Format*. 135 was small format and so on. Ultimately the only truely honest way is to list the sensor size in mm. 33x44 or 24x36 etc. Mind you like 645, four thirds does actually describe the sensor size. Unlike APSC etc. APSC was the film cassettes as much as the stock.

Personally I like miniMF because it says it’s larger but not as big as what most people think of when the hear medium format.

Gordon

Jun 24, 2022 at 11:19 PM

flash
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

SlowDriver wrote:
Not only the rumors about the X2D itself but 3 new lenses would be epic!

I’d sell a child for a longer zoom. 75-150 or 100-200. I don’t have young kids anymore but I’m sure I could get one from the local park…..

Gordon.

Jun 24, 2022 at 11:21 PM

rbf_
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

flash wrote:
Try this one:

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Film_sizes_and_designations

for an actual list of medium format sizes used over the years rather than a half researched blog page. The concept that medium format has to be cut from a 6cm roll is bullshit. Anything larger than 135 format and smaller than 4x5 in a roll film is medium format. Larger than 4x5 and in sheets is large format. 135 was traditionally called small format. There were dozens of larger than 135 and smaller than 645 formats over the years. All medium format.

We swap film for silicon and all conventions go out the window……

Gordon

This is exactly what I was taught by my father as well and he had no real reason to be deceptive with me about it. I like that Fujifilm and Hassy have managed to get 44x33 MF sensors into relatively small camera systems around the size of FF 35mm and I think that compactness is a benefit and miniMF is a good thing. It's still MF though. I had to lug around some of the bigger MF systems in the film days, not real fun when you're doing 4 weddings a weekend.

Jun 24, 2022 at 11:29 PM

SlowDriver
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

flash wrote:
I’d sell a child for a longer zoom. 75-150 or 100-200. I don’t have young kids anymore but I’m sure I could get one from the local park…..

Gordon.

I basically stopped buying new lenses because Hasselblad has been missing in action for more than 2 years now... An X2D and 3 new lenses would be very reassuring. I do not want to go through another debacle a la Leica CL/TL2.

Jun 25, 2022 at 07:52 AM

flash
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

SlowDriver wrote:
I basically stopped buying new lenses because Hasselblad has been missing in action for more than 2 years now... An X2D and 3 new lenses would be very reassuring. I do not want to go through another debacle a la Leica CL/TL2.

I tend to buy into systems once they do what I need now, rather than what might happen in the future, so my CL system will still function just fine.

Having said that, I think Leica is wrong here. They’re just IBIS away from a truely epic compact system and the 40MP APSC sensor is coming this year. There is nothing in APSC that comes close to the CL glass.

Maybe Sigma could come into that space. Panasonic has two systems already so it’s not for them.

Gordon

Jun 25, 2022 at 06:02 PM

SlowDriver
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

flash wrote:
Having said that, I think Leica is wrong here. They’re just IBIS away from a truely epic compact system and the 40MP APSC sensor is coming this year. There is nothing in APSC that comes close to the CL glass.

Not only that. No longer having FF and APS-C in the same mount puts the entire L-mount at a disadvantage against Canon, Sony and Nikon.

Leica didn't even have to design any new lenses anymore... Sigma already took care of that for them by releasing 4 lenses last year. One has to wonder whether these L-mount members even talk to each other.

Dumbest decision ever...

Jun 25, 2022 at 09:10 PM

pmeheut
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

flash wrote:
Having said that, I think Leica is wrong here. They’re just IBIS away from a truely epic compact system and the 40MP APSC sensor is coming this year. There is nothing in APSC that comes close to the CL glass.

I for one was waiting for the CL2 to see if I would invest in the system.
However, I wonder how big the market for APS is as most of the camera makers do have a rich offer and especially not a range of high-end lenses.
Just yesterday a friend and very experienced Nikon reseller was telling me that maybe they is room for only one system in APS and that slot is taken by Fuji.
Also, Leica is a small company with a surprisingly rich range of products and I guess they cannot do everything.

As much as I regret this decision and they way it was announced and handled, the rationale behind may very well be the right one.

Jun 25, 2022 at 11:35 PM

SlowDriver
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

pmeheut wrote:
As much as I regret this decision and they way it was announced and handled

It was actually never formally communicated... A document (intended for internal use only) was leaked...:
https://leicarumors.com/2022/05/17/it-seems-that-the-leica-cl-tl-systems-are-now-officially-discontinued.aspx/

Leica Store Miami said in one of their recent Leica Talks that it would appear "as if the Leica CL were discontinued..."

They also seemed to indicate that from a legal point of view you cannot say that the Leica CL has been discontinued as Leica has not formally confirmed that...

Legal threats do not seem to intimidate B&H though, they list it as Discontinued.

Jun 26, 2022 at 05:31 PM

genji
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

When I asked about the CL at the Leica Stoore Sydney yesterday, their inventory system showed it as “Obsolete” ie discontinued.

Jun 27, 2022 at 03:54 PM

Banongading
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

I recently picked up an X100v as an EDC alternative to my M10-P. I was quite excited to get it as I’ve shot and enjoyed previous X100 series cameras as well as X-Pro1,2 etc.

It’s a pretty camera - still not as pretty as an M in my eyes but in use I’m not keen. I don’t particularly like the files and the damn thing just vibrates and makes noises every time you focus it.

I think I’ll stick with the M10-P and just put the X100v on the shelf to look at… either that or sell it for more Leica glass! :-)

For sure the best Leica digital for me is a Leica digital!

Jul 04, 2022 at 10:17 AM

taemo
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

if you want a good autofocus digital camera then sure Fuji is a good option but if you want a digital rangefinder camera then really Leica is the only option.

I've owned all versions of the Fuji X100 series and still have the X100, IQ and color is great but I find the RF focus style of my M10 to be more my style.

no comment on the Q or SL series as I never cared for those lines, as to me Leica is more about the RF

Jul 04, 2022 at 10:41 AM

EVIL_guy
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · The Best Digital Leica For Many Normal People Is A Fuji

taemo wrote:
if you want a good autofocus digital camera then sure Fuji is a good option but if you want a digital rangefinder camera then really Leica is the only option...

100% d'accord!
Beside a similar look, a Fuji has nothing to do with a Leica M.
Fuji misses first of all the rangefinder and then other Leica M features like a FF sensor and manual lenses, rf coupled of course.

So this comparison (Leica M vs. Fuji X) is best case usable for a display cabinet.

Jul 04, 2022 at 11:40 AM

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