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How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 se...

  
 
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


gdanmitchell wrote:
As an observation, quite a bit of the thread is about the technical explanations of why folks expect the difference to be visible in prints rather than an objective look at whether real people can see differences in prints and at what sizes.

I read that someone reported that differences were supposedly apparent in 8" x 10" prints. I've been doing this for a while, and I've made a lot of prints from lots of different cameras, all the way back to film. I'm not buying that. I'm positive that, for example, no one would be able to tell which
...Show more

What I find so interesting Dan is that you are so quick to think others are engaging in motivated reasoning, but so slow to see your own potential for motivated reasoning. Public statements create one of the strongest forms of motivated reasoning to see information as consistent with those public statements. You have repeatedly made public statements and yet there is no acknowledgment that your public statements are creating motivated reasoning. You tell the same stories over and over again, but don't seem to even see the huge weaknesses in the stories and how they don't really support your public statements. Clear hallmarks of motivated reasoning. This story could indicate that people can't see much differences in prints, but it also could indicate nothing. It is after all just one test and the failure to see differences might be due to the content and the strategies you employed. Neither do you recognize that it is a lot harder to show that something (in this case differences in prints) doesn't exist than it is to show that it does exist, and because it is harder to show that something doesn't exist this test is at most a tiny step and basically an anecdote to demonstrating that you can't see differences. Neither do you recognize that thinking this test is in any way strong evidence could very well be the result of your own motivated reasoning.

By the way, read the post again. Dan Wells reports seeing differences in 8 X 10s when comparing APS-C cameras with the GFX100s. He reports seeing differences in the GFX100s and Sony A7r IV at 12 X 18 in some places and 16 X 24 in other places. Usually reporting something like in his tests differences can just be seen at 12 X 18, but seen clearly by 16 X 24..

Let me be clear, I am of course not without my own motivated reasoning. I own a GFX 50s, but I also own 2 FF 35mm cameras and my wife owns a third. I would say my motives are mixed but they aren't absent. What I see is two reports of tests that have very different conclusions. Both tests have their strengths and weaknesses. Both tests may be influenced by motivated reasoning both in the way the test was constructed and in the interpretation of the results. I don't think either test provides very strong information. So, I asked here for other people's experience. Will that be definitive? Not very likely, but I think more information is always better even if it is less than perfect and let's face it all information has its weaknesses.

As the OP, I have also appreciated all the technical information and it has helped my decide between upgrading to the GFX100s or the GFX50s II. So, I thank people for that information. I still haven't decided what I will do, but I think whatever decision I make it will be a more informed one now.



Jun 16, 2022 at 06:45 AM
mmm55
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Am I the only one here who doesn't compose perfectly every time and never has a need to crop? All of these "can you see a difference" tests are comparing the full image area. Maybe I'm just a hack, but with my 100S I've found some serendipitous areas of the original compositions that I've turned into beautiful photographs. It's not just the absolute number of pixels that matter, either. The differences become more apparent as you get closer to the edges and corners. Not so important for a portrait photographer, maybe, but for landscapes the advantages of 44x33 (and the GF glass) over FF are plainly evident.


Jun 16, 2022 at 07:56 AM
Makten
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


mmm55 wrote:
Am I the only one here who doesn't compose perfectly every time and never has a need to crop? All of these "can you see a difference" tests are comparing the full image area. Maybe I'm just a hack, but with my 100S I've found some serendipitous areas of the original compositions that I've turned into beautiful photographs. It's not just the absolute number of pixels that matter, either. The differences become more apparent as you get closer to the edges and corners. Not so important for a portrait photographer, maybe, but for landscapes the advantages of 44x33 (and the
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Indeed, and in some cases it lets you leave a longer lens at home. Just crop instead, if the lens is good enough.
The same thing can be said about closeups. If you want to get higher magnification than what your lens allows at MFD, you can crop instead.



Jun 16, 2022 at 08:12 AM
mdude85
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Some people go to wine tastings, while others go to photo crop comparison parties. To each his own I guess


Jun 16, 2022 at 10:14 AM
molson
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
The default sharpening that Lr applies to the GFX 50x images is slightly stronger than that applied to the a7RIV images.



My comparison shows just the opposite. Are you saying that LR is still applying some amount of "default" sharpening even when the sharpen slider is set to zero?



Jun 16, 2022 at 10:29 AM
molson
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


mdude85 wrote:
Some people go to wine tastings, while others go to photo crop comparison parties. To each his own I guess


You misspelled "whine"...



Jun 16, 2022 at 10:30 AM
JimKasson
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
My comparison shows just the opposite. Are you saying that LR is still applying some amount of "default" sharpening even when the sharpen slider is set to zero?


No, I'm talking about the default sharpening before you move the slider. One pixel width for the kernel for the GFX 50x is more sharpening (a bigger kernel) on a picture height basis (or a cycles/mm basis on the sensor) than one pixel width on the GFX 100x.



Jun 16, 2022 at 10:46 AM
molson
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
No, I'm talking about the default sharpening before you move the slider. One pixel width for the kernel for the GFX 50x is more sharpening (a bigger kernel) on a picture height basis (or a cycles/mm basis on the sensor) than one pixel width on the GFX 100x.


I was comparing it to the Sony A7R IVa, not the GFX 100S.



Jun 16, 2022 at 11:22 AM
JimKasson
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
I was comparing it to the Sony A7R IVa, not the GFX 100S.


The picture heights are 6192 for the GFX 50x, and 6336 for the a7RIV. The picture widths are 8256 for the GFX 50x, and 9504 for the a7RIV. So you can see that a 1-pixel kernel is bigger on a picture height or width basis for the GFX 50x, but not by much.



Jun 16, 2022 at 11:49 AM
JimKasson
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


I did a test that convinces me that, with the right technique and the right subject matter, you can see a difference betweent the GFX 50S and GFX 100S at small print sizes.

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/effect-of-camera-resolution-on-small-prints/







GFX 50S







GFX 100S




Jun 16, 2022 at 03:43 PM
 


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JimKasson
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


I stopped the lens down to f/8 to create less aliasing, and I changed the sinusoidal grating period to 20-40 pixels.







GFX 50S







GFX 100S




Jun 16, 2022 at 05:26 PM
rbf_
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
I stopped the lens down to f/8 to create less aliasing, and I changed the sinusoidal grating period to 20-40 pixels.



That's still some serious aliasing on the 50.



Jun 16, 2022 at 07:08 PM
JimKasson
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


rbf_ wrote:
That's still some serious aliasing on the 50.


That's the point of that post. A bit of diffraction can reduce the aliasing on the GFX 100S a lot, but on the GFX 50S, it's going to take more diffraction to do the job.



Jun 16, 2022 at 10:45 PM
bobby350z
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Maybe my eyes aren't as good as they used to be but in the real world shots, it is not as big of an issue as a lab test. I have used 50s for almost 5 yrs now and I have seen it in a couple of shots.


Jun 16, 2022 at 11:13 PM
JimKasson
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


bobby350z wrote:
Maybe my eyes aren't as good as they used to be but in the real world shots, it is not as big of an issue as a lab test. I have used 50s for almost 5 yrs now and I have seen it in a couple of shots.


Here's part of the reason:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/luminance-and-chromaticity-vs-spatial-frequency-part-2/

If there's little content above Nyquist, there will be little aliasing. The lab test was designed to invoke aliasing, and to do it in such a way that it was obvious.

The other side of the issue is your sensitivity to aliasing -- or lack of it. When we have regular patterns and false-color moiré, just about anyone can see that aliasing. In the absence of those, it takes knowing what the subject looked like (or what it couldn't possibly look like). Some people aren't sensitive to that, and I think the vast number of oversharpened, crispy images around now contributes to that. Sometime people actually like aliasing: consider the praise heaped on the IQ of fat-pixel MF cameras.




Jun 17, 2022 at 10:01 AM
JimKasson
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Here are iPhone photos of two 7x9 inch prints, one with the GFX 50S at f/8, and one with the GFX 100S at f/8. Can you tell the difference?













Jun 17, 2022 at 11:52 AM
molson
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
The other side of the issue is your sensitivity to aliasing -- or lack of it. When we have regular patterns and false-color moiré, just about anyone can see that aliasing. In the absence of those, it takes knowing what the subject looked like (or what it couldn't possibly look like). Some people aren't sensitive to that, and I think the vast number of oversharpened, crispy images around now contributes to that. Sometime people actually like aliasing: consider the praise heaped on the IQ of fat-pixel MF cameras.



If you're basing this assumption on the various images posted to social media and other web sites, are you taking into account the fact that most of these images receive extra sharpening when they are being downsized for the web, to compensate for compression and low-quality displays? If you don't have access to the original file, you can't be certain of anything.



Jun 17, 2022 at 12:10 PM
JimKasson
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
If you're basing this assumption on the various images posted to social media and other web sites, are you taking into account the fact that most of these images receive extra sharpening when they are being downsized for the web, to compensate for compression and low-quality displays? If you don't have access to the original file, you can't be certain of anything.


True sometimes, but DPR posters frequently post full-sized images, and DPR doesn't compress the files. When you download a file from DPR, it's a bit for bit copy of what you uploaded.

I think the notion that sharpening can compensate for compression is not founded in testing. Whenever I've done tests with discrete cosine transform compression, the two effects don't appear to cancel.



Jun 17, 2022 at 12:27 PM
molson
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
True sometimes, but DPR posters frequently post full-sized images, and DPR doesn't compress the files. When you download a file from DPR, it's a bit for bit copy of what you uploaded.


So you're tarring everyone with the same brush...

I think the notion that sharpening can compensate for compression is not founded in testing. Whenever I've done tests with discrete cosine transform compression, the two effects don't appear to cancel.

Whether it works or not, it's often done, and most photo processing software has some sort of default sharpening for images destined for the web, so someone must think there's a benefit to be derived from it.



Jun 17, 2022 at 12:35 PM
JimKasson
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
So you're tarring everyone with the same brush...

Whether it works or not, it's often done, and most photo processing software has some sort of default sharpening for images destined for the web, so someone must think there's a benefit to be derived from it.


As to tarring everyone with the same brush, Here's what I said: "I think the vast number of oversharpened, crispy images around now contributes to that." I didn't say all images were oversharpened and crispy.

Is it your assumption (or your assertion) that export sharpening depends on compression ratio? I've not found that to be the case. It usually depends on image size, though. With Lr, it's easy to turn that off. With Ps, you have to sharpen explicitly before writing the file.




Jun 17, 2022 at 12:49 PM
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